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Subject: Whats the cannon difficulty in halo?

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
But it does break immersion! :P

Yeah, I know. But they made no effort to make a legendary ending, either, so I guess they just made a general one.

  • 06.09.2012 4:02 PM PDT

Many gave their lives so that we could live on. I intend to honor them by remembering them. Remember Cyborg. Remember John. Remember Noble.

According to Dietz - it could be Easy (shotgun on The Flood level).
According to Nylund - it could be Legendary (because humanity is getting obliterated, so that is my guess).

  • 06.12.2012 11:38 AM PDT
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Reach beats GoW!
Reach beats CoD!!
Reach beats everything!!!

Taking into account the backstory of the games, specially the info on the Halo CE booklet, and most importantly, the novels, the REAL difficulty would be placed way above legendary in most aspects, except in damage.

Most of your marine friends would die upon entering a fight, with 1-2 plasma shots taking out a fully armored marine, 1-2 needler shots as well, since they explode and tear out holes individually in marines' armor and skin... most other Covie weapons would take out marines instantly, just imagine fuel rods, carbines, plasma grenades, spikers, gravity hammers, and the numerous vehicles.

At the same time, humans are very competent tactically, and with the great damage issued by human guns, standard Covenant infantry would be dealt with quite easily, as grunts are killed with a shot to their gas masks, or conversely, with very few rounds of automatic fire. Elites get taken out with 10-20 bullets of controlled automatic fire, more if their shield is stronger, although a fully shielded Zealot goes down with a full MA5B clip, or 60 rounds. A well placed grenade also is described as being powerful enough to kill a complete squad, or 1-2 elites, 3-6 grunts and a pair of jackals. Rocket launchers' explosions are described as powerful enough to completely destroy a wraith and damage the surrounding area, etc.

TL;DR Mythic difficulty in terms of enemy numbers, intelligence, friendly resistance, etc. but Easy-Normal when talking about damage and kill times.

  • 06.12.2012 10:25 PM PDT

What a waste....

Heroic, hence it being the way Halo is meant to be played.

  • 06.12.2012 10:43 PM PDT
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Reach beats GoW!
Reach beats CoD!!
Reach beats everything!!!


Posted by: Nocbl2
Heroic, hence it being the way Halo is meant to be played.


You sir, seem devoid of any knowledge in this matter. Thank you for gracing this thread with another useless reply.

  • 06.12.2012 10:55 PM PDT

the closest you're going to get is heroic.

  • 06.13.2012 1:17 AM PDT

GT: Ross Spartan117

I also believe that it's canon that Marines can kill things other than grunts and the occasional jackal. I remember in Halo 2 Heroic, the Marines couldn't kill sangheili to save their lives...literally.

  • 06.13.2012 8:07 AM PDT
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Turtles

Bungie stated it was heroic

  • 06.13.2012 8:45 AM PDT

Many gave their lives so that we could live on. I intend to honor them by remembering them. Remember Cyborg. Remember John. Remember Noble.


Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

Posted by: Nocbl2
Heroic, hence it being the way Halo is meant to be played.


You sir, seem devoid of any knowledge in this matter. Thank you for gracing this thread with another useless reply.


You don't know that, maybe he just doesn't want to analyse all the books with us.
Besides, game canon's top priority, so it isn't complete bull. But we all know Bungie was setting the difficulty to be playable, so stating it is automatically Heroic may not be so simple...

But then again, wasn't Nylund trying to make the story dramatic? Maybe humanity wasn't supposed to be getting it's ass kicked so hard. I mean, in the games, the situation doesn't seem so dire, but here I am simply presenting my feeling.

  • 06.13.2012 11:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: Ross Spartan117
I also believe that it's canon that Marines can kill things other than grunts and the occasional jackal. I remember in Halo 2 Heroic, the Marines couldn't kill sangheili to save their lives...literally.
The AI have been getting worse with each Halo game because they've become stale (and sabotaged in Reach).

They have no prioritization, it's just shoot the first enemy they see.

They do not prioritize where to shoot. With Wraiths, they shoot the wings, which doesn't do anything. With Jackals, they shoot the center. The only enemy I can say they prioritize well on is Grunts. It is a very sad thing to see a group of Jackals wipe out all my marines. That's why I liked CE Jackals. Their evasive rolls gave the marines a chance to actually hit him. Bungie has been focused on the player's difficulty, which is why they now have 1 slot shields and do not do rolls.

And of course, the marines can't do any damage when meleeing. This means rocket launcher marines on foot will inevitably be toast since the desired combat range of most enemies is often close range and they do not have the brains of H2 marines to back away.

[Edited on 06.13.2012 3:14 PM PDT]

  • 06.13.2012 3:12 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

If Bungie actually stated that heroic is the canonical difficulty, then I am very happy they are no longer managing the Universe. That has to be a joke.

it does not take 16 armor piercing Assault Rifle rounds to take out a Grunt. Period. This is even more "un-canonical" than taking slightly less damage from plasma fire on normal.

Also, only Halo CE managed to show marines' endurance in terms of taking plasma fire. Everything after that was bunk.

  • 06.14.2012 6:44 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
If Bungie actually stated that heroic is the canonical difficulty
I'd like to see this statement, which many people seem to refer to...

  • 06.14.2012 10:25 PM PDT

Many gave their lives so that we could live on. I intend to honor them by remembering them. Remember Cyborg. Remember John. Remember Noble.

From the way I see it, when I first read Halo books, it was a few months before Reach was released. When I read Nylund's books, I was simply shocked that humanity was getting it's ass-kicked so hard. I thought Nylund played Halo on some worse than Legendary difficulty, because it was unbelievable. A team of Spartan-IIs would be cautious even when they fought like a damn dozen of Grunts. So I came to the conclusion, that he overdid it a bit.

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
If Bungie actually stated that heroic is the canonical difficulty
I'd like to see this statement, which many people seem to refer to...

I think that when you choose the difficulties, and you would check out heroic, it would say: "The way Halo is meant to be played."

[Edited on 06.15.2012 2:45 AM PDT]

  • 06.15.2012 2:44 AM PDT

"We go together like Peanut-butter and ladies"
--Shake and Bake--

I agree with flamedude. Its something way above legendary, though its not something we can judge because the Spartans from the cannon are on a different level of whats capable in the game.

Posted by: flamedude
It's got to be something way above Legendary. Mjolnir should be able to absorb two plasma rounds from a Covenant weapon, once the shields are down the armor itself can barely withstand a shot before disintegrating.

Of course this is a setting where a Spartan is truly a Spartan. They are much faster and capable than the Spartan we see in the videogame, capable of killing thousands of enemies in a single strike. They are simultaneously weak, vulnerable, powerful and lethal.

  • 06.15.2012 9:03 AM PDT

What a waste....


Posted by: George 257

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

Posted by: Nocbl2
Heroic, hence it being the way Halo is meant to be played.


You sir, seem devoid of any knowledge in this matter. Thank you for gracing this thread with another useless reply.


You don't know that, maybe he just doesn't want to analyse all the books with us.
Besides, game canon's top priority, so it isn't complete bull. But we all know Bungie was setting the difficulty to be playable, so stating it is automatically Heroic may not be so simple...

But then again, wasn't Nylund trying to make the story dramatic? Maybe humanity wasn't supposed to be getting it's ass kicked so hard. I mean, in the games, the situation doesn't seem so dire, but here I am simply presenting my feeling.
Since we can't actually achieve any "true" canon difficulty, Halo should be on Heroic. Marines die pretty quickly, but you can still kill Covenant at a good speed.

[Edited on 06.15.2012 11:21 AM PDT]

  • 06.15.2012 11:20 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: George 257
Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
If Bungie actually stated that heroic is the canonical difficulty
I'd like to see this statement, which many people seem to refer to...

I think that when you choose the difficulties, and you would check out heroic, it would say: "The way Halo is meant to be played."
That refers to game balance. Bungie wants you to play on heroic.

EDIT: Reposting: Posted by: me
And as said, there is no canon difficulty. Elite minors die from an AR burst, ultras take about 15 rounds (shields, that is). Brutes can take a lot of bodyshots, but die from a headshot. Grunts and jackals, burst to the center mass should be enough most of the time. SPARTANs cannot be killed by smaller human weapons, and small caliber guns can't penetrate marine body armor either, but plasma goes right trough. Should protect from shrapnel, though. Not sure where jackal shields fit in all of this...

EDIT: Also, since AI is not a factor, marines actually kill stuff. Zealot caught in the open = dead zealot.


[Edited on 06.15.2012 11:41 AM PDT]

  • 06.15.2012 11:38 AM PDT

I'm an Anarchist. I don't need a government to be a good person, but I'm glad it's here because some of you clearly do.

Heroic is the way the game was designed to be played, BUT the game was not designed to be faithful to the canon in game mechanics.

  • 06.15.2012 12:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: Acres 057
Heroic is the way the game was designed to be played, BUT the game was not designed to be faithful to the canon in game mechanics.
It disappoints me how there are still no intermediate levels between Normal and Heroic and Heroic and Legendary.

Due to the increase in damage in H2 and onward, you'd think that Bungie or 343 would have provided a difficulty that compensates for the loss of true Heroic and Legendary for CE fans.

Heroic and Legendary in newer games = absurd or just annoying

  • 06.15.2012 12:23 PM PDT

I'm an Anarchist. I don't need a government to be a good person, but I'm glad it's here because some of you clearly do.

The biggest problem in making canon-faithful game mechanics is that no matter how fine-tuned damage ratios are, the AI just isn't good enough to replicate actual rational thought, so they have to compensate by tilting the odds in the AI's favor and screwing the player, resulting in AI being able to take way more damage than realistically possible.

There is no surprise and shock in AI. In the end, they're predictable down to the last movement. Nervous and aggressive model animation and speech disguise this.

Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 is a fine example of predictable AI. By taking different routes to the same objective, AI will spawn in different predictable locations, but will behave the same basic way regardless of where they're spawned.

Despite the predictability of their spawning, the gameplay feels quite realistic (in comparison to other shooters) because the enemies utilize cover and react to the player, rather than just a random sequence of shoot and cover, like in Call of Duty (not bashing).

The behavior changes from Game to Game, obviously, and finding the right balance between frustration and difficulty remains as a key component in the AI design, just like any other part of the game.

I think Bungie did a fantastic job with the Brutes from Halo 2, where they'd go from tactical to berserk, but I think it would've been better if that transition weren't so predictable.

This predictability is also present in games like Forza where AI drivers will stick to the driving-line with little variation, and even Puzzle Games. It's not just a shooter thing.

Ultimately, and simply, the AI just ain't good enough for the realism to match the graphics and physics, and they can't just put more effort into the AI and cut back on graphics and physics because the technology for more realistic AI just isn't there yet.

Unfortunately, a lot of modern developers try to make the game realistic by tilting the odds too much in the AI's favor, attempting to force the player to play very carefully, as they might in real life combat. What happens in this scenario is the player usually becomes stuck at a certain point, and no matter how they approach that point, they get stuck behind the same rock or tank, and can't get past a handful of well-positioned enemies, when in reality if they were to approach that isolated situation differently, the sequence of events would probably lead the opposition to being positioned differently, granting them an easier advancement... but instead they begin to recognize the pattern in the AI, and become frustrated.

I think the very high-end PC RTS games are the best examples of AI with good algorithms and behavior, but those games usually showcase good unit behavior, rather than good individual AI, which is what we want in FPS games.


===========================

If you really want Canon-faithful game mechanics, what you'd have to expect is a game that plays entirely slower, because Spartans are totally faster than we are; in thinking and physical movement.
You'd have to expect AI that doesn't so much react to the player, but to the other AI, friend and foe.
You'd have to expect damage ratios to be realistic - 8 AR bullets to take down an Elite - shields and all, and 2 AR bullets to take down a Marine.
You'd have to expect absolutely minimal checkpoints.

lol, it'd be a lot like classic gaming.

The game would change entirely, and it would not be what we have come to know and expect as Halo.

Not to mention the flood of threads about how 343 broke the game and everything is overpowered.

[Edited on 06.15.2012 1:24 PM PDT]

  • 06.15.2012 1:03 PM PDT

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