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Subject: Let me tell you guys why Halsey was clearly evil.

As I'm reading through Glasslands again, I've realized it's so simple. Not only did Halsey create the SPARTAN-II Program and operate it singlehandedly, but she obviously was responsible for the Covenant discovering humanity, thus giving her an incredibly convenient excuse for the program, other than that minor Insurrection-thingy that was threatening to tear humanity apart. I wouldn't be surprised if she was responsible for the Flood too. And the Halo Array. And Reach's canon errors.

She should have strived to be a better moral figure like Paragonsky or Ackerson. All they did was kidnap orphans and send them on suicide missions.

  • 05.31.2012 10:03 PM PDT

Believe. Bungie.

Yeah you let that inner troll out. Now go back under your bridge. We all know that sending orphans on suicide missions is clearly a symbol of good morality.

  • 05.31.2012 10:07 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

I fail to realize how Halsey has anything to do with the Covenant discovering humans...

  • 05.31.2012 10:13 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
I fail to realize how Halsey has anything to do with the Covenant discovering humans...


It's all part of her plan to... do... something bad...

  • 05.31.2012 10:15 PM PDT


Posted by: ProHOTSHOT
Yeah you let that inner troll out. Now go back under your bridge. We all know that sending orphans on suicide missions is clearly a symbol of good morality.


Is it considered trolling if it's obviously sarcastic?

  • 05.31.2012 10:16 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Ha I'm with you Ted. Its just testament to the fragmenting storyline that is Halo. Too many cooks and a complete loss of focus equals....... bad Halo soup.

  • 05.31.2012 11:57 PM PDT

Rain, and Jazz.
Halo: Tactical

I'm either a fool or an inteligent man, depending on how sleepy or angry I am.

I originaly made an account on 07.27.2007 but I wanted to link my GT and made this account. Don't forget your passwords!


Posted by: Sigma617
Traviss's garbage excuse for a book might as well have been named: "Let's crucify Halsey!"


Redmind me again what book Traviss wrote? I don't recall but it seems as though it was a newer one.

  • 06.01.2012 2:49 AM PDT

Straight from the wandering mind of Watson 203


Posted by: Arbiter 739

Posted by: Sigma617
Traviss's garbage excuse for a book might as well have been named: "Let's crucify Halsey!"


Redmind me again what book Traviss wrote? I don't recall but it seems as though it was a newer one.

She wrote Halo: Glasslands and is currently writing Halo: The Thursday War. The trilogy is set after Halo 3 but before Halo 4 I believe, but I haven't read them so someone may have to correct me.

  • 06.01.2012 3:09 AM PDT

Rain, and Jazz.
Halo: Tactical

I'm either a fool or an inteligent man, depending on how sleepy or angry I am.

I originaly made an account on 07.27.2007 but I wanted to link my GT and made this account. Don't forget your passwords!


Posted by: Watson 203

Posted by: Arbiter 739

Posted by: Sigma617
Traviss's garbage excuse for a book might as well have been named: "Let's crucify Halsey!"


Redmind me again what book Traviss wrote? I don't recall but it seems as though it was a newer one.

She wrote Halo: Glasslands and is currently writing Halo: The Thursday War. The trilogy is set after Halo 3 but before Halo 4 I believe, but I haven't read them so someone may have to correct me.


Thank you, though I've figured it out in the meantime (I ended up finding my collection of the books in the series too). I hope she does a better job on "The Thursday War" than she did on Grasslands.

  • 06.01.2012 3:17 AM PDT

心の中に弱い風が吹いています。

The SPARTAN program wasn't even meant for the Covies. It was started as a result of the Insurrection from the Outer Colonies. And throughout Glasslands the reader is given two completely differentiating perspectives of Halsey.

For some she's a mad scientist who tried to appeal to her own humanity after proving to those around her that she didn't have any. On the other hand Halsey's a caring mother who's been there for her "children", the Spartans, all her life and still cares about them.

Her actions were barbarous by anyone's standards. But she still has regrets about the choices she's made. The only thing she feels she can do now is keep pushing forward so that all of it is not in vain.

And really her and Parangosky aren't that very different. Both have justified the actions they've taken by reasoning that they had to do it for the sake of saving lives. And they're both prepared to shoulder the burden of their decisions so others don't have to.

  • 06.01.2012 4:12 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: flamedude
Ha I'm with you Ted. Its just testament to the fragmenting storyline that is Halo. Too many cooks and a complete loss of focus equals....... bad Halo soup.

I think common sense and retrospect are in chronic short supply over at 343i as well.

  • 06.01.2012 4:44 AM PDT

Did you all know Halsey also started every way since the dawn of man in order to create the S-II?


No. -blam!- it. Back to a point.

Glasslands tore Halo fans into two different camps, a camp of people who are against Halsey because of something stupid as morals. Come on people it was a bloody war, and before you try to act start. I know the S-II wasn't created for the covvie war.

And those who hate how Travis took Halo and did a 180 with it. Like with the S-II, "yea we don't wanna get involved with this, so we're gonna act like a bunch of four year olds who's mommy and daddy are fight."

[Edited on 06.01.2012 8:51 AM PDT]

  • 06.01.2012 8:09 AM PDT


Posted by: Chester Duncan
Did you all know Halsey also started every way since the dawn of man in order to create the S-II?


No. -blam!- it. Back to a point.

Glasslands tore Halo fans into two different camps, a camp of people who are against Halsey because of something stupid as morals. Come on people it was a bloody war, and before you try to act start. I know the S-II was created for the covvie war.

And those who hate how Travis took Halo and did a 180 with it. Like with the S-II, "yea we don't wanna get involved with this, so we're gonna act like a bunch of four year olds who's mommy and daddy are fight."


Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.

  • 06.01.2012 8:43 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.

And millions dead and planets burning and getting nuked is clearly a preferable option./sarcasm

  • 06.01.2012 8:50 AM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Chester Duncan
Did you all know Halsey also started every way since the dawn of man in order to create the S-II?


No. -blam!- it. Back to a point.

Glasslands tore Halo fans into two different camps, a camp of people who are against Halsey because of something stupid as morals. Come on people it was a bloody war, and before you try to act start. I know the S-II was created for the covvie war.

And those who hate how Travis took Halo and did a 180 with it. Like with the S-II, "yea we don't wanna get involved with this, so we're gonna act like a bunch of four year olds who's mommy and daddy are fight."


Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.
Haha. Yes it was a typo. I know the S-II weren't created for the covvie war. Also since when has war had morals in it?

  • 06.01.2012 8:50 AM PDT


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.

And millions dead and planets burning and getting nuked is clearly a preferable option./sarcasm
Hey. It is. I mean why steal childern at the age of 5/6 and turn them into the best of the best, just to save afew million lives?

  • 06.01.2012 8:53 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.
How is mass murder at the hands of Humans any less worse than mass murder at the hands of aliens?

It's not moral, no, but saying it is unjustified is kind of silly, especially if you are prepared to accept that it would have been had it been done to stop the Covenant instead.

  • 06.01.2012 9:04 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.
How is mass murder at the hands of Humans any less worse than mass murder at the hands of aliens?

It's not moral, no, but saying it is unjustified is kind of silly, especially if you are prepared to accept that it would have been had it been done to stop the Covenant instead.
Like I said, Glasslands tore the Halo camp into two. I remember when we could all get along and just talk about something, but now morals have to be brought into everything.

  • 06.01.2012 9:07 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.
How is mass murder at the hands of Humans any less worse than mass murder at the hands of aliens?

It's not moral, no, but saying it is unjustified is kind of silly, especially if you are prepared to accept that it would have been had it been done to stop the Covenant instead.
Like I said, Glasslands tore the Halo camp into two. I remember when we could all get along and just talk about something, but now morals have to be brought into everything.
I'm pretty sure the morals were there all the tme...

  • 06.01.2012 9:17 AM PDT


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.
How is mass murder at the hands of Humans any less worse than mass murder at the hands of aliens?

It's not moral, no, but saying it is unjustified is kind of silly, especially if you are prepared to accept that it would have been had it been done to stop the Covenant instead.
Like I said, Glasslands tore the Halo camp into two. I remember when we could all get along and just talk about something, but now morals have to be brought into everything.
I'm pretty sure the morals were there all the tme...
To a point, yes. But not at the point we've reached with Glasslands, like how Halsey should be eating alive by grunts and saved at the last seasond just to go through it all over again a month later.

  • 06.01.2012 9:19 AM PDT
  • gamertag: Poy357
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Oh wow, morals again.

  • 06.01.2012 9:33 AM PDT


Posted by: Poy Poy
Oh wow, morals again.
Halo isn't about a super badass going around cracking the skulls of aliens anymore, its all about morals.

  • 06.01.2012 9:35 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

She created the soldiers that saved humanity.

/thread

  • 06.01.2012 9:47 AM PDT

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.

And millions dead and planets burning and getting nuked is clearly a preferable option./sarcasm


And this is the debate. In a twisted way, you're just supporting that Traviss knew what she was talking about. The very fact you have a side, and I have another completely different perspective is the exact thing that drives the moral conflict in Glasslands. These two sides: "butchering children is wrong" and "millions dying by terrorist nukes is worse" are the sides that are being discussed in the Kilo 5 Trilogy. The real life debate just supports this.

What you have to realize about Traviss is that she does not write for anyone, she just takes a conflict and portrays how characters would react in those scenarios, even at the risk of completely disagreeing with what real people think and through that risk becoming hated; journalists don't care if you disagree with facts, they don't care if you hate them for reporting, they don't care if you shoot the messenger, they only care about the story. You may staunchly disagree that Halsey is a bastard, but characters in the universe, as well as in real life, do not. They see her as a reincarnation of Hitler even, which in a sense she is. Bioengineering children to create a superior being.

Now is that correct? Is Halsey Hitler 2.0? Personal perspective isn't correct. You say that she helped stave off civil war. Others say that her methods, and even motivations, were morally wrong. It doesn't matter who is right, only what happens as a result of the debate.

Traviss does not write her perspectives into the story--you know she takes a journalist's view of neutrality regarding writing for a premade universe--she writes the perspectives of her characters; the critical world lauds her for being able to do this.

And she's right isn't she? How can she not be when the debate in real life is the same as the one in the story. The only difference is that people here in this forum seem to think that because the debate is prominently showing the side no one considered until now (because until now, no one was in any position to truly look at it and question it as everyone who knew of it was in on it), that automatically means that the book itself is terrible. Forget the book, forget the author, put down your arrogance for a change and actually think of all of the possible outcomes, all of the possible perspectives rather than being arrogantly narrow minded that your perspective is the only right one. Focus on the debate as a character conflict and a part of the story. The author is irrelevant. What matters is the perspective views of the characters.


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.
How is mass murder at the hands of Humans any less worse than mass murder at the hands of aliens?

It's not moral, no, but saying it is unjustified is kind of silly, especially if you are prepared to accept that it would have been had it been done to stop the Covenant instead.


And that's your perspective. Others look at it differently. Others think of the motive reason behind why she did what she did and say her motivation itself is wrong and as a result she's a dangerous person. You cannot argue that a major part of why she did what she did was because she was a scientist. Scientist first, patriot second. As a scientist, she does her research and experiments to see if they would work. So in effect, she butchered children just to see if they could become superior.

Another person did that. His name was Himmler. Like how he would freeze one twin and/or burn the other to see if they were connected.

Is it justifiable? Statistically yes. A few for the many. Funnily enough this debate has also been done before in Traviss' books. If you take the Wess'har philosophy that motive doesn't matter, only outcomes, than yes, it is perfectly justifiable.

If you take the human perspective that motivation IS important, than no, not completely. It is understandable as far as the lives saved, but the lives lost, and the lives destroyed in the process won't see it that way.

I'm sorry, but that is the human race. And as I said, the very fact this discussion is being presented here in this forum is just proving with each post that Traviss was right. No one can agree on anything, it is all perspective. What you have to do is ignore your own biases and look at the story completely objectively. Then you can say who is right and who is wrong. And as far as you're concerned, someone will be right, others will be wrong. You may see the former as a genius and the latter as a blithering idiot. But they don't see themselves that way. They and their supporters see the reverse. It is all perspective.

  • 06.01.2012 9:47 AM PDT

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