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Subject: Could a super mac 1 hit ko a super carrier?


Posted by: Makko Mace

Posted by: Elder Bias

Posted by: Makko Mace
The round isn't big enough to rip the ship apart, it would just make a hole straight through, even if it could somehow break the shields.


Can you read?

It clearly states that it shatters any ships. I recall, CSS class ship is 1,000 to 1,200 meters long and compared to MAC slugs, its pretty small compared to those ships but it still does lot of damage.


Yeah and the supercarrie is 28km long... it would be like shooting a needle through an elephant, it wouldn't do enough damage, even if it went right through and came out the other side.


Or perhaps a cruiser liner :P.

  • 06.11.2012 8:58 PM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Or perhaps a cruiser liner :P.


Energy released from Super MAC is extremely tremendous, it would likely overpenerate Supercarrier. If it hits the reactor, it's game over for Supercarrier. Or there is other likely scenario that SMAC slug would cause tremendous damage inside of Supercarrier due to kinetic energy transferred to the surface of ship and its inferior.

[Edited on 06.11.2012 9:08 PM PDT]

  • 06.11.2012 9:07 PM PDT

If it had shields up then the transfer of energy caused by the extreme deceleration of the slug would cause a massive release of thermal energy when would vaporise the shields atleast at that point. If the slug got through shields it would cannon through the ship and if the carrier was unshielded the slug could probably gut it fore to aft atleast damaging it making it more vulnerable. Remeber ther were 20 of these at reach and earth had 300 so they would have overlapping fields of fire and would focus on the larger ships first and let the ships deal with the larger ones. If it doesn't KO it in 1 hit then 2 or 3 would leave it dead in space.

  • 06.12.2012 1:22 AM PDT

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What happens if you whack a baseball bat (A metal one) on the ground really hard? If the outer casing doesn't dent, like the shields, the kinectic energy is pushed inwards. That's why the titanium bats that have a dense outer casing have broken insides when whacked on the ground.

The same applies to Covenant Super Carriers. The SMAC is the Kinetic force and the carrier is the bat. The shields don't dent or bend, and since so much energy is being focused in one place (Not to mention other platofrms firing at one target) that the inner hull would crack at the very least.

  • 06.12.2012 1:30 AM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.


Posted by: Multijirachi
What happens if you whack a baseball bat (A metal one) on the ground really hard? If the outer casing doesn't dent, like the shields, the kinectic energy is pushed inwards. That's why the titanium bats that have a dense outer casing have broken insides when whacked on the ground.

The same applies to Covenant Super Carriers. The SMAC is the Kinetic force and the carrier is the bat. The shields don't dent or bend, and since so much energy is being focused in one place (Not to mention other platofrms firing at one target) that the inner hull would crack at the very least.


Evidence? How you know if Supercarrier utilizes similar method as you talked about?

Direct quote with page numbers or a direct link to video with specific time or link to canonical article, please.

  • 06.12.2012 2:23 AM PDT


Posted by: Elder Bias

Posted by: Multijirachi
What happens if you whack a baseball bat (A metal one) on the ground really hard? If the outer casing doesn't dent, like the shields, the kinectic energy is pushed inwards. That's why the titanium bats that have a dense outer casing have broken insides when whacked on the ground.

The same applies to Covenant Super Carriers. The SMAC is the Kinetic force and the carrier is the bat. The shields don't dent or bend, and since so much energy is being focused in one place (Not to mention other platofrms firing at one target) that the inner hull would crack at the very least.


Evidence? How you know if Supercarrier utilizes similar method as you talked about?

Direct quote with page numbers or a direct link to video with specific time or link to canonical article, please.


Yeah. There isn't proof the same method applies to Covenant or forerunner or any halo shields.

Can be theorized yes, but they have never really said exactly how they work IIRC.

  • 06.12.2012 2:29 AM PDT

I think that the discussion as to whether the shields would stay are pointless as:
The energy is hitting the energy shield in a very sort amount of time(the time taken for the whole round to hit the shield) on a very small area, and this means that the power out put per m^2 must be incredibly high for the shield not to fail, and furthermore this W/m^2 is spread the same over the whole shield, which would be massive. So even if the covenant could make a power plant capable of producing 1000 times the power of the ones the UNSC use to power the mac round, this would be spread out over the entire ship, and the mac round is is one tiny place so would punch through.
When it hits the ship, it would either retain almost all of its KE and go through making a hole in the ship, or slow down a lot and transfer its energy to the ship, making it shatter

  • 06.12.2012 3:05 AM PDT
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People don't understand how ballistics work, do they?

Sabot rounds in tanks are very thin, they result in small holes through tanks, with no explosive charge.

However, if they penetrate,the tank blows up.

This is because the magazine explodes, due to the tremendous amount of energy. The shard could result in deadly shrapnel, killing the crew and it's systems.

Multiply that by 1000000000 and you get the Super Mac.

If it penetrates the shields, it's game over. The thing could be vaporized.

Halo Uprising revealed that it can 1hk even though it penetrates right through.

The ship literally disintegrates.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 3:28 AM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 3:14 AM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron


Can be theorized yes, but they have never really said exactly how they work IIRC.


So you can't claim that the ships won't be vaporized when the Kinetic force hits them, as the shields have never been explained. How do you know the Kinetic force won't be evenly dispersed? How can you say that the Carrier won't be destroyed in one hit if you don't know how the shields work?

The shields cannot bend anyway, as in First Strike they are active a little bit over the hull, so bending inwards you touch the ship, damaging it.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 3:31 AM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 3:31 AM PDT


Posted by: Multijirachi

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron


Can be theorized yes, but they have never really said exactly how they work IIRC.


So you can't claim that the ships won't be vaporized when the Kinetic force hits them, as the shields have never been explained. How do you know the Kinetic force won't be evenly dispersed? How can you say that the Carrier won't be destroyed in one hit if you don't know how the shields work?

The shields cannot bend anyway, as in First Strike they are active a little bit over the hull, so bending inwards you touch the ship, damaging it.


I never said "100% sure, a super mac CAN NEVER DESTROY A SUPER CARRIER IN ONE HIT."

I however, have been going "I don't see this 'round hits, shields stay up, ship explodes' stuff". I also point out the massive size difference between the largest ship we've seen a super MAC station fire at (assault carrier) and the super carrier, going "I don't see a single hit being able to utterly disable or destroy this ship."

  • 06.12.2012 4:12 AM PDT


Posted by: Quantam
People don't understand how ballistics work, do they?

Sabot rounds in tanks are very thin, they result in small holes through tanks, with no explosive charge.

However, if they penetrate,the tank blows up.



What are you on about?

When sabot rounds enter a tank fragments of metal fly off in all directions, but these shards kill people rather than blow stuff up.

A mac round is a 3000 ton tungsten slug. If the slug is harder/tougher than the hull, then it should not break into pieces but go straight through

  • 06.12.2012 4:17 AM PDT

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I am the last of the primes.

Rather then the super mac hitting form the side on, What would happen if it front ways? Or like it hit the nose of the super carrier and went through the entire lenght of the ship if it could that is.

  • 06.12.2012 5:34 AM PDT

Do shields even absorb/deflect kinetic energy? I assume they don't.

  • 06.12.2012 7:09 AM PDT
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Regardless of how the shield exactly works. All the bull-blam!- of thermal backlash and blabla doesnt matter.
1. you have a round with a certain speed and mass. When it hits it's target, depending on it being a solid collision or a elastic collision and the angle of the impact, some part of the kinetic energy is transferred to the target.

2. the shield is powered by something, which in turn allows the shield to deflect a percentage of the power generated (there is always loss in power). However, power: j/s and kinetic energy is simply joule, so I would not really know how much energy it can actually reflect. It could store energy, this way a smaller generator can reflect a very powerfull shot once every few minutes?

3. This is the most important part: the slugg has kinetic energy (the energy created by the impact can never be more then the kinetic energy and is most likely close to 75% of the kinetic energy, but that depends on the angle in which the slugg hits the target. So it doesn't matter if thermal backlash occurs or not, that's just another way of describing the way the energy is released.). The shield can absorb/reflect a certain amount of energy. If the shield holds, nothing happens to the ship, since all the energy is absorbed/deflected. If the shield do not hold, but can only aborb say 70% of the actual kinetic energy transferred from the slug to the shields, the rest is transferred to the ship. But again there will be loss of energy.

In my opinion this entire discussion is completely useless and full of people that don't have an understanding of physics.
We do not know how strong the shields are and we do not know how resistant a supercruiser is to damage (the plating etc.).

Ps: I'm not English, so don't go wreck on the way I write ;)
Pss: I'm a 2nd year Electrical Engineering (bachelor) student and I wrote this to the best of my abilities, there may be errors :S

[Edited on 06.12.2012 9:51 AM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 9:45 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: HipiO7
I´d say it would take it´s shields down, and if not, it would do massive damage to the ship itself because of the transfer of force from the round.

To completely leave the ship inoperable, I´d say 2 shots max.


To clear this up for my own sake. You are saying firing a super mac at ANYTHING will result in the ship being destroyed?

So if I fired a super MAC at a forerunner ship (or the keyships from halo 2/3), and it's shields (being so much more advanced) weren't taken down in a single hit from the blast, the ship itself would take massive damage?

That is what I'm not understanding. For this concept to apply to Covie ship shields, it'd apply to everything. and I just can't grasp this idea of "Ship gets hit, shields HOLD and are still up, ship explodes."


Although it has already been cleared in the following pages, it must say that there is a considerable difference between Covenant shield tech and Forerunner shield tech. This applies also to the armor each type of vessel had.

  • 06.12.2012 12:26 PM PDT
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Depends on the hit. Super MACs have been known to penetrate the shields(due to kinetic energy), impact and tear through the hull of a ship, and even hit another ship behind it.

If they aimed the MAC cannon at a vital part of the ship, the Super Carrier is toast!

  • 06.12.2012 12:52 PM PDT
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o hai thr


Posted by: tjal

2. the shield is powered by something, which in turn allows the shield to deflect a percentage of the power generated (there is always loss in power). However, power: j/s and kinetic energy is simply joule, so I would not really know how much energy it can actually reflect. It could store energy, this way a smaller generator can reflect a very powerfull shot once every few minutes?


^this. we do not even know how the shield absorbs energy from incoming projectiles.

you need energy to counter energy when using an energy shield. Therefore, if ANYTHING that does not deplete the shields energy fully hits the shield, the projectile's energy is either deflected elsewhere or negated fully. The ship's hull remains unharmed, just like in-game physics.

  • 06.12.2012 4:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Spurius

Posted by: tjal

2. the shield is powered by something, which in turn allows the shield to deflect a percentage of the power generated (there is always loss in power). However, power: j/s and kinetic energy is simply joule, so I would not really know how much energy it can actually reflect. It could store energy, this way a smaller generator can reflect a very powerfull shot once every few minutes?


^this. we do not even know how the shield absorbs energy from incoming projectiles.

you need energy to counter energy when using an energy shield. Therefore, if ANYTHING that does not deplete the shields energy fully hits the shield, the projectile's energy is either deflected elsewhere or negated fully. The ship's hull remains unharmed, just like in-game physics.


Yes, I know. I was merely wondering in what way the shield converts power feeded to the system by a generator into "shield-energy". My entire point is build around the fact that if the shields energy > kinetic energy (of the slug) --> shields will hold. If kinetic energy > shield energy --> energy passed on to the hull = kinetic energy - shield energy.

If you break the problem down into incoming energy (in the form of a mac-slug) and a reflecting energy (in the form of a shield), the problem is pretty straight forward and the only thing that actually matters is: how strong is the shield? We don't know. The shields might hold or they might not...

My personal opinion: if the slug hit perfectly, meaning: a 90 degree angle onto the shield, the shields would probably fail and result in minor damage to the ship. The way supercruisers are build it'll still be for 90% operationable.
However, any skilled shipmaster would see the slug coming (it's not that fast) and adjust the ships position, therefor decreasing the angle of the impact, resulting in only 25-50% of the impact is transferred to the shield.

  • 06.12.2012 6:39 PM PDT

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Hear the word of Pharaoh. Build unto me a statue of ridiculous proportion. One billion cubits in height......that I might be remembered for all eternity!

And be quick about it!

Although it was a strange design choice that the Covenant Super Carrier looks identical to the Assault Carrier only 10 times bigger...

Posted by: Sigma617
As far as I'm concerned, if you are in the sights of a hostile Super MAC you are dead. No exceptions. The energy released is absolutely colossal. Size will not save you.

I don't think that a Super MAC could destroy a Forerunner ship, or High Charity for that matter.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 8:06 PM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 7:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: AmiableWolf

Posted by: Quantam
People don't understand how ballistics work, do they?

Sabot rounds in tanks are very thin, they result in small holes through tanks, with no explosive charge.

However, if they penetrate,the tank blows up.



What are you on about?

When sabot rounds enter a tank fragments of metal fly off in all directions, but these shards kill people rather than blow stuff up.

A mac round is a 3000 ton tungsten slug. If the slug is harder/tougher than the hull, then it should not break into pieces but go straight through

The shards blow up tanks, search it up.

Also, a MAC round would probably vaporize the ship.

There is way too much energy on that thing. Just like how the magazine explodes, major structural damage would occur, result in the instant destruction and annihilation of the ship's engines.

  • 06.12.2012 9:16 PM PDT

no

  • 06.12.2012 9:32 PM PDT


Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: HipiO7
I´d say it would take it´s shields down, and if not, it would do massive damage to the ship itself because of the transfer of force from the round.

To completely leave the ship inoperable, I´d say 2 shots max.


To clear this up for my own sake. You are saying firing a super mac at ANYTHING will result in the ship being destroyed?

So if I fired a super MAC at a forerunner ship (or the keyships from halo 2/3), and it's shields (being so much more advanced) weren't taken down in a single hit from the blast, the ship itself would take massive damage?

That is what I'm not understanding. For this concept to apply to Covie ship shields, it'd apply to everything. and I just can't grasp this idea of "Ship gets hit, shields HOLD and are still up, ship explodes."


Although it has already been cleared in the following pages, it must say that there is a considerable difference between Covenant shield tech and Forerunner shield tech. This applies also to the armor each type of vessel had.


But still, there is nothing I see that says this 'transfer of energy' only destroys covenant ships and does nothing against Forerunner ships. Or other types of vessels.

  • 06.12.2012 10:08 PM PDT

How do shields work? What are shields? How do they do what they do? And what exactly do they do?

If we don't know all these things, this discussion is nonsensical.

[Edited on 06.13.2012 10:50 AM PDT]

  • 06.13.2012 10:49 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: HipiO7
I´d say it would take it´s shields down, and if not, it would do massive damage to the ship itself because of the transfer of force from the round.

To completely leave the ship inoperable, I´d say 2 shots max.


To clear this up for my own sake. You are saying firing a super mac at ANYTHING will result in the ship being destroyed?

So if I fired a super MAC at a forerunner ship (or the keyships from halo 2/3), and it's shields (being so much more advanced) weren't taken down in a single hit from the blast, the ship itself would take massive damage?

That is what I'm not understanding. For this concept to apply to Covie ship shields, it'd apply to everything. and I just can't grasp this idea of "Ship gets hit, shields HOLD and are still up, ship explodes."


Although it has already been cleared in the following pages, it must say that there is a considerable difference between Covenant shield tech and Forerunner shield tech. This applies also to the armor each type of vessel had.


But still, there is nothing I see that says this 'transfer of energy' only destroys covenant ships and does nothing against Forerunner ships. Or other types of vessels.


I´m not saying it would destroy the ship straight out from pure energy transfer from the hit, but it would sustain substantial damage that´s for sure. For the killing it, it needs to penetrate the shields and thus the vessel itself.

  • 06.13.2012 12:40 PM PDT

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Posted by: realdomdom
How do shields work? What are shields? How do they do what they do? And what exactly do they do?

If we don't know all these things, this discussion is nonsensical.

I don't think we need to know the answer to these. What I am thinking is that the momentum has got to go somewhere (As it is always conserved), and the only place is into the shield, and like any field, the generator of the shield will also absorb that momentum. Given the massive inertia of the ship, the shield generators would likely give way before the ship begins to move a significant amount.

Unless of course the shields can just make momentum disappear, in which case half of physics as we know it walks out the door right now.

  • 06.13.2012 12:50 PM PDT

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