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This topic has moved here: Subject: Cross-account Bumping; it can go unnoticed
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Subject: Cross-account Bumping; it can go unnoticed

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Okay, so in this topic it is evident that by using multiple, separate browsers, users can have more than one account signed in at once.

This clearly proves that users can use their separate account to bump their topics. So unless the web team has not provided anything to counter this - or to identify and punish users who abuse this ability - moderators and above obviously have a method of tracking multiple-account-users.

Take Coup for example; that can track users. So if Bungie.net can trace cookies to ban alternate accounts linked to banned accounts, then there must be a method to track account links.

Imagine it as a web of users. The first account is in the centre, and around it are the alternate accounts. All of them are connected. And if one is banned, a log-in on any of the connected accounts causes the now logged-in alternate account to get banned.

Am I right?

  • 05.15.2012 5:46 AM PDT
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:)

Posted by: Bungie Sam
Is there even a way to link those accounts though? IPs are unreliable, as is the current cookie based system.

Edit. Wait... Are you saying that we shouldn't be able to log into two different accounts at once?

Meh, I'm tired

[Edited on 05.15.2012 5:54 AM PDT]

  • 05.15.2012 5:49 AM PDT

I did that a long ass time ago and then was tolled by a moderator that both my accounts could be permed for it....essentially I enjoy posting here....And yes, it can go unnoticed unless the user is making no attempt to camouflage themselves.

  • 05.15.2012 5:54 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: jross1993
Posted by: Bungie Sam
Is there even a way to link those accounts though? IPs are unreliable, as is the current cookie based system.
An account owned by you has previously been blacklisted, using a different account to avoid the blacklist is not permitted.Soul (thing that bans users)= S
Main account = M
Alternate account = A

If S bans A due to M being banned, S has to know that M and A are linked somehow. It is that link that can be used to track Account Webs.

  • 05.15.2012 5:54 AM PDT


Posted by: Bungie Sam
Posted by: jross1993
Posted by: Bungie Sam
Is there even a way to link those accounts though? IPs are unreliable, as is the current cookie based system.
An account owned by you has previously been blacklisted, using a different account to avoid the blacklist is not permitted.Soul (thing that bans users)= S
Main account = M
Alternate account = A

If S bans A due to M being banned, S has to know that M and A are linked somehow. It is that link that can be used to track Account Webs.
Doesn't that have something to do with the cookie?

  • 05.15.2012 5:56 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: jross1993
Edit. Wait... Are you saying that we shouldn't be able to log into two different accounts at once?
I'm saying two things;

1. This multiple accounts being logged in fact enables hidden bumping.
2. Moderators and above, or an automated tool, enables the knowledge of which accounts are connected

  • 05.15.2012 5:57 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: RC 1207 Sev
Doesn't that have something to do with the cookie?
Probably, so I'm saying that if the knowledge is there, then that can be used to track cross-account bumpers.

  • 05.15.2012 5:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: Bungie Sam
Soul (thing that bans users)= S
Main account = M
Alternate account = A

If S bans A due to M being banned, S has to know that M and A are linked somehow. It is that link that can be used to track Account Webs.

Not particularly.

When M is banned, the site implements generic cookie x into the browser. When the user tries to log into an alternate account, the site notices cookie x and automatically bans the user for 3 days.

Because it's generic, there's no real link.

*Source: When I was permabanned on this account a few years back, I tried to bypass it with an alt. Didn't learn about the cookie system until afterwards.

  • 05.15.2012 5:58 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: jross1993
When M is banned, the site implements generic cookie x into the browser. When the user tries to log into an alternate account, the site notices cookie x and automatically bans the user for 3 days.

Because it's generic, there's no real link.

*Source: When I was permabanned on this account a few years back, I tried to bypass it with an alt. Didn't learn about the cookie system until afterwards.
Do cross-browser log-ins enable blacklist bypasses? If so, then we have a big problem.

Furthermore, in your given example, would using another browser have bypassed the blacklist due to the other browser not having said cookie?

[Edited on 05.15.2012 6:00 AM PDT]

  • 05.15.2012 6:00 AM PDT

Posted by: jross1993
Posted by: Bungie Sam
Soul (thing that bans users)= S
Main account = M
Alternate account = A

If S bans A due to M being banned, S has to know that M and A are linked somehow. It is that link that can be used to track Account Webs.

Not particularly.

When M is banned, the site implements generic cookie x into the browser. When the user tries to log into an alternate account, the site notices cookie x and automatically bans the user for 3 days.

Because it's generic, there's no real link.

*Source: When I was permabanned on this account a few years back, I tried to bypass it with an alt. Didn't learn about the cookie system until afterwards.
I verify this to be true....every time I would log into my old account that is currently permabanned(at my request) I would forget about the cookie and ban myself again and again and again.

  • 05.15.2012 6:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: Bungie Sam
Posted by: jross1993
When M is banned, the site implements generic cookie x into the browser. When the user tries to log into an alternate account, the site notices cookie x and automatically bans the user for 3 days.

Because it's generic, there's no real link.

*Source: When I was permabanned on this account a few years back, I tried to bypass it with an alt. Didn't learn about the cookie system until afterwards.
Do cross-browser log-ins enable blacklist bypasses? If so, then we have a big problem.

If I'm banned on this account while using Firefox, I'm still able to log into an alternate account using Chrome, for example.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no real way to stop this.

  • 05.15.2012 6:01 AM PDT

Posted by: jross1993

Posted by: Bungie Sam
Posted by: jross1993
When M is banned, the site implements generic cookie x into the browser. When the user tries to log into an alternate account, the site notices cookie x and automatically bans the user for 3 days.

Because it's generic, there's no real link.

*Source: When I was permabanned on this account a few years back, I tried to bypass it with an alt. Didn't learn about the cookie system until afterwards.
Do cross-browser log-ins enable blacklist bypasses? If so, then we have a big problem.

If I'm banned on this account while using Firefox, I'm still able to log into an alternate account using Chrome, for example.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no real way to stop this.
It would be interesting if it could attack the machine you're using. But then again that's just another one of my crazy ideas.

  • 05.15.2012 6:04 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: jross1993
To the best of my knowledge, there is no real way to stop this.
It is highly likely that the moderators and above have contemplated this huge problem, don't you think?

  • 05.15.2012 6:06 AM PDT
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Posted by: Bungie Sam
Posted by: jross1993
To the best of my knowledge, there is no real way to stop this.
It is highly likely that the moderators and above have contemplated this huge problem, don't you think?

Indeed. After all, they're not stupid.

Because browsers don't share cookies (and even if they did, it's not hard to clear them), the only way to stop this (that I know of), would be to implement IP banning... Which as you probably know is unreliable in itself.

Alts are always going to be a problem... But I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Edited on 05.15.2012 6:12 AM PDT]

  • 05.15.2012 6:11 AM PDT

Cammalamm is the best.

External Links-
>My Photobucket page
>My Twitter account

Its under control... dont worry people have be able to do this forever ;)

  • 05.15.2012 6:29 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: zoobkillerninja
;)
How do you know?

  • 05.15.2012 6:43 AM PDT

"You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space." -Johnny Cash

I don't believe that anything will stop users from making alternate accounts to exploit things. As long as people can still delete their cookies and change their IP address, there's not really any way to stop them.

  • 05.15.2012 6:51 AM PDT

http://thexboxnetwork.com

There really is good way to prevent this; if there was a way the plugin or component would've been added already on this and other forum sites(At least not to my knowledge). Best thing we can do is just have an eye open.

  • 05.15.2012 7:24 AM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

I don't see why this is such a big problem, considering that most bumps would be indistinguishable from genuine posts and thus contributing to the discussion.

Please explain why this is a "huge" problem.

  • 05.15.2012 7:43 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
I don't see why this is such a big problem, considering that most bumps would be indistinguishable from genuine posts and thus contributing to the discussion.

Please explain why this is a "huge" problem.
Topics can be revived from being inactive - obviously before the topic reaches the 'necrobumpable' stage - by an alternate account, disrupting the true discussions and bringing back topics which obviously did not generate enough discussion and interest to still be active.

  • 05.15.2012 8:20 AM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: Bungie Sam
Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
I don't see why this is such a big problem, considering that most bumps would be indistinguishable from genuine posts and thus contributing to the discussion.

Please explain why this is a "huge" problem.
Topics can be revived from being inactive - obviously before the topic reaches the 'necrobumpable' stage - by an alternate account, disrupting the true discussions and bringing back topics which obviously did not generate enough discussion and interest to still be active.
If a topic does not generate interest then it would subside back to the bottom of the page naturally. I do not view bumping as an issue, as 'true' discussions would be indistinguishable from untrue ones. If a topic is rich, it will thrive, but even bumping cannot revive certain topics.

While the cookie system is certainly easier to circumnavigate than an IP ban, both are relatively easy to circumvent. The fact that the cookie ban exists works as an effective deterrent because you can see it's impact right now. There is not wide-spread chaos throughout the forums, no mass numbers of bumps or users getting around bans. Sure, some may be doing so, but their presence is difficult to distinguish from that of a regular member.

While you may have just realized the limitations of the login feature, it has been common knowledge for many years. People have exploited it, people have discussed improving it, yet ultimately little damage is to be found today.

[Edited on 05.15.2012 8:30 AM PDT]

  • 05.15.2012 8:28 AM PDT

The WorkPLace

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
And Cobravert is absolutely correct.

Posted by: Der Todesengel
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and Cobra."
- Der

Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
I don't see why this is such a big problem, considering that most bumps would be indistinguishable from genuine posts and thus contributing to the discussion.

Please explain why this is a "huge" problem.

It's normally only an issue when there is hardcore trolling or a flame war going on like a couple weeks ago, when it was group warfare on 'who is the most active group'. Then the alts came out of the woodwork.

  • 05.15.2012 8:30 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

Posted by: Duck duck DEATHOkay you win. The most we get is spam once every 4+ months.

  • 05.15.2012 8:33 AM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: Bungie Sam
Posted by: Duck duck DEATHOkay you win. The most we get is spam once every 4+ months.
The issue is that the login system security isn't perfect. But ultimately, when it comes down to it, if a user is truly hell-driven to post, they will do so. IP-bans can be dodged via proxy or router adjustments. Windows Live accounts can be made as easily as guerrillamail accounts.

If a user cares enough to dodge a cookie ban, they will likely care enough to get around any other obstacles we place in their way.

  • 05.15.2012 8:38 AM PDT

The fact that alts can be made to bypass a ban isn't new, but it isn't exactly a big problem. They always get banned in the end. Ask BJ, he'll tell you the same.

  • 05.15.2012 8:45 AM PDT

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