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This topic has moved here: Subject: Does anyone dislike where the story of the Halo series is going?
  • Subject: Does anyone dislike where the story of the Halo series is going?
Subject: Does anyone dislike where the story of the Halo series is going?

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
As George 257 said, "Yes, there were open stories still left. But even then it was disclosed, as mind's imagination could finish them on it's own."


You're just repeating his point. ANYTHING can be left to the imagination, it's a pretty damn weak argument to make and that's not good storytelling when THERE'S STILL STORIES TO TELL. Closure is a massive thing in just about every story since man mastered writing, stories without any closure on major plot points fall flat on their faces.
Subjective.


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
Please hand in a survey, supporting your statement.


I find it awfully hypocritical that you demand this kind of evidencefrom me when all you and others here do is spout your constant drivel without supporting it. The only major new thing about the 'new fiction' that is being complained about are some of the writing choices made by Karen Traviss with Glasslands.
You didn't really think i was serious, did you?


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
(BTW, i never knew that about the face. Where can i see it?)


Halo: The Fall of Reach.
I never read that book. Never really read any Halo books. I thought it was the usual give-us-more-money merchandise.

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
"The subtletly and mystery was one of major elements to Halo, that defined it's feel."


And there are still mysterious elements. We know almost nothing about the Precursors, there's still a lot we don't know about Ancient Humanity, the Forerunners and the past of other races. We get small hints at a few events that happened, but very little concrete information is known. The mystery is still present, the only difference is that we know more now than we did 10 years ago (which only makes sense because a mystery drawn out that long becomes repetitive and dull).
You kinda have a point. If they at least had called it a spin-off or something. But, who am i telling this. Sorry.

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
I think with "having a story of their own", George 257 means a completely new story. No strings attached. That stuff.
(George 257, correct me if i'm wrong.)


And yet this still doesn't make sense. 343i have got a 10 year contract with the Halo universe, you're telling me that in this time they shouldn't answer the important questions and instead focus on doing lesser projects just because they're not Bungie?

Once again, this is just stupid. There's no sense to it other than blind fanboyism because the idyllic portrayal people like you two have built of Bungie is nothing more than an illusion you've managed to convince yourselves of.
10 years? Okay, at least it's not eternity.
And how is anything not Halo a lesser project?


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
ajw34307 - use your open-mindedness, which you claim to have, and read AscendantJustice without Greg Bear's books clouding your vision (by which I mean don't use his explanations of the story, but accept what is written there). If you still do not see where my point of view came from, then my previous statement stands - that you are unconviceable.


It's funny because I was an ardent follower of Vociferous's AJ posts back in 2008 when he was doing his Hindsight articles. I know exactly how to look at what he's written without the Forerunner Trilogy in mind BECAUSE I DID FOR 2 YEARS and since the release anyone with sufficient brain capacity can see that the story and portrayal of the Forerunners in the Halo 3 Terminals and Forerunner Trilogy slot together perfectly.

And yes, Cancer is my Solar Sign, good guess! Though you seem to misinterpret it's meaning.

Oh wow, an unfunny joke. It should be of some significance to you that the dark side of Cancerians in that they're "clingy and unable to let go" - a trait you've shown off very well.
It should be of some significance to you that the dark side of Cancerians in that they're "clingy and unable to let go" - a trait you've shown off very well.



Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: George 257
Because you keep bringing me back with your bull-blam!- that is. You are a horrible person and I hope people can see it now.
I'm done with you.


Maybe if you ceased with the mind-numbingly misinformed bollocks [...]
Ugh. Enlighten us. But please make it quick and painless.

[Edited on 06.10.2012 11:25 AM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 11:22 AM PDT

Nope. I quite enjoy where it is headed from a gameplay standpoint.

  • 06.10.2012 11:28 AM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Nope. I quite enjoy where it is headed from a gameplay standpoint.
i would sugest you don't get in this discussion as it has already dissolved into a flamewar

  • 06.10.2012 11:29 AM PDT


Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Nope. I quite enjoy where it is headed from a gameplay standpoint.
I don't really enjoy COD and i don't like the design/story as well.

  • 06.10.2012 11:30 AM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: realdomdom

Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Nope. I quite enjoy where it is headed from a gameplay standpoint.
I don't really enjoy COD and i don't like the design/story as well.
told you

  • 06.10.2012 11:31 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: realdomdom
Subjective.


Irrelevant. Mass Effect 3's ending is awful, there is a 5 hour long series on Youtube dedicated to dissecting every single bit of it and why it's bad. There are dozens of other hour-long videos dedicated to explaining why the game itself is a poor piece of storytelling, the general consensus on the Bioware forums is that the ending is poor for 2 main reasons - how it's completely out of touch with everything established in ME lore and (more importantly) HOW IT OFFERS NO CLOSURE.

I never read that book. Never really read any Halo books. I thought it was the usual give-us-more-money merchandise.

What you thought was wrong, if you've never read the Halo novels then you are in absolutely NO position to comment on the storyline or the universe.

And how is anything not Halo a lesser project?

That's not what I said...

Ugh. Enlighten us. But please make it quick and painless.

If you haven't been enlightened by the argument of the past 2 days then you're beyond help.

  • 06.10.2012 11:32 AM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: ajw34307
You're just repeating his point. ANYTHING can be left to the imagination, it's a pretty damn weak argument to make and that's not good storytelling when THERE'S STILL STORIES TO TELL. Closure is a massive thing in just about every story since man mastered writing, stories without any closure on major plot points fall flat on their faces.

Posted by: realdomdom
Subjective.
Irrelevant.
Oh sorry, yes it was irrelevant. That was the word...


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
I never read that book. Never really read any Halo books. I thought it was the usual give-us-more-money merchandise.


What you thought was wrong, if you've never read the Halo novels then you are in absolutely NO position to comment on the storyline or the universe.
I commented on the Halo games?
But besides that, you are in no position to determine in what position i may be in.
Whew.
That was confusing.


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
And how is anything not Halo a lesser project?
That's not what I said...
Ahahaha! Wow.
Explain what you said.


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
Ugh. Enlighten us. But please make it quick and painless.


If you haven't been enlightened by the argument of the past 2 days then you're beyond help.
THANK YOU!
Finally.

And now something for the dessert, so to speak.
Have you read the thread subject?

  • 06.10.2012 11:42 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


I commented on the Halo games?
But besides that, you are in no position to determine in what position i may be in.
Whew.
That was confusing.


I am, since you're making assumptions about what's essentially half a universe. If you've never read the novels, exactly how can you understand games like Reach or Halo Wars when they're heavily derived from parts of the novels?

Ahahaha! Wow.
Explain what you said.


The main story is the main project. The other games are lesser projects - ODST for example, while being my favourite Halo game only got 8 months development time and is therefore a lesser project.

Have you read the thread subject?

Yes...

  • 06.10.2012 11:48 AM PDT
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Posted by: ajw34307
First of all, you have to ask yourself some fundimental questions when reading the Terminals - how is it that the Forerunner fleet and their weapons are so strong if they were peaceful? How comes there are Forerunner warriors if they're a peaceful race?

Perhaps they were like us during their species' infancy and were aggressive and warlike, but have preserved their military might for good measure now that they have moved beyond that? I think it would be extremely short sighted for them to throw away their military and all the knowledge and experience that they have accumulated in that area all throughout their history. In the event that they encountered another who is as old and advanced as them, who are warlike, they would be pretty screwed.

This, however, does not mean that they were warlike. Not necessarily. Given their role as Galactic Stewards, they would most likely have had to deal with situations like the Human-Covenant war in which one side is completely irrational and delusional, and will not listen to reason. At that point, military intervention, for the welfare of the species that is being wiped out, would be the only choice. What would they do if they had no military? Well, they would not be very efficient at protecting the galaxy, would they? Of course they would need weapons and warriors. Their job demands it. It is also leverage too. There is less likely to be genocidal war happening if the "lesser" races know that the guardians can simply sweep aside their pathetic military's with ease.

Posted by: ajw34307
Why are they so efficient at creating military strategies and putting them into action if they haven't experienced conflict and war?

Well I would refer to my above point, but in this case this is an assumption on your part. The Terminals never stated how efficient they were at making war. Given their lack of success in dealing with the Flood, I would say that they would probably fall on the side of indecision, perhaps reflecting how their pacifist ways have weakened their military might over time.

Posted by: ajw34307
And also, the Librarian refers to the Mantle and puts the Forerunners in a dark light:
The Mantle. You still hold to that [fairy tale] after all that has happened? After this thing has consumed a million worlds?

Can't you see? Belief in the Mantle sealed our doom! Weakened our [protectorates], bred dependence and sloth. Our [so-called Guardianship] has stripped those we would keep safe of any capacity for self-defense!

Were we such noble [Guardians] when we drew our line and abandoned billions to the parasite?


I want to direct you to a key line:
Our so-called Guardianship has stripped those we would keep safe of any capacity for self-defense!

We have a perfect reflection of this action in the Forerunner Saga - their actions against the San'Shyuum and Ancient Humans. Janjur Qom was placed under quarantine, stripping them of their weapons and humanity were blasted back to the Stone Age - thus ridding them OF ANY CAPACITY FOR SELF-DEFENSE.

There are more lines like this in the Terminals, but that's an extremely prominent one which just seems to be ignored by people who say that the Forerunner were peaceful. They weren't. There is no clash, this was all buried down in detail in the Terminals and 343i were the ones who had the sense to dig deep down into the context it creates - which is extremely limited since there are a grand total of 3 Forerunners in the Halo 3 Terminals and they establish that their population numbered in the trillions.

There is another phrase in there that is often missed. It is this one:

bred dependence and sloth
I think the term "Not necessarily" applies here. That seems to more or less reflect how eons of guardianship have lead the lesser races to grow complacent with their security in the Forerunner's territory. Every issue they had they would ask big brother to deal with, but when the time came that big brother was not around to protect them, they didn't know what to do. Yes, the Forerunners stripped their protectorates of the capacity for self-defense, but in an indirect fashion. It doesn't necessarily indicate that they stomped into some poor species solar system, ransacked their military and upended their autonomy.

As a fan of Greg Bear's work, I can appreciate what he has brought to the table; it's an interesting twist on the "ancient guardian civilization" trope, but I think that there are also perhaps some valid reasons as to why some Halo fans might dislike them.

  • 06.10.2012 11:50 AM PDT

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The story is taking a huge turn, but much has happened in the last four years, so this big of a turn is no surprise. I am actually glad that new enemies are being introduced into the story, we have been fighting the same dudes for past few games, so a change is really nice.

Although the Covenant are back, they are no longer a major threat to you.

  • 06.10.2012 11:52 AM PDT
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I like where it's going to be honest. There really is a need for this game to carry on. I don't think it was concluded properly in Halo 3. Only way Halo ends, is when the Chief dies.

  • 06.10.2012 11:54 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
I am, since you're making assumptions about what's essentially half a universe. If you've never read the novels, exactly how can you understand games like Reach or Halo Wars when they're heavily derived from parts of the novels?


You do know Reach was waaay different than the book, right? there were so many differences between the two that you just can not say that it was "heavily derived" from the novel...

  • 06.10.2012 12:12 PM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
I commented on the Halo games?
But besides that, you are in no position to determine in what position i may be in.
Whew.
That was confusing.
I am, since you're making assumptions about what's essentially half a universe.
That doesn't matter regarding the fact, that you can not tell me in what position i may be in to talk about something.


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: realdomdom
If you've never read the novels, exactly how can you understand games like Reach or Halo Wars when they're heavily derived from parts of the novels?
I don't know. You tell me.


Posted by: ajw34307
b]Posted by:[/b] realdomdom
Ahahaha! Wow.
Explain what you said.
The main story is the main project. The other games are lesser projects - ODST for example, while being my favourite Halo game only got 8 months development time and is therefore a lesser project.
I did not say 343i should do a "lesser project".


Posted by: ajw34307
b]Posted by:[/b] realdomdom
Have you read the thread subject?
Yes...
Please, read the thread subject.


Posted by: blade246
The story is taking a huge turn, but much has happened in the last four years, so this big of a turn is no surprise. I am actually glad that new enemies are being introduced into the story, we have been fighting the same dudes for past few games, so a change is really nice.

Although the Covenant are back, they are no longer a major threat to you.
Gameplay-wise that might be true.


Posted by: kkrotz
I like where it's going to be honest. There really is a need for this game to carry on. I don't think it was concluded properly in Halo 3. Only way Halo ends, is when the Chief dies.
Practically, he did.

[Edited on 06.10.2012 12:14 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 12:13 PM PDT


Posted by: realdomdom
Posted by: kkrotz
I like where it's going to be honest. There really is a need for this game to carry on. I don't think it was concluded properly in Halo 3. Only way Halo ends, is when the Chief dies.
Practically, he did.

But technically, he didn't.

  • 06.10.2012 12:19 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Finally, someone able to hold a good argument.

Posted by: Neutrino
Perhaps they were like us during their species' infancy and were aggressive and warlike, but have preserved their military might for good measure now that they have moved beyond that? I think it would be extremely short sighted for them to throw away their military and all the knowledge and experience that they have accumulated in that area all throughout their history. In the event that they encountered another who is as old and advanced as them, who are warlike, they would be pretty screwed.

This, however, does not mean that they were warlike. Not necessarily. Given their role as Galactic Stewards, they would most likely have had to deal with situations like the Human-Covenant war in which one side is completely irrational and delusional, and will not listen to reason. At that point, military intervention, for the welfare of the species that is being wiped out, would be the only choice. What would they do if they had no military? Well, they would not be very efficient at protecting the galaxy, would they? Of course they would need weapons and warriors. Their job demands it. It is also leverage too. There is less likely to be genocidal war happening if the "lesser" races know that the guardians can simply sweep aside their pathetic military's with ease.


Unfortunately, we don't know this to be fact as the Terminals don't tell us. Looking to the Forerunner Saga, we know that the Forerunners of old managed to somehow drive the Precursors out of the galaxy and even bring 1 of their races to extinction (minus the Timeless One) and 10,000 years before they fought the Flood they reduced humanity back to the Stone Age - the final battle being at Charum Hakkor where they bombed the planet for 50 years.

Well I would refer to my above point, but in this case this is an assumption on your part. The Terminals never stated how efficient they were at making war. Given their lack of success in dealing with the Flood, I would say that they would probably fall on the side of indecision, perhaps reflecting how their pacifist ways have weakened their military might over time.

I disagree. The Didact's dialogue in the Terminals is very telling about their 'expert' ways of adapting to tactics and creating their own as a counter-offensive, enough to keep the war going for 3 centuries while being kept a secret from most of the Forerunner population for many years.

There is another phrase in there that is often missed. It is this one:

bred dependence and sloth
I think the term "Not necessarily" applies here. That seems to more or less reflect how eons of guardianship have lead the lesser races to grow complacent with their security in the Forerunner's territory. Every issue they had they would ask big brother to deal with, but when the time came that big brother was not around to protect them, they didn't know what to do. Yes, the Forerunners stripped their protectorates of the capacity for self-defense, but in an indirect fashion. It doesn't necessarily indicate that they stomped into some poor species solar system, ransacked their military and upended their autonomy.


We don't know that though because the Terminals don't go into detail beyond that statement there, but in the Forerunner Trilogy it's pretty much established that the whole "dependence and sloth" line is applied to the Forerunners, for instance with the Confirmer who became unattentive to Janjur Qom and thus couldn't prevent the San'Shyuum uprising until Faber fired the Halo to sterilize the insurrection there.

The San'Shyuum in fact were plotting the whole time the Confirmer was sat around on his arse, and if it weren't for the firing of the Halo ring they'd probably have gotten away with their uprising.

Posted by: wraith58
You do know Reach was waaay different than the book, right? there were so many differences between the two that you just can not say that it was "heavily derived" from the novel...


Yes. Ever since Reach was released, I have been at the forefront of fans criticising the story for being the worst in the series. However, it is heavily derived from the books because there is no mention of things like the Spartan-IIIs, Halsey and all that during the games.

  • 06.10.2012 12:20 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: realdomdom
I still can't tell if you are serious or not

  • 06.10.2012 12:24 PM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307
Finally, someone able to hold a good argument.
Are you kidding me?


Posted by: wraith58
Posted by: realdomdom
Posted by: kkrotz
I like where it's going to be honest. There really is a need for this game to carry on. I don't think it was concluded properly in Halo 3. Only way Halo ends, is when the Chief dies.
Practically, he did.

But technically, he didn't.
You are right. But practically, that doesn't matter.


Posted by: fsabran
Posted by: realdomdom
I still can't tell if you are serious or not
Haha. No? Oh.


[Edited on 06.10.2012 12:29 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 12:25 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: realdomdom
Posted by: fsabran
Posted by: realdomdom
I still can't tell if you are serious or not
Haha. No? Oh.
No really i can't tell could you please enlighten me?

  • 06.10.2012 12:28 PM PDT

Posted by: fsabran

Posted by: realdomdom
Posted by: fsabran
Posted by: realdomdom
I still can't tell if you are serious or not
Haha. No? Oh.
No really i can't tell could you please enlighten me?
Sorry to say this, but no. I am mostly serious. For a more detailed answer provide a more detailed question. (IN PM PLEASE)

[Edited on 06.10.2012 12:31 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 12:31 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: realdomdom
Posted by: fsabran

Posted by: realdomdom
Posted by: fsabran
Posted by: realdomdom
I still can't tell if you are serious or not
Haha. No? Oh.
No really i can't tell could you please enlighten me?
Sorry to say this, but no. I am mostly serious. For a more detailed answer provide a more detailed question. (IN PM PLEASE)
no im happy enough. Thanks

  • 06.10.2012 12:37 PM PDT

A reminder to everyone in this thread. Read the thread subject.

  • 06.10.2012 12:47 PM PDT
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Wort, wort, wort!

God, ajw, domdom, both of you. What the hell? Both of you are like zealots, blinded by fanaticism. One of Bungie the other of 343.

I was with dom dom on the argument's side, but now I just think both of you are acting like children. Stop and use normal and comprehensive arguments, both of you, not assumptions (especially you ajw, you always use assumptions to break others assumptions).

Just as a comparison to Halo I'll take Marathon. Anyone could write 300 maybe 500 pages about it. It was really mysterious and a lot was left to assumption. And boy was it a great shooter story wise. And shooting wise too. You could even SKIP the story if you weren't paranoid enough to check every last corner. And talk about Infinity. The main character went out of space-time bounds. Did they make Marathon 4 to explain how his existance continued? Nope, left to fan assumptions.

Halo series had this huge magic and mystery surrounding forerunners, and that's what I really liked. Some people will agree, some will not, but the mystery was great. Remember the conspiracies? How everyone in the Universe forum wanted to know what was written in the Halo bible. How people made theories of forerunners (and hell, some fanfic is better than that Bear dude wrote) It made Halo feel deeper and the universe more vast than when explained. Because mysteries, you see, don't have any bounds. I think some things don't need explanation and should be left for your heart and your brain to fill in the gaps as YOU see fit. And that was totally fine.

Now really, like I said before, 343 are trying their best to sever their ties to Bungie's Halo bible and the Bungie era canon and to continue on with the post-Reach 343 phase Halo canon. Because it's easier for them to expand on, because they don't have to ask the writers at Bungie or wherever what they intended to expand upon had they released more books.

And from games only point of view, hell, mysterious ending was just about fine. Cliffhangers aren't a bad thing when executed properly. Anyone seen Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels? Did anyone demand a sequel for that?

We knew that Chief either rests forever, or goes on some new adventure, but really do we need to know what happens to him? He ended the war, went through enough. Let his god damn character rest, will ya?

343 IS created for the sole purpose of milking Halo. And like I said before, it's up to them to either try to make quality content for as long as they can, or just surrender and try to make as MUCH content as they can. Because from what I've seen,

Bungie time unexplainded mysteries > 343 explained partial BS. (not all the time, but mostly, and personal preference yet again!)

  • 06.10.2012 1:59 PM PDT


Posted by: realdomdom
A reminder to everyone in this thread. Read the thread subject.


Bumping this for your convenience.

  • 06.10.2012 2:24 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: Sp4rksLT
God, ajw, domdom, both of you. What the hell? Both of you are like zealots, blinded by fanaticism. One of Bungie the other of 343.

I was with dom dom on the argument's side, but now I just think both of you are acting like children. Stop and use normal and comprehensive arguments, both of you, not assumptions (especially you ajw, you always use assumptions to break others assumptions).

Just as a comparison to Halo I'll take Marathon. Anyone could write 300 maybe 500 pages about it. It was really mysterious and a lot was left to assumption. And boy was it a great shooter story wise. And shooting wise too. You could even SKIP the story if you weren't paranoid enough to check every last corner. And talk about Infinity. The main character went out of space-time bounds. Did they make Marathon 4 to explain how his existance continued? Nope, left to fan assumptions.

Halo series had this huge magic and mystery surrounding forerunners, and that's what I really liked. Some people will agree, some will not, but the mystery was great. Remember the conspiracies? How everyone in the Universe forum wanted to know what was written in the Halo bible. How people made theories of forerunners (and hell, some fanfic is better than that Bear dude wrote) It made Halo feel deeper and the universe more vast than when explained. Because mysteries, you see, don't have any bounds. I think some things don't need explanation and should be left for your heart and your brain to fill in the gaps as YOU see fit. And that was totally fine.

Now really, like I said before, 343 are trying their best to sever their ties to Bungie's Halo bible and the Bungie era canon and to continue on with the post-Reach 343 phase Halo canon. Because it's easier for them to expand on, because they don't have to ask the writers at Bungie or wherever what they intended to expand upon had they released more books.

And from games only point of view, hell, mysterious ending was just about fine. Cliffhangers aren't a bad thing when executed properly. Anyone seen Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels? Did anyone demand a sequel for that?

We knew that Chief either rests forever, or goes on some new adventure, but really do we need to know what happens to him? He ended the war, went through enough. Let his god damn character rest, will ya?

343 IS created for the sole purpose of milking Halo. And like I said before, it's up to them to either try to make quality content for as long as they can, or just surrender and try to make as MUCH content as they can. Because from what I've seen,

Bungie time unexplainded mysteries > 343 explained partial BS. (not all the time, but mostly, and personal preference yet again!)
First of don't say 343 took the reach way because they didn't the first thing they did was explain the plotholes in reach with the data packets.
Second if you have been up to date you would know that they are continuing Marathon but that is for another time.
another thing there is a line betwen secrecy and just layzines, im not saying that bungie is lazy and neither are you saying that they wanted Halo to stop a 3 because they had were planing Halo 4 and had even developed some concept before scraping it for Halo Reach, also they said that Halo 4 is good and feels Halo.
The forehuner story needed to be expanded, we only knew that they had sacrificed themselves to stop the Flood with the Halos but that was it, myself and most of my friend weren't nowhere near satisfied with what we knew especially with all the hints bungie kept giving us and when Greg series came out it was butt -blam!- awesome, and the fanfictions about Halo are fricking horrrible honestly.
Also the bungie era books removed some big part of the mstery like why were the covenant attacking us.
Finnaly while the original trilogy was a christian (especially cruzades) allegory i bellieve that 343 took a more modern Cold war aproach with the Sangheili civil war, the ONI Black OPS and the forehuner tecnology arms race.
PS sory about grammar english is not my first language



[Edited on 06.10.2012 2:43 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 2:37 PM PDT

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: realdomdom
A reminder to everyone in this thread. Read the thread subject.

Bumping this for your convenience.


[Edited on 06.10.2012 2:42 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 2:42 PM PDT