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Subject: Let me tell you guys why Halsey was clearly evil.

Only problem. Halsey didn't butcher children. When you say that, it makes me think of purposeful failed augmentations/deaths.

But you see, Traviss completely changed characters. Like say... The Spartans just bowing down to an ODST going "Captains orders that you can't touch her."

Or Mendez suddenly hating Halsey 100% to the point of considering letting her STARVE TO DEATH. While he hates Halsey for the S2's, he trained and sent spartans to their death before they even hit teens. And he doesn't admit that he's really just as 'bad'.

Or How Parangosky is morally better, when she took orphans and turned them into 'suicide soldiers'. Hell, she wanted to expand the numbers I think, and get MORE KIDS in there. Kurt stopped her though. Oh, and Parangosky is morally better because she thinks the Spartans can reunite with their surviving families... without a problem.



There's a reason Chief bit his tongue and held his true ID to Parisa in the palace hotel short. Spartans being known who they really are to their childhood family/friends would rip humanity apart.


Oh, and Traviss did say she didn't even keep the characters. I believe her wording was "I rebuilt the characters from the ground up." So basically, all these characters that have been heavily established in the lore? Traviss just tossed out their built up personality and put in what she wanted. The anti-Halsey theme was so heavy, as others say, the book was "Let's kill Halsey" and not a halo book.

[Edited on 06.01.2012 10:02 AM PDT]

  • 06.01.2012 10:00 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Did Halsey do things that could be called evil and inhumane? Yes, though how evil and inhumane is a point of debate. Is Halsey Dr.Mengele in the 26th century? Hell no! Mengele was a fascist, racist monster. Halsey genuinely had Humanity's best interests at heart. She never did anything that could be compared to the systematic annihilation of an entire religion.

  • 06.01.2012 12:33 PM PDT

Lets Boogie

Not only did Halsey experiment on human beings, which caused many to die, she also created flash clones which of course died as well. So her actions killed many innocent kids.

Personally i don't think the Spartans 2 were needed to fight of the rebels. Call me an optimistic man, but i don't think kidnapping innocent children, brainwashing them, taking away there humanity, experimenting on them, killing them, lying to their parents, creating flash clones of them that will die, is the right way to go in fighting rebels bent on destruction.

If i heard of a government here on earth who decide to kidnap children to create super soldiers to fight some big rebel/terrorist problem....then i would be against it as well, even if their actions of saving kids could potentially save future lives.

  • 06.01.2012 1:13 PM PDT

ULTIMATE FAILURE.

Jesus balls this thread is stupid. All I've seen bar a couple of decent posts is "hurr durr Halsey is space jesus" and "hurr durr Halsey is space -blam!- scientist."

Shades of grey and point of perspective. To the Spartans and to many of the people who know about the project, what Halsey did was the right thing and done in the best interests of humanity. To others, it was despicable, an act borne out of cold scientific curiosity that had been divorced from empathy and ethics. Again, point of view, the validity of her actions is up for debate. I thought that was half decently done.

As for the Mendez situation, he and Halsey talk/argue repeatedly about it, with Halsey constantly confronting him with the point that he trained them and sent them to die on foreign fields, but he won't have any of it, or blows it off with a "but it wasn't the right thing abloo abloo." Going to be honest, I thought he was covertly bashed a lot as well.

As for the rest... the spartan's reaction to finding out the truth about the recruitment and the situation around her young life is perfectly understandable. What happened to her mum and dad seems a likely reaction to finding out that their young daughter was kidnapped and turned into goddamn super soldier and replaced with a cancerous clone.

I literally can't understand how the book was hard to understand, and where the Halsey-bashing accusations are coming from, when almost all of the characters bar the ODSTs and a couple of others were really, really not good people.

  • 06.01.2012 1:35 PM PDT


Posted by: haloplayer2kill
Not only did Halsey experiment on human beings, which caused many to die, she also created flash clones which of course died as well. So her actions killed many innocent kids.

Personally i don't think the Spartans 2 were needed to fight of the rebels. Call me an optimistic man, but i don't think kidnapping innocent children, brainwashing them, taking away there humanity, experimenting on them, killing them, lying to their parents, creating flash clones of them that will die, is the right way to go in fighting rebels bent on destruction.

If i heard of a government here on earth who decide to kidnap children to create super soldiers to fight some big rebel/terrorist problem....then i would be against it as well, even if their actions of saving kids could potentially save future lives.


A: she didn't experiment on kids. That implies she went in with the purpose of "What will happen." Which is utterly false. She experiment on animals to make the augmentations have the BEST chance of success. The flash clones were to provide closure for the families. Morally? It was the right choice as the Spartans could NEVER return to their families.
B: Yeah, you try a normal war, which would result in the destruction of the bulk of humanity. The rebels were constantly pulling out and using nukes and other WMD.
C: So you'd be against a drastic measure to stop a MASSIVE problem? These rebels were mass murdering CIVILIANS. They were openly going after WMD.

All the research pointed that the rebels, unless massively drastic measures were used, would start weaponizing slipspace drives, and the death count would put humanity into the stone age. Aka, the prediction was if the Spartans weren't made, human death numbers would almost equal the number killed by the Covenant.

  • 06.01.2012 2:45 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: haloplayer2kill
Not only did Halsey experiment on human beings, which caused many to die, she also created flash clones which of course died as well. So her actions killed many innocent kids.


Wrong. Halsey experimented on chimps before giving the augmentations to the children and made sure to make it as safe as possible. It was not perfect, but her research paved the way for the 100% safe augmentations for the S-IIIs and beyond.

Also, the flash clones are a far better alternative than nothing. If your child dies, you KNOW they died. It's painful yes, but compare that to never knowing what happened to your child and letting your imagination run wild. Being -blam!-ly abused by some pervert, dead in a ditch on a backwater colony, so many situations and you just don't know.

Personally i don't think the Spartans 2 were needed to fight of the rebels. Call me an optimistic man, but i don't think kidnapping innocent children, brainwashing them, taking away there humanity, experimenting on them, killing them, lying to their parents, creating flash clones of them that will die, is the right way to go in fighting rebels bent on destruction.

Then how do you propose fighting rebels armed with nukes and happy to use them, as they did on Mamore, bombing public areas killing hundreds to get a few UNSC or CMA personnel and/or making and hijacking ships to build their own arsenal.

Conventional Earth-based counter-terror tactics don't work on a galactic scale. The Spartans were used to go after the terrorists only. Had the Covenant not showed up, who knows how far they would've gone.

If i heard of a government here on earth who decide to kidnap children to create super soldiers to fight some big rebel/terrorist problem....then i would be against it as well, even if their actions of saving kids could potentially save future lives.

So you would damn the many, good idea.

  • 06.01.2012 3:02 PM PDT

Not to mention, the Spartans were made for one specific reason in the counter-rebel movements.

They were made so the UNSC had a force that could get into the rebel bases, take out/capture the leaders, and get out without losses/mass bloodshed.



Just imagine, a group of two rebel controlled freighters on approach to Reach. They give all the proper ID etc so they are cleared to land.

One lands in a major city (Or near a groundside heavy UNSC presence) the other moves to dock with the major shipyards in orbit, where the bulk of the fleet is.

Both then activate their slipspace drive (like we saw in Reach). Bam, now you have a large land area utterly ruined if not vaporized, and a massive chunk of your shipyards and fleet. The blast wiping out more as it kills power. Then the debris rains on the planet harming more.

That's the style of stuff the rebels were moving toward.

Weaponizing slipspace capable ships into WMD. We've seen what a frigate slipspace drive can do in Halo Reach when used as a weapon.

[Edited on 06.01.2012 4:58 PM PDT]

  • 06.01.2012 4:42 PM PDT

TIE ME TO A TREE!!!!!

didn't they first get contact on a transport ship, and the grunt fired on the human first?

  • 06.01.2012 6:44 PM PDT


Posted by: Ov3RK1LL I666I
didn't they first get contact on a transport ship, and the grunt fired on the human first?
Yes. Yayap's cousin I believe.

  • 06.02.2012 7:19 AM PDT

What she did was morally wrong obviously but she took 75 children and turned them in to the best they could be to prevent the total breakdown of humanity into civil war. If she hadn't humanity would have lost the human covenant war. Even the things she does during the events of First strike and GoO show how much she has helped in the war. The end of Glasslands is just Rubbish Why should she be imprisoned for life for basically doing what she had to do. In my opinion Travis just took the characters and changed them to much and the admiral just seems like a giant Blam!

  • 06.02.2012 10:44 AM PDT


Posted by: Mr Owen L
What she did was morally wrong obviously but she took 75 children and turned them in to the best they could be to prevent the total breakdown of humanity into civil war. If she hadn't humanity would have lost the human covenant war. Even the things she does during the events of First strike and GoO show how much she has helped in the war. The end of Glasslands is just Rubbish Why should she be imprisoned for life for basically doing what she had to do. In my opinion Travis just took the characters and changed them to much and the admiral just seems like a giant Blam!
Agreed. Thats like saying those who created the A-bomb should be locked up because of it. They knew what they were doing.

  • 06.02.2012 11:14 AM PDT


Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: Mr Owen L
What she did was morally wrong obviously but she took 75 children and turned them in to the best they could be to prevent the total breakdown of humanity into civil war. If she hadn't humanity would have lost the human covenant war. Even the things she does during the events of First strike and GoO show how much she has helped in the war. The end of Glasslands is just Rubbish Why should she be imprisoned for life for basically doing what she had to do. In my opinion Travis just took the characters and changed them to much and the admiral just seems like a giant Blam!
Agreed. Thats like saying those who created the A-bomb should be locked up because of it. They knew what they were doing.


They created something horrible, to preserve the rest of the race.

Had their intentions been the other way... If they made the nuclear bomb or the spartans(for Halsey) for their own personal power, or to wipe out anybody who opposed them. Yes. But they made the Spartans to save humanity from itself, and the nuke was made to be the ultimate deterrent.

  • 06.02.2012 11:22 AM PDT


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.

And millions dead and planets burning and getting nuked is clearly a preferable option./sarcasm


Do you think the UNSC were the good guys before the human-Covenant war? Not likely. They nuked the colony of Far Isle in 2492 because of demonstrations there.

Nuked innocent civilians, not even as collateral damage in a war, just as crowd control. This caused the major insurrection we see glimpses of before the Covenant attack. The UNSC were militaristic brutes who refused to grant independence to any planet, and the Spartan project would have just been another way for them to oppress the people outside the inner colonies.

[Edited on 06.02.2012 1:58 PM PDT]

  • 06.02.2012 1:57 PM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Not sure if typo or not, but the Spartans weren't created for the Covie war. They were kidnapped children built to kill rebels.

That's totally justifiable and not morally wrong.

And millions dead and planets burning and getting nuked is clearly a preferable option./sarcasm


Do you think the UNSC were the good guys before the human-Covenant war? Not likely. They nuked the colony of Far Isle in 2492 because of demonstrations there.

Nuked innocent civilians, not even as collateral damage in a war, just as crowd control. This caused the major insurrection we see glimpses of before the Covenant attack. The UNSC were militaristic brutes who refused to grant independence to any planet, and the Spartan project would have just been another way for them to oppress the people outside the inner colonies.


You honsetly make me laugh.

Far Isle is an unknown, but I doubt the bulk of people there were "Just innocent civilians peacefully protesting." edit2: Far Isle was a human colony world. In 2492, a massive insurrectionist uprising occurred on the planet. Does that sound like just "demonstrations? Not really.

The Rebels escalated the conflict by murdering the crew of a UNSC ship and destroying the AI, then using that ship to kill the bulk of the crews of three destroyers, and seriously damage all there. All over... an accident in a cargo inspection.

The UNSC might've been strict, but the rebels very, very quickly went to open warfare, mass murders, and WMD. How can you defend the guys who literally spaced a UNSC typical inspection crew? The guys who destroyed a passenger liner full of civilians and no UNSC servicemen (at least on duty). The guys who nuked a colony, killing 2 million, wounded 8 million+, with millions more and generations suffering from radiation poisoning?

Stop trying to bloody make the rebels look like the good guys. They weren't. And until they give us more information on Far Isle, it's not a very strong point to base "UNSC ISH EVIL!" argument from. The only details is the UNSC nuked the colony due to rebels really. No mention of "Nuking innocent civilians because of a few demonstrations."

Edit: While not all the rebels were bad, the ones that were good simply disapeared and got left alone, which is all they wanted. The rest? Full blown terrorist rings caring nothing more then killing. Even if they had been granted independence, they still would've fought. They would've fought each other even maybe.

[Edited on 06.02.2012 2:24 PM PDT]

  • 06.02.2012 2:09 PM PDT

I'm not defending the insurrectionists (but I don't think they were all unified under one group as you do, I imagine there were many different factions and some were more extreme than others) but to say the UNSC had the purest of intentions when creating the SIIs is equally folly.

  • 06.02.2012 2:30 PM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog
I'm not defending the insurrectionists (but I don't think they were all unified under one group as you do, I imagine there were many different factions and some were more extreme than others) but to say the UNSC had the purest of intentions when creating the SIIs is equally folly.



I never said they were all one group. I merely said those we hear about are all the extreme ones.

Likewise, never said the "purest of intentions" were meant with the spartans. However I don't believe they were made solely because UNSC command couldn't stand colonies wanting independence. I believe they were made moreso so the biggest threats to the entire stability could be removed.

  • 06.02.2012 2:46 PM PDT

Also, and ironically this is off-topic in my own thread, but did anyone else want Mendez to kick that ODST's ass?

  • 06.02.2012 8:05 PM PDT


Posted by: TedToaster22
Also, and ironically this is off-topic in my own thread, but did anyone else want Mendez to kick that ODST's ass?


Which odst?

I admit I've not read 100% of glasslands, but I read enough to get the feeling new Mendez would love to see Halsey beat up and tossed in a cell.

  • 06.02.2012 9:52 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: TedToaster22
Also, and ironically this is off-topic in my own thread, but did anyone else want Mendez to kick that ODST's ass?


Which odst?

I admit I've not read 100% of glasslands, but I read enough to get the feeling new Mendez would love to see Halsey beat up and tossed in a cell.


Vaz

[Edited on 06.02.2012 10:16 PM PDT]

  • 06.02.2012 10:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
She created the soldiers that saved humanity.

/thread

  • 06.03.2012 12:55 AM PDT

Space. The Final Frontier. These are the voyages of Murphy's Laws on the StarShip Enterprise

Halsey did do some morally wrong things. However, she didn't do as much damage as she could have done. A good analogy is cutting off a limb to save yourself from a fatal disease currently in that limb.

She just chose a method that was extreme, but there could have been other ways of getting recruits for the same purpose as the Spartans. Such as expaning the ODST's.

I'm not denying that she made morally wrong decisions, but ONI and some of High Command also authorised the Spartan program. So they're not all in the right here. And ONI did do worse, such as making disposable Spartans and allowing Reach to become bait for the Covenant

  • 06.03.2012 3:34 AM PDT

The Razor.

For the honour of the Mirratord.

Posted by: Chester Duncan
I remember when we could all get along and just talk about something


I've been a part of this website for six years and I don't remember such a time.

  • 06.03.2012 4:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: EachToxic wolf
I'm not denying that she made morally wrong decisions, but ONI and some of High Command also authorised the Spartan program. So they're not all in the right here. And ONI did do worse, such as making disposable Spartans and allowing Reach to become bait for the Covenant
Yeah, ONI's way worse.

Killing civilians during a Flood crisis and placing more emphasis on their own agent's survival (unless The Mona Lisa is not canon or ONI understood the threat of a Gravemind assimilating memories and more).

Their attempts to harness parasites (subjecting Elite prisoners to the Flood) reminds me of the company in the Alien films. Way wrong.

Finally, if Glasslands is anything canon, they're screwing with the Arbiter. That is 1) a major insult to Chief's friendship with him and 2) deserving of death (jk).

[Edited on 06.03.2012 12:05 PM PDT]

  • 06.03.2012 12:03 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Finally, if Glasslands is anything canon, they're screwing with the Arbiter.

Seems like an excuse for fighting elites in H4.

  • 06.03.2012 12:13 PM PDT


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Finally, if Glasslands is anything canon, they're screwing with the Arbiter.

Seems like an excuse for fighting elites in H4.
Thats the problem in itself. For those who don't read the books, all their gonna think is WTF??!! Because at the end of Halo 3 the elites and humans are cool but in Halo 4 both of them are back trying to murder each other.

  • 06.03.2012 2:01 PM PDT

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