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  • Subject: Does anyone dislike where the story of the Halo series is going?
Subject: Does anyone dislike where the story of the Halo series is going?

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Sp4rksLT
God, ajw, domdom, both of you. What the hell? Both of you are like zealots, blinded by fanaticism. One of Bungie the other of 343.


It's funny because you display more of the zealous fanaticism on the side of Bungie than domdom and I combined for our respective sides of the argument. Plus, I deplore a number of choices 343i have made and freely accept that they're not perfect. However, their handling of the lore and interweaving the universe through all aspects of the media is infinitely better than what Bungie did.

Stop and use normal and comprehensive arguments, both of you, not assumptions (especially you ajw, you always use assumptions to break others assumptions).

Erm... what? I have assumed nothing, everything I've said in relation to the lore has been supported with evidence from Halo 3's Terminals and the Forerunner Saga - as this is the main feature of the argument. I'd kindly request you don't start making this kind of bullshyte up to try and get your point across.

Just as a comparison to Halo I'll take Marathon. Anyone could write 300 maybe 500 pages about it. It was really mysterious and a lot was left to assumption. And boy was it a great shooter story wise. And shooting wise too. You could even SKIP the story if you weren't paranoid enough to check every last corner. And talk about Infinity. The main character went out of space-time bounds. Did they make Marathon 4 to explain how his existance continued? Nope, left to fan assumptions.

Ha, on the subject of assumptions you've just gone ahead and said that it was a GOOD thing in this paragraph. Mental gymnastics abound, eh?

Halo series had this huge magic and mystery surrounding forerunners, and that's what I really liked. Some people will agree, some will not, but the mystery was great. Remember the conspiracies? How everyone in the Universe forum wanted to know what was written in the Halo bible. How people made theories of forerunners (and hell, some fanfic is better than that Bear dude wrote) It made Halo feel deeper and the universe more vast than when explained. Because mysteries, you see, don't have any bounds. I think some things don't need explanation and should be left for your heart and your brain to fill in the gaps as YOU see fit. And that was totally fine.

I most certainly do remember those days, and you know what? Nothing has changed. There are still theories being made, they are still of the same size and proportion because the Halo universe still has as much depth (more, some would argue) as it did before.

A mystery left too long becomes repetitive and dull. Frankly, I was getting tired of wandering around the same inert grey structures and never getting any answers. What good is a theory if you can never have an answer for it? Halo has been building towards this 'bigger picture' since 2006, the IRIS Campaign and Halo 3's Terminals were the final stepping stone before reaching shore and unveiling the mystery.

Now really, like I said before, 343 are trying their best to sever their ties to Bungie's Halo bible and the Bungie era canon and to continue on with the post-Reach 343 phase Halo canon. Because it's easier for them to expand on, because they don't have to ask the writers at Bungie or wherever what they intended to expand upon had they released more books.

I beg your pardon? No idea where you're getting this from, you cannot "sever ties" from a universe with 10 years worth of established fiction just because it has moved on to another developer. Again, this is just you making Bungie out to be some idyllic 'do-no-wrong' company so you can use that as leverage to attack 343i.

And from games only point of view, hell, mysterious ending was just about fine. Cliffhangers aren't a bad thing when executed properly. Anyone seen Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels? Did anyone demand a sequel for that?

1) It wasn't a mysterious ending, it was a cliffhanger ending and as long as we're expressing our opinions as fact here Halo 3's was most definitely NOT executed properly. All the plot points leading to the inevitability of Halo 4 converged on the final mission where we learned that we're not truly going to defeat the Gravemind, only delay his return; we're still going to have the issue of 6 Halo rings primed and ready to fire on demand; the Flood will still be out there and most important of all Mendicant Bias is sending John to the Forerunners.

If Halo 3 was truly supposed to be the end of the story, they'd have left John dead at the end of the game instead of adding the extra 2 scenes where he goes into cryo and is seen drifting towards Requiem. None of this 'open-ended' tripe.

We knew that Chief either rests forever, or goes on some new adventure, but really do we need to know what happens to him? He ended the war, went through enough. Let his god damn character rest, will ya?

Then you clearly haven't been paying attention throughout the games - the Human-Covenant war is just a small part of a much larger picture. Joseph Staten created the character of Mendicant Bias which in turn kickstarted a whole chain of events building up to the inevitable Halo 4 - his goal in Contact Harvest is pretty much an exact reflection of his goal at the end of Halo 3.

343 IS created for the sole purpose of milking Halo. And like I said before, it's up to them to either try to make quality content for as long as they can, or just surrender and try to make as MUCH content as they can.

They've been around since 2007 and this is their first Halo game... Quality is subjective, but clearly they're doing something right because Halo's fanbase is still massive and they're often praised for the work they've done in interweaving the lore and producing quality products. Halo Evolutions, the Forerunner Saga, the Kilo-5 Trilogy - all have their ups and downs but this is absolutely no different from when Bungie was developing Halo.

Because from what I've seen,

Bungie time unexplainded mysteries > 343 explained partial BS. (not all the time, but mostly, and personal preference yet again!)


You cite personal preference, but once again pass it off as gospel. IMO 343i have had their share of screw ups with the Halo Encyclopedia and certain narrative choices in Glasslands (portrayal of the Sangheili, Halsey and creation of Spartan-IVs) but to me the good massively outweighs the bad and they're making a conscious effort to make the Halo universe more potent through interweaving the fiction whereas Bungie generally ignored it in the games and when it came to making Reach's story they completely bollocked it up.

  • 06.10.2012 2:45 PM PDT

You probably didn't read the thread subject. Go read it again. I insist.

  • 06.10.2012 2:52 PM PDT
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Wort, wort, wort!

Firt of don't say 343 took the reach way because they didn't the first thing they did was explain the plotholes in reach with the data packets.
Second if you have been up to date you would know that they are continuing Marathon but that is for another time.
another thing there is a line betwen secrecy and just layzines, im not saying that bungie is lazy and neither are you saying that they wanted Halo to stop a 3 because they had were planing Halo 4 and had even developed some concept before scraping it for Halo Reach, also they said that Halo 4 is good and feels Halo.
The forehuner story needed to be expanded, we only knew that they had sacrificed themselves to stop the Flood with the Halos but that was it, myself and most of my friend weren't nowhere near satisfied with what we knew especially with all the hints bungie kept giving us and when Greg series came out it was butt -blam!- awesome, and the fanfictions about Halo are fricking horrrible honestly.
Also the bungie era books removed some big part of the mstery like why were the covenant attacking us.
Finnaly while the original trilogy was a christian (especially cruzades) allegory i bellieve that 343 took a more modern Cold war aproach with the Sangheili civil war, the ONI Black OPS and the forehuner tecnology arms race.
PS sory about grammar english is not my first language


Ahh, I am delighted to see that you saw my opinion as just that, opinion. Truly, by post-reach Halo canon I didn't mean that 343 broke it. Indeed they were doing their very best to abide by those rules, but it's just what happens when the writer changes in the middle of a series.

Bungie probably had planned out a different future for the Halo storyline than 343 did, and some of the 343 tie-ups show us just that, they want to make Halo their own, a franchise which they feel comfortable milking for money *cough* sorry, expanding the series. When Halo 4 is out, 343 can start to ignore Bungie's set canon even more and expand the post Bungie setting.

But this thread is not about that. I very much dislike where the Halo series is going. Why? Because I do not like 343s universe expanding style. And seeing Chief wear new armour without any explanation whatsoever really hurts me. Just as Halo: Reach did, I hate NEEDLESS, AVOIDABLE inconsistances. Haven't seen the game yet, if they explain it - pure awesomeness. If they don't, then why really, wouldn't they? Why would they change the god damn armour without any reason other than "to make it their own".

I also absolutely despise the new styling 343 took too. Really ignoring a lot of Bungie's concept and just making it look Crysis meets GoW (sleeveles elites) meets Halo. They did stay loyal a bit to the weapon design, but again, other needless changes like the grunts or the elites.

I myself shall stay with the pre-343 era Halo series and universe because I like it more, well at least for now. If 343 doesn't have a reasonable explanation other than "artistic vision and integrity" they'll just end up a bunch of morons together with BioWare in my book.

And Marathon - we don't even know what are they going to do with it. Maybe they'll remake the three games, which is indeed very likely, maybe they'll expand in the universe even more. We even could see more linkage between Pathways and Marathon! We just have to wait and see.

This post was my opinion, based on some facts and some of my own observations, please view it as such. If it isn't set in stone it means that part is an opinion, or that I might be utterly wrong about the fact. If so, you have every right to prove me wrong and correct me. Furthermore I encourage a civilized discussion about the matter at hand, which is

Halo series is in the hands of 343. Do you like or dislike what they are doing. Remember to state why and use normal, logical arguments. Keep it clean before we get this locked.

P.S. in reply to ajw up above. I do not defend Bungie, they have made mistakes in their time and Reach was a painful one at that. I just like the Bungie style of things more than 343. That's that. You mention plotholes that came from the games alone, about MB and such. Now, I've got a question for you. Does 343 really need TWO trilogies to give us answers, or are they just trying to extend it as long as they can. Frankly, I think what they put in the forerunner trilogy of books could have been written in half the pages, in a single book. We have not yet seen Halo 4, and when we do, we can argue about quality. For now, it's an argument about the direction.

[Edited on 06.10.2012 2:58 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 2:53 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Sp4rksLT
And seeing Chief wear new armour without any explanation whatsoever really hurts me.


And what about the Arbiter in Halo 2 and 3? We never got an explanation as to how his armour managed to change colour, sprout an over-the shoulder flashlight and mandible guards. We've been told that there will be a canonical explanation for the change in John's armour, we just don't know it yet.

I also absolutely despise the new styling 343 took too. Really ignoring a lot of Bungie's concept and just making it look Crysis meets GoW (sleeveles elites) meets Halo. They did stay loyal a bit to the weapon design, but again, other needless changes like the grunts or the elites.

I can partly agree with this, I detest the new Grunt design - they look like mini-LOTR orcs. I'm relatively ok with the Sangheili appearance, there aren't any major differences aside from the armour of the Minor.

  • 06.10.2012 2:59 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: Sp4rksLT
Firt of don't say 343 took the reach way because they didn't the first thing they did was explain the plotholes in reach with the data packets.
Second if you have been up to date you would know that they are continuing Marathon but that is for another time.
another thing there is a line betwen secrecy and just layzines, im not saying that bungie is lazy and neither are you saying that they wanted Halo to stop a 3 because they had were planing Halo 4 and had even developed some concept before scraping it for Halo Reach, also they said that Halo 4 is good and feels Halo.
The forehuner story needed to be expanded, we only knew that they had sacrificed themselves to stop the Flood with the Halos but that was it, myself and most of my friend weren't nowhere near satisfied with what we knew especially with all the hints bungie kept giving us and when Greg series came out it was butt -blam!- awesome, and the fanfictions about Halo are fricking horrrible honestly.
Also the bungie era books removed some big part of the mstery like why were the covenant attacking us.
Finnaly while the original trilogy was a christian (especially cruzades) allegory i bellieve that 343 took a more modern Cold war aproach with the Sangheili civil war, the ONI Black OPS and the forehuner tecnology arms race.
PS sory about grammar english is not my first language


Ahh, I am delighted to see that you saw my opinion as just that, opinion. Truly, by post-reach Halo canon I didn't mean that 343 broke it. Indeed they were doing their very best to abide by those rules, but it's just what happens when the writer changes in the middle of a series.

Bungie probably had planned out a different future for the Halo storyline than 343 did, and some of the 343 tie-ups show us just that, they want to make Halo their own, a franchise which they feel comfortable milking for money *cough* sorry, expanding the series. When Halo 4 is out, 343 can start to ignore Bungie's set canon even more and expand the post Bungie setting.

But this thread is not about that. I very much dislike where the Halo series is going. Why? Because I do not like 343s universe expanding style. And seeing Chief wear new armour without any explanation whatsoever really hurts me. Just as Halo: Reach did, I hate NEEDLESS, AVOIDABLE inconsistances. Haven't seen the game yet, if they explain it - pure awesomeness. If they don't, then why really, wouldn't they? Why would they change the god damn armour without any reason other than "to make it their own".

I also absolutely despise the new styling 343 took too. Really ignoring a lot of Bungie's concept and just making it look Crysis meets GoW (sleeveles elites) meets Halo. They did stay loyal a bit to the weapon design, but again, other needless changes like the grunts or the elites.

I myself shall stay with the pre-343 era Halo series and universe because I like it more, well at least for now. If 343 doesn't have a reasonable explanation other than "artistic vision and integrity" they'll just end up a bunch of morons together with BioWare in my book.

And Marathon - we don't even know what are they going to do with it. Maybe they'll remake the three games, which is indeed very likely, maybe they'll expand in the universe even more. We even could see more linkage between Pathways and Marathon! We just have to wait and see.

This post was my opinion, based on some facts and some of my own observations, please view it as such. If it isn't set in stone it means that part is an opinion, or that I might be utterly wrong about the fact. If so, you have every right to prove me wrong and correct me. Furthermore I encourage a civilized discussion about the matter at hand, which is

Halo series is in the hands of 343. Do you like or dislike what they are doing. Remember to state why and use normal, logical arguments. Keep it clean before we get this locked.
Frankly i am suprised this hasn't been locked yet and i agree with you in some things (phrometean knights and Halsey Hate) but i believe that 343 has already proved they know what they are doing, also the sleves off while kinda dumb was suposed to show that the covenant is not the organized and well equiped military they were before but instead a bunck of straglers that don't even know how to make their own weapons.
I personaly like where 343 is going and respect your opinion but it bugs me when people talk trash about Halo 4 with only 5 minutes of gameplay EX: killstreaks even thought they are only in specific gametypes ( Infinity slayer). And compare 343 to Reach whent they fixed reach with the data drops

  • 06.10.2012 3:03 PM PDT

1 P17Y 7H3 F00L

KOTOR

I wished the Forerunners stayed dead and pseudo-mythical, but then, where would the Halo series go if not towards confrontations with the Forerunners

  • 06.10.2012 3:11 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: rst7503
I wished the Forerunners stayed dead and pseudo-mythical, but then, where would the Halo series go if not towards confrontations with the Forerunners
we don't really know if they are all alive just a few if any

  • 06.10.2012 3:13 PM PDT


Posted by: fsabran

Posted by: rst7503
I wished the Forerunners stayed dead and pseudo-mythical, but then, where would the Halo series go if not towards confrontations with the Forerunners
we don't really know if they are all alive just a few if any
I certainly don't feel the need of even meeting one of them.

  • 06.10.2012 3:20 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: realdomdom

Posted by: fsabran

Posted by: rst7503
I wished the Forerunners stayed dead and pseudo-mythical, but then, where would the Halo series go if not towards confrontations with the Forerunners
we don't really know if they are all alive just a few if any
I certainly don't feel the need of even meeting one of them.
agree

  • 06.10.2012 3:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Sp4rksLT
And seeing Chief wear new armour without any explanation whatsoever really hurts me.


And what about the Arbiter in Halo 2 and 3? We never got an explanation as to how his armour managed to change colour, sprout an over-the shoulder flashlight and mandible guards.
I'm pretty sure he got help from the UNSC or his fellow Elites. Look at how long his camo can last and tell me that is the same armor. As for color, isn't that because of lighting?

I think a worse canon discrepancy is the 2 extra Elites for Co-op. They don't even have a reasonable point of origin for their flashlights. And they lack uniqueness (other than armor color, the armor is too common. Why not Commando and Aesthetic?).

[Edited on 06.10.2012 3:43 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 3:40 PM PDT
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Wort, wort, wort!

Yeah, like I say most of the time, Arbiter's armor DID receive a SLIGHT recolor, but the bronzy look was there only in the first few levels, because of the lighting. Also, why would UNSC deny Sangheilis a ducttape based flashlight attachment for their armor? You know, when you go on that inevitable night ops. Really, the change wasn't that big to base a hate thread.. While the new Chief's armor on the other hand.. Stylistic my ass, they changed as much as they could. And if I do not receive an explanation I shall buy a ton of nuts and throw them at 343.

  • 06.10.2012 3:46 PM PDT

Oh well, i guess we all have our little differences with Halo 4.

  • 06.10.2012 4:52 PM PDT
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Story-wise, I think Halo 4 is a lot like Halo 1, which I like. They have found a mysterious artificial world in an unknown part of the galaxy. A very important UNSC ship has crash-landed there. The story seems to revolve around the Master Chief and Cortana, who I'm assuming will play important roles in the events that carry out. And a new enemy will be revealed, one which is far worse than any they've had to battle before.

  • 06.10.2012 5:25 PM PDT

Posted by: fsabran

Posted by: realdomdom

Posted by: fsabran

Posted by: rst7503
I wished the Forerunners stayed dead and pseudo-mythical, but then, where would the Halo series go if not towards confrontations with the Forerunners
we don't really know if they are all alive just a few if any
I certainly don't feel the need of even meeting one of them.
agree

  • 06.10.2012 7:38 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
What they became in the last decade was a warrior culture with no wars to fight, a warrior culture with no scientists to keep their technology running.

I am not sure what you are getting at here, to be honest.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
We already have confirmation that the Elites splintered into several factions and fought miniature civil wars with themselves. A Game Informer article just published talking about S:OPs heavily implied that there is more than one Covenant faction being dealt with in H4, or at least in S:OPs. The Covies on Requiem are still believers on the old faith; the first S:OPs mission is about these believers.

Do you have the link?

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Now does that mean that throughout the whole trilogy we'll be fighting Covenant? No. Maybe not even throughout Halo 4, not once this Evil starts gearing up. So the Covenant are in no way back together fighting us, these are just one splintered group from those civil wars. You may be able to hardly call it a war with humanity, but more of a battle brought about by conflicting purposes. So ignoring that they may look like enemies, no one said that we won't join forces somewhere down the line.

How many times will the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" plot twist be used before we should start caring about it? 3? 4? I thought it would have been 1, because then at least it would have some other aspects to it rather than being purely circumstantial. Maybe I would then bother about where the story would go rather than just say "Oh more conflict" and throw in the towel for the next 3 years until the next plot twist of similar identity comes around.

My point is that that story has already been done, and doing it again would not only completely nullify the last time it happened, but demonstrate that nothing really substantial can really develop from it.

And all this still doesn't make 343i's choice to undo the Covenant's potential for characterization any better. The Covenant are still babbling incoherently, and still look as if they belong in a zoo. Even if they evolve to be something more than tin foil for Master Chief to tear through during the game, that won't get any better.

I was sort of expecting them to at least try to develop the Covenant a little bit more, and take Halo 2's evolution further because it has set a standard in that area. I don't know how that is possible with what we have, but good luck on hearing the chatter of friendly Elites as they discuss their opinions on the truce, or the Jackals or the Forerunners, or maybe how they think that Elites from another city state are weirdos, when all they say is "ghourhsilogbiyg".

  • 06.10.2012 8:31 PM PDT
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Did you read the books?

The covenant forces in the shield world were pulled in there like the infinity. They don't even know about the Great Schism.

  • 06.10.2012 11:47 PM PDT

Okay, who did not read the books?
(I know i didn't.)

  • 06.11.2012 3:03 AM PDT
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Wort, wort, wort!


Posted by: ErranInfigo
Did you read the books?

The covenant forces in the shield world were pulled in there like the infinity. They don't even know about the Great Schism.

And therefore forgot how to speak, cut off their sleeves AND forgot how to use their brain? Really now? That explains why they might still be "The Covenant", not as we know, but as they know, it doesn't explain their mental degradation from proud Sangheili elite warriors into zoo attractions. Without sleeves.

  • 06.11.2012 3:29 AM PDT

Rain, and Jazz.
Halo: Tactical

I'm either a fool or an inteligent man, depending on how sleepy or angry I am.

I originaly made an account on 07.27.2007 but I wanted to link my GT and made this account. Don't forget your passwords!

While I, too find irritation with the story I consider sometihng else more important:

The gameplay. As of now Halo 4 looks no fun at all for me when compared to Halo 3.


What is happening to the story right now is a switch in developers, directors, etc. Imagine you see three movies, one sequil after another, and then the fourth movie is made by Michael Bay.

[Edited on 06.11.2012 7:30 AM PDT]

  • 06.11.2012 7:27 AM PDT


Posted by: Arbiter 739
[...] and then the fourth movie is made by Michael Bay.
LOL

  • 06.11.2012 9:51 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Arbiter 739
and then the fourth movie is made by Michael Bay.


Except that the only explosions in the demo was when the Chief threw the plasma grenade at the Watcher and then had it thrown back, and then when the Watcher/Crawlers were killed...

  • 06.11.2012 9:56 AM PDT

Did you post as soon as you saw "last reply by realdomdom" ?

  • 06.11.2012 11:45 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: realdomdom
Did you post as soon as you saw "last reply by realdomdom" ?


No... I posted because I'd been out for the past 8 hours and only just got to check for updates on what's going on in this thread. Don't flatter yourself.

  • 06.11.2012 12:13 PM PDT

"I kill the enemy but do not hate them."-Jun

I'm fine with it for now. It will probably take time to get used to the new eniemies and stuff like that but everything looks good to me.

  • 06.11.2012 1:56 PM PDT

You should be happy 343's continuing this story in their current approach. I'm greatly satisfied to see the Forerunners are playing a significant role in Halo 4. Also pleased to see the Covenant are still active too.

  • 06.11.2012 2:02 PM PDT