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  • Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted? Updated: Adding Forum
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted? Updated: Adding Forum

Key


Posted by: x Foman123 x
I would be in favor of something like this. It would give members a reason to follow forum rules and serve as a block to the alternate account troll/spam accounts.

An additional forum like this would not "restrict" anybody's ability to post. It would not prevent everybody from sharing their opinion. It would simply provide an extra place mostly free of the types of posts that make video game forums so notorious and infamous around the internet.

No need for a super-long post here, though. My response on page 4 of the "recommended reading" thread in the OP is several years old, but pretty much explains my opinion on this issue. I think a lot of the things I said there still hold true today.


You realize you're essentially promoting Mythic Members: The Forum, right?

  • 05.17.2012 12:29 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted?
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Posted by: DeeJ
We want Bungie.net to be a place that welcomes new users.
No you don't.

You want bungie.net to be a place that welcomes new users, makes them feel wanted, encourages them to contribute constructively and encourages them to stick around to welcome the new new users.

The two are markedly different, and at some point you're going to have to face up to the fact that you're going to have to at least partially restrict access in some way to certain of the public forums.

Notably the ability to make new threads (particularly in the flood) should not be a given. We already block brand new accounts from making threads for 24 hours so you accept the principle that the newer the account the less likely the content is to be constructive. You should take that to its extension and prevent accounts newer than, say, four months old from creating threads. No barrier to participation, just a way to keep things a bit more under control.

Locking off forums entirely, particularly when you let people look inside those forums and put them up on a pedastal, is nothing but wankery, ego-stroking of the worst kind.

  • 05.17.2012 12:47 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted? Updated: Adding Forum
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
An additional forum like this would not "restrict" anybody's ability to post. It would not prevent everybody from sharing their opinion.
What absolute nonsense.

It'd restrict people's ability to post. No amount of doublespeak is getting you around that one. If person A has more places to post than person B, then person B is restricted. This is particularly the case when Person B has partial access to the places person A has access to and is told "Well if you want to come in here sunshine you need to be a better person".

If you weren't restricting the actions of some set of users there'd be no point.

It would simply provide an extra place mostly free of the types of posts that make video game forums so notorious and infamous around the internet.If these posts are so undesirable, the method so obvious, effective and "non-restrictive" why not apply it to all forums?

Oh, that's right, because you're talking nonsense.

How about instead of trying to find ways to ring-fence sections of the community that appeal to you, you do your job and remove the elements of the community that make the rest of the place nigh on uninhabitable.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 1:13 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted?

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Its like having the HFCS forums be public where anyone can see their discussion but not post their thoughts. Until they reach the forum ninja title.

Your idea is good, but if I were a new member here, I would be like "aww men, I have to wait 1 year to post on that awesome forum"

What if that persona somehow gets warned or banned and does not have the necessary requirements and she/he already have 1 year in the forums, he/she will get frustrated, like new members when they see mythic guys in the forums.

  • 05.17.2012 12:53 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted? Updated: Adding Forum
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Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
You realize you're essentially promoting Mythic Members: The Forum, right?
Foman was right to link page 4 of that thread, because while his wall of flawed reasoning is there, so are the multitude of arguments against it. If people want to create little locked off ivory towers of their own free from the inanity of the public forums (rather than, say, removing the inanity from the public forums), they have the tools to do so and many (if not all) of us have done so. Don't co-opt the public side of the community to fashion things in your own image.

  • 05.17.2012 12:53 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted?

Key


Posted by: elmicker
Notably the ability to make new threads (particularly in the flood) should not be a given. We already block brand new accounts from making threads for 24 hours so you accept the principle that the newer the account the less likely the content is to be constructive. You should take that to its extension and prevent accounts newer than, say, four months old from creating threads. No barrier to participation, just a way to keep things a bit more under control.
After reading that I've actually become somewhat for bits and pieces of this proposal now.

Especially for the thread creation before 4 months. I think that the likelihood that anyone creates anything but a repeat thread, and, more than likely, a particularly common repeat thread, in their first 4 months of initial account creation. Plus learning forum etiquette before you go off into creating threads is probably good, as well (E.G. jus cuz its da internt dsnt mean u hafta talk liek itz a txt).

  • 05.17.2012 12:53 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted? Updated: Adding Forum

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Posted by: Noshotskill
I'm pretty sure if you want a restricted forum, then you should create a group that is closed to everyone but people who meet a certain set of requirements.
I was thinking this also. This idea is essentially the origin behind private groups, is it not?.

If you can't have intense discussion already (It's few and far between in this forum) then why have a special forum for it? I don't see how people posting "Where's the stats?" has any effect on you having a discussion on a topic.

Posted by: elmicker
Locking off forums entirely, particularly when you let people look inside those forums and put them up on a pedastal, is nothing but wankery, ego-stroking of the worst kind.
Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
You realize you're essentially promoting Mythic Members: The Forum, right?

  • 05.17.2012 12:56 PM PDT
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Don't do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to paramedics. Trust me, I'm a pilot.

I don't like the idea, personally. I feel that everyone should be able to post. I'm sure there are several users here who do not have their gamertag linked to their account, and many more members like myself who have no title, but still contribute in a positive manner to discussions. I think that if you are able to contribute in a positive manner, you should be allowed to post anywhere, regardless of title.

  • 05.17.2012 1:10 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

A restricted forum would be good for people who want to get away from the spamming and have an intelligent discussion. However, having a restriction like a linked gamer tag or being here for a year could unfairly exclude some members. For example, I know a user who is a good contributor but does not have a linked gamer tag. He can't link his tag because Hotmail shut down his address and he was forced to make a new account. Or, for example, a user who has been here for a few months but has had really good ideas on how to help improve this website and community. Why should they be excluded from this forum?

My idea would be to have those restrictions remain in place but include a "nomination" feature. If a member of this forum feels someone deserves to be allowed in they can nominate that user. If several other users agree with this nomination the nominated user can be allowed in. Essentially, you can vote someone into the forum. That way potentially good contributors are allowed in even if the circumstances would normally prohibit their admittance.

  • 05.17.2012 1:13 PM PDT

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Posted by: x Foman123 x
I would be in favor of something like this. It would give members a reason to follow forum rules and serve as a block to the alternate account troll/spam accounts.

An additional forum like this would not "restrict" anybody's ability to post. It would not prevent everybody from sharing their opinion. It would simply provide an extra place mostly free of the types of posts that make video game forums so notorious and infamous around the internet.

Thanks for posing BTW. These two points are the ones I stress the most. Having a forum (we're talking an entirely new forum now - not altering the community forum) would serve the purpose of something to strive for. The community might be more interactive as the users that post there would have a more adequate sense of the forum rules. I think something to strive for would improve the general outline of all the forums here.

Posted by: EL
Let me see if I got this right...

B.net is a neighborhood. The forums, (Optimatch, Community, Flood, Marty Army, etc) are the houses. Some of these houses have locked doors. What OP is proposing is that the door to the Community house become locked. Ok.

What about building a new house on the block?

Posted by: Zealot Tony
Instead of restricting the community forum, it'd be better to simply add another forum with said restrictions only. This forum has its uses to new members, as it provides information in regards to participation in community events, new information regarding Bungie, allows for close interaction with them when compared to other forums, and also allowing for feedback about certain aspects of the site any user - new or old - may have. Both parties - our hosts and users themselves - can't get the most out of this forum if it is given some sort of restricted access to act as a safeguard from the rare blatant troll or spammer.

As I read over this thread more and more, it seems that just adding a new forum is going to be the better solution. Altering the current community forum would just result and blocking off new members on not knowing where to go. The only problem is there needs to be a clear purpose. And I think that a closer interaction with those members would help give newer members something to work for.

Posted by: DeeJ
We want Bungie.net to be a place that welcomes new users. I would challenge you to be more inclusive, more social, and more welcoming. Locking this board down for a user's first year is a full-on sprint in the other direction. Taking the voice of a new member away will only insure that less people decide that this community would be worth joining.

Thanks for the post and consideration. This entire thread could easily turn into a flame fest, but it's not. I have put a lot of thought into this and it's a very touch subject for many. I do agree that the Bungie Community is ever growing and should welcome all users.

Even looking over the "Post Reach" era of bungie.net there are many new faces and users that appear here fairly regularly. Once you guys show off your new project, there will be an entirely new fan base to arrive here. We don't want to shoot ourselves int he foot and tell them no. I am leaning more towards the idea of adding an entirely new forum, to still fulfill this purpose I put in the OP.

I believe that there is lots of intent that would be ignored without putting incentive into users accounts. Like I mentioned there, the restrictions could easily be something like having a linked gamertag and not getting banned for X amount of time.

I like where this discussion is going.

Posted by: burritosenior
This would encourage people to be good members over a long period of time.
This is the bottom line I'm addressing and I can't stress it enough.

  • 05.17.2012 1:13 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted?
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Posted by: DeeJ
Thanks for this chatter. I know you put a lot of thought into this.

I understand your thinking here. I can relate to the urge to insulate the community from casual users who might ruin the mood for sport. Believe me, I do. And, I have. The Community Forum, however, is not the place to do that.

We want Bungie.net to be a place that welcomes new users. I would challenge you to be more inclusive, more social, and more welcoming. Locking this board down for a user's first year is a full-on sprint in the other direction. Taking the voice of a new member away will only insure that less people decide that this community would be worth joining.

There is a place where you can enjoy an intense discussion that includes only the people who really care about polite discourse that benefits the community. There is a place where you have full control over the ambiance that swirls around your conversation. Your Groups are where this happens.

You know this. I know that you know this. And, some of you might even know that I know you know this. It's just good to have a reminder that a Community Forum that is wide open is all part of our plan. We want a place that is an honest reflection of all the people that like to visit Bungie.net - even if some of them like to peel out in the driveway and light off firecrackers on the dance floor.


You should make a forum called "The Aristocrats," since aristocrats can mean the best of their [Bungie Members] kind. These requirements stated would allow you to post there. We could even have one for General Discussion called "The Salon," a.k.a. an 18th Century gathering room; very classy. We must speak with class, too. You must admit, it is a good idea.

  • 05.17.2012 1:20 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted? Updated: Adding Forum

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You imply a level of control over Halo: Reach matchmaking that we no longer have. Or, in your vernacular, it isn't our shiznit anymore.


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Posted by: DeeJ
Taking the voice of a new member away will only insure that less people decide that this community would be worth joining.
I completely agree with this. If this second forum was created what would the original Community Forum become? The majority of the members that contribute to the discussions here are members that have accounts older than a year or two, if the account age requirements were too short the original Community Forum would die out. On the other side of the coin if you make the account age requirement too long you have a see-only forum that is restricted to only a small amount of members. If the second forum doesn't have enough members and isn't very active then the incentive to get into the second forum would be gone. If I was completely new to Bungie.net and the only active forum I could post in was The Flood I would have a second thought about visiting the site again.

Posted by: burritosenior
But you get a couple Mythic Members who are... well, just asshats that are good at not getting banned as they toe the line? Well... maybe they don't get in.
How would moderators distinguish between asshat members and playful sarcasm that is everywhere in the Community Forum?

The creation of this second forum would be a very interesting experiment, I can't say if I'm for or against this idea.

  • 05.17.2012 2:12 PM PDT
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The 1 year requirement is harsh. 3 days is fine.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 2:29 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 2:27 PM PDT

Кланяються мені!

I like the general idea of this. Better quality posts in this forum would be very nice change from some of the garbage threads created here on a daily basis.

Posted by: Sprool
The 1 year requirement is harsh. 3 days is fine.


I wouldn't say harsh. Newbies are the most likely to post repeat topics that have been discussed an unfathomably high amount of times. After a year or so members generally start to familiarize the flow of discussion and start creating unique discussions.

The ultimate goal is that newer members watch the discussion that happens in the forum over the period of their qualification and create their own unique additions when that time comes.

  • 05.17.2012 3:39 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted?

Posted by: AngryBrute1
Oh yeah, since somebody does not believe what YOU believe; that makes us vapid...
I cannot grasp that what you call "Something happened to nothing, and that nothing became something, and it was smaller than than a period."

Posted by: Luke35120
Why restrict users of the site? The whole point is simplicity and user access. Making something that is a publicly available yet at the same time restricted will annoy the users.

  • 05.17.2012 3:49 PM PDT

Roll the dice, try again.


Posted by: Wikked Navajoe
Posted by: Luke35120
Why restrict users of the site? The whole point is simplicity and user access. Making something that is a publicly available yet at the same time restricted will annoy the users.
To encourage positive behavior.

  • 05.17.2012 3:51 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted? Updated: Adding Forum


Posted by: Kr1egerdude
How would moderators distinguish between asshat members and playful sarcasm that is everywhere in the Community Forum?
Because every community forum regular knows who is who. You haven't been here that long at all mate, but after interacting with people for years, you get to know the attitudes of each other regular.

  • 05.17.2012 3:53 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum...was restricted? Updated: New Forum

I like the idea as a whole, but I don't see a distinguishable difference (besides enabled restrictions) between the proposed forum and the forum we currently reside in. Sure, there are occasional (or frequent, if you will) members that post spam-like comments and or opinions based on the regarded posts of others, but I don't see why that gets to you, the OP, like it does.

Please note when I say "members", I'm not intentionally referencing the actual member (title) base of users. I simply mean any user in general. In other words, I believe the Community Forum is already "well-suited" enough to handle the messages within. Some are bad, but some are also worthwhile and notable.

  • 05.17.2012 4:00 PM PDT

Perpetual Ninja in training.

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I was considering this very idea myself recently, and I'd love to share my opinion, but I can't seem to concentrate for more then ten seconds right now, so I'm gonna just post this now, and come back later and edit it when my head isn't a mess.



Edit: Right, I'll give my two cents, regardless of how useless they will be.

DeeJ had a valid point about B.net being a place that welcomes new members, and that we have to deal with the unfortunate moments when someone takes pleasure in trolling/spamming the forums.

I had an idea that we could limit the number of post a person makes per day when they first make an account. A new member really should be spending the first few days/weeks or months even lurking for the most part. B.net is a social experiment in the eyes of a Psychologist, and it's almost evolved into a Culture in many ways. New members will take time to learn the ropes around here.

The problem with adding a new forum is that:

It would not be attractive to users like me to go to, so new members will not have the guidance from vets

and

It would beg for large amounts of trolls, while also removing new members from discussions.

I agree that something could be done here, it's just a matter of talking the subject over until we conceive a usable method to implement in the appropriate manner.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 5:46 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 4:02 PM PDT

// Chapter
// My PC


2/15/12: Francisco Porras, I'll miss you. Rest in Peace.

Second Community forum that is restricted. Problem solved.
Posted by: DeeJ


EDIT:
I didn't read the update. And now I'm off.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 4:31 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 4:16 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum.....was restricted?

Roll the dice, try again.

Posted by: GPK Ethan
Second Community forum that is restricted. Problem solved.
Posted by: DeeJ

I don't want to be THAT guy, but read the first statement that the OP updated his post with. We've been talking about adding a different forum instead of using the community forum for the past page or so..

  • 05.17.2012 4:22 PM PDT
Subject: What if the community forum...was restricted? Updated: New Forum
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Posted by: GPK Ethan
Second Community forum that is restricted. Problem solved
Why would anyone choose to broadcast their views to a smaller audience? It's illogical. The only reason to want to lock people out is to make one's self feel special. If there are people being disruptive, then that's what we've got moderators for (supposedly). If you're posting something in public, why would you ever post it to a reduced group than is available?

  • 05.17.2012 4:31 PM PDT

// Chapter
// My PC


2/15/12: Francisco Porras, I'll miss you. Rest in Peace.

Why do I post in private groups with 50 or so members? Having a restricted forum would be like private groups, everyone there would actually want to be there. There would be no foul play, no trolls.

I'm not saying I would post there. But it would be there for the people that wanted it.
Posted by: elmicker
Why would anyone choose to broadcast their views to a smaller audience? It's illogical. The only reason to want to lock people out is to make one's self feel special. If there are people being disruptive, then that's what we've got moderators for (supposedly). If you're posting something in public, why would you ever post it to a reduced group than is available?


[Edited on 05.17.2012 4:49 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 4:41 PM PDT
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The End

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Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: GPK Ethan
Second Community forum that is restricted. Problem solved
Why would anyone choose to broadcast their views to a smaller audience? It's illogical. The only reason to want to lock people out is to make one's self feel special. If there are people being disruptive, then that's what we've got moderators for (supposedly). If you're posting something in public, why would you ever post it to a reduced group than is available?
Because the demographic is also a key consideration. In the Reach forum only well trodden topics of bloom and armor lock tended to gain traction post-launch. Other threads were hampered by the great sea of crap produced by less experienced members, which effectively drowned out anything that was not a hot contentious issue.

This links back to the idea that the demographic must be controlled, to some extent. The inexperienced users must not dictate the quality of the dicussion environment, due to their comparatively large majority. Seniority and experience needs to be more heavily weighted.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 5:02 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 4:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: GPK Ethan
Why do I post in private groups with 50 or so members? Having a restricted forum would be like private groups, everyone there would actually want to be there. There would be no foul play, no trolls.
If it'd be just like a private group, why not just use a private group? Why put it on a pedastal as a public forum? It's clear the people speaking in favour of such a restricted forum here are only after a place to speak with like-minded people they get on with, not a place to actually try and improve the forums. How could it? New users, the ones who supposedly cause the problems they're putting forward, wouldn't even be able to use it, so why would they give two monkey's brass ones about how the people who do use it conduct themselves?

Posted by: Tom T
Because the demographic is also a key consideration. In the Reach forum only well trodden topics of bloom and armor lock tended to gain traction post-launch. Other threads were hampered by the great sea of crap produced by less experienced members, which effectively drowned out anything that was not a hot contentious issue.
That's an argument in favour of making threads more difficult to make, and actually moderating the discussion that goes on within them, not an argument in favour of outright banning new users.

Nothing on the public side of the forums should lock out members, ever. There should certainly be measures in place to shepherd new users into discussing what they want (NB: not what you want) in a constructive manner, but outright banning them for months for no reason other than they're new will just drive them away, and leave only fawning, fanatical (dare i say inbred?) individuals staying the course. It'd be like this place now, but a thousand times worse because it'd be put on a pedastal as The Way To Behave and The Place To Strive For, when in reality, it'd be just another private group, with all the same flaws, with some bells on.


In fact, the best comparison that springs to mind is The Seventh Column Council With Bells On. And I think we all know how that turned out. And if you don't you can probably take a guess.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 5:48 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 5:34 PM PDT