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Subject: The Precursors are irrefutably evil

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Last week I engaged in two conversations that touched on the Precursors. Now I'm sure we're all quite familiar with the Precursors at this point. Now I believe, as the title states, that the Precursors are an evil group of beings. One conversation gave me the viewpoint that the Precursors are "victims" in a sense and the other stated that the Precursors are simply seekers of justice and are generally good nature beings.

Frankly, both are farfetched to me for one simple reason: The Flood.

Now I am not going to approach this from the obvious route, ie the Flood being an all consuming parasite meant to judge races. No, I'm going after the idea that the Flood supposedly offers, a world free of strife and malevolence replaced with one of unity and freedom. Now I've argued the Devils' Advocate for the Flood before, but I'm noticed a glaring issue with that promise.

How can their be unity, equality and freedom when even absorbed into the Flood, you are still being ruled? The Flood requires a Gravemind in order to become more intelligent, without it the Flood are little more than mindless drones. Even further than the Gravemind are the Precursors themselves. Throughout their history they have sought to control and have deleted races they've created for not being able to inherit their Mantle. Besides the Timeless One, does anyone honestly believe the entirety of the Precursors who still survive would assimilate into the Flood? Doing so would not allow them to keep their power.

Bringing in a separate theory from Ajw34307 regarding the nature of the Gravemind, one stating the Gravemind is an entity fully conscious, perhaps existing in slipspace, that can manifest itself and oversee the Precursors tests whenever a Gravemind is created. The Precursors could simply use the Gravemind as a puppet and infect every sentient being in the galaxy and continue to rule from an unknown location.

To me the best natural comparison to this is an ant colony. As a whole, the other ants are equal and work together. Yet they are still ruled by a queen and are slaves to a hive mind. A more human comparison would be to that of Communism. The promise of communism is equality and unity, yet we know that has never been the case. Each time communism has gotten to the dictatorial stage, one meant as a temporary position, it stays that way. Even though the people might believe they are free, they are still being controlled.

Really, there is the inherent evil of the Precursors, they promise freedom with the Flood, yet simply wish to continue to rule as they had been eons before. They tyrants, simple as that.

Agree? Disagree?

  • 06.10.2012 7:10 PM PDT
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I never really liked that the Flood were created by the Precursors. But on topic, I view the Precursors as being misguided with the directions they took.

  • 06.10.2012 7:37 PM PDT
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(To discuss Halo 4.)

I see the Forerunners as the starting enemy in Halo 4, and then the all shocking reveal of the Precursors whether it be in Halo 4 or 5 and 6.

This eventually results in all the races combining to take on the Precursors; to fight a common enemy.

That is Halo's central theme.

[Edited on 06.10.2012 10:28 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2012 10:27 PM PDT

Why are you here?

This might be a little off topic, but how did the Forerunners manage to fight off these 'god-like' beings? If Precursors neared transsentient power, they should have just dominated them. Always been a little confusing to me.


OT: I agree. They're controlling bastards.

  • 06.10.2012 10:35 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: PISTOLSQUIRREL
This might be a little off topic, but how did the Forerunners manage to fight off these 'god-like' beings? If Precursors neared transsentient power, they should have just dominated them. Always been a little confusing to me.


OT: I agree. They're controlling bastards.


Neural weapons, their only weakness.

  • 06.10.2012 10:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Really, there is the inherent evil of the Precursors, they promise freedom with the Flood, yet simply wish to continue to rule as they had been eons before. They tyrants, simple as that.

Agree? Disagree?
Well it unmistakably matches gods in religion. They promise salvation but in return command submission.

  • 06.10.2012 11:10 PM PDT

Oddly, this is familiar to you, as if it were from an old dream, but you can't exactly remember...

Precursors used to be revered for their superior wisdom and intellect.
It seems this fairy tale really is long gone now...

Also it used to be that the Parasite's origin was thought to be extra-galactical.

Please, do not forget this...

[Edited on 06.11.2012 6:23 AM PDT]

  • 06.11.2012 6:21 AM PDT

Why are you here?


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: PISTOLSQUIRREL
This might be a little off topic, but how did the Forerunners manage to fight off these 'god-like' beings? If Precursors neared transsentient power, they should have just dominated them. Always been a little confusing to me.


OT: I agree. They're controlling bastards.


Neural weapons, their only weakness.



Oh... Is there anything we know about these?

  • 06.11.2012 3:39 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: PISTOLSQUIRREL

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: PISTOLSQUIRREL
This might be a little off topic, but how did the Forerunners manage to fight off these 'god-like' beings? If Precursors neared transsentient power, they should have just dominated them. Always been a little confusing to me.


OT: I agree. They're controlling bastards.


Neural weapons, their only weakness.



Oh... Is there anything we know about these?

Only that the Halos are an example of them.

  • 06.11.2012 4:20 PM PDT

Are the Precursors or the Flood Gravemind some form of antimatter organism or something? Or extra-dimensional?

  • 06.11.2012 5:29 PM PDT

yas334229812

Tell me if you become one with the gravemind is not democracy deciding the direction the flood takes. Your vote counts as your mind is part of it. So all in all, the minds of the flood could be influenced by the culture it absorbs.

Also if it has such a great mind, most people lose their belief of fighting against it and become one with it, and learn to live a life for the greater good of their species. Which is by self sacrifice. They all know what is needed to keep themselves alive and so follow the path the the collective hive mind has choosen.

  • 06.11.2012 5:46 PM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: PISTOLSQUIRREL
This might be a little off topic, but how did the Forerunners manage to fight off these 'god-like' beings? If Precursors neared transsentient power, they should have just dominated them. Always been a little confusing to me.


OT: I agree. They're controlling bastards.


Neural weapons, their only weakness.
\
They did not have it back then.

Plus there are hints that there was a civil war among the Precursors.

Also some hints that the ones who created the forerunners and tried to kill them off were the only sect of precursors that were killed off. The rest left, either due to sadness or lost hope, to other galaxies. In reality i think the Timeless One is like the Xenomorph while the engineer is the remaining Precursors who left the galaxy.

  • 06.11.2012 5:49 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: risay_117

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: PISTOLSQUIRREL
This might be a little off topic, but how did the Forerunners manage to fight off these 'god-like' beings? If Precursors neared transsentient power, they should have just dominated them. Always been a little confusing to me.


OT: I agree. They're controlling bastards.


Neural weapons, their only weakness.
\
They did not have it back then.

Plus there are hints that there was a civil war among the Precursors.

Also some hints that the ones who created the forerunners and tried to kill them off were the only sect of precursors that were killed off. The rest left, either due to sadness or lost hope, to other galaxies. In reality i think the Timeless One is like the Xenomorph while the engineer is the remaining Precursors who left the galaxy.


Sources?

  • 06.11.2012 6:06 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: risay_117
Tell me if you become one with the gravemind is not democracy deciding the direction the flood takes.


Who says you are really becoming "one" with the Gravemind and have a say? It appears that it can take over any body, be it Flood are early on in the infection process as with Truth, and use it as a mouth piece. Not only that, but it can use past memories and alter them, like when it made Cortana briefly flesh and blood in the memory of a being being infected by the Flood. The Gravemind simply controls ALL.

Your vote counts as your mind is part of it. So all in all, the minds of the flood could be influenced by the culture it absorbs.

Where does is state that that is truly the case? The Flood have infected countless races and beings and still it continues to simply spread and feed. Your memories become mere playthings, the Gravemind simply doesn't care.

Also if it has such a great mind, most people lose their belief of fighting against it and become one with it, and learn to live a life for the greater good of their species.

So you approve of torture so the Flood can find more ways to infect others. Torture, mind you, that robs you of your very existence and can make you a distant memory, one that can be recalled and feel the terror of being infected for all time, as Cortana learned.

Which is by self sacrifice.

After agonizing torture, that isn't self-sacrifice, that is coercion.

They all know what is needed to keep themselves alive and so follow the path the the collective hive mind has choosen.

Are you truly alive if you can be eternally tortured forever? That's called Hell.

Posted by: risay_117
Plus there are hints that there was a civil war among the Precursors.


Evidence.

Also some hints that the ones who created the forerunners and tried to kill them off were the only sect of precursors that were killed off.

Evidence. While perhaps one race suffered more than others, it's asinine to think only ONE race suffered loses.

The rest left, either due to sadness or lost hope, to other galaxies.

Or to escape being hunted down after attempting to erase another sentient race for not arbitrarily following their arbitrary rules for the Mantle nobody asked for.

In reality i think the Timeless One is like the Xenomorph while the engineer is the remaining Precursors who left the galaxy.

Wait for it...where is your evidence?

  • 06.11.2012 8:44 PM PDT

"Evil" is a very one-dimensional concept. Did you mean maybe controlling or dictating?

  • 06.11.2012 8:48 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Dark Hunter21
"Evil" is a very one-dimensional concept. Did you mean maybe controlling or dictating?


The Flood strips you away of who you are by using antagonizing torture, steal your memories and use your body to further their hunger. What is left of you becomes a memory the Gravemind can call upon at will for any reason, usually in the form of ore torture to break you psychologically.

The Precursors made this and use it, that is evil.

  • 06.11.2012 8:56 PM PDT

Questions lead to learning, learning leads to kowledge, knowledge leads to understanding, understanding leads to peace.



"I would kill to get a killionaire... 10 times... digitally."

From what I can tell, precursors are to forrunners, as forrunners are to humans. So it really could just be a whose side are you on kind of thing.

  • 06.11.2012 10:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: DE4THINC4RN4TE
From what I can tell, precursors are to forrunners, as forrunners are to humans. So it really could just be a whose side are you on kind of thing.


Actually, Humans and Forerunners evolved nearly side beside until their war against each other. To answer the OP, I would have to say the Precursors are not evil. I have not yet read Primordium so I may be unaware of vital information.

From what I have read it seems the Precursors were a fine race and then the Forerunners committed genocide against them. Afterwards, their failsafe/revenge of releasing the flood killed them with the help of the Timeless One who was a prisoner of his own species. I may be completely wrong on the other hand as well.

  • 06.11.2012 10:50 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Terren_117

Posted by: DE4THINC4RN4TE
From what I can tell, precursors are to forrunners, as forrunners are to humans. So it really could just be a whose side are you on kind of thing.


Actually, Humans and Forerunners evolved nearly side beside until their war against each other. To answer the OP, I would have to say the Precursors are not evil. I have not yet read Primordium so I may be unaware of vital information.

From what I have read it seems the Precursors were a fine race and then the Forerunners committed genocide against them. Afterwards, their failsafe/revenge of releasing the flood killed them with the help of the Timeless One who was a prisoner of his own species. I may be completely wrong on the other hand as well.


Precursors were -blam!-s, if a species didn't live up to their standard, they eradicated it. Forerunners found out that Precursors were going to erase them, so they fought back and won, nothing wrong with that.

  • 06.11.2012 11:29 PM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: risay_117
Tell me if you become one with the gravemind is not democracy deciding the direction the flood takes.[/quote]

Who says you are really becoming "one" with the Gravemind and have a say? It appears that it can take over any body, be it Flood are early on in the infection process as with Truth, and use it as a mouth piece. Not only that, but it can use past memories and alter them, like when it made Cortana briefly flesh and blood in the memory of a being being infected by the Flood. The Gravemind simply controls ALL.
[/quote]
But what makes a gravemind first thing first, where did it come from. It came from the hosts it self. Its whole characteristics its understanding comes from those it absorbs. The only time it controls is in the beginning, when you resist it, but once you are part of it, your idea of what is good for it changes.


Your vote counts as your mind is part of it. So all in all, the minds of the flood could be influenced by the culture it absorbs.[/quote]

Where does is state that that is truly the case? The Flood have infected countless races and beings and still it continues to simply spread and feed. Your memories become mere playthings, the Gravemind simply doesn't care.

FIrst thing first you are not who you were anymore. You are now a convert, like converting religion, so you will do whatever is in your power to help it, but as you are now part of the hivemind, you follow what it says. A thousand voices speaking as one, each seeing what is there and what is not, and shall determine how to move forward according to the situations.


Also if it has such a great mind, most people lose their belief of fighting against it and become one with it, and learn to live a life for the greater good of their species.

So you approve of torture so the Flood can find more ways to infect others. Torture, mind you, that robs you of your very existence and can make you a distant memory, one that can be recalled and feel the terror of being infected for all time, as Cortana learned.

Question is, what was the torture. Was it the fear of becomming part of it, was the initiation painfull. Or is it the fear of losing individuality. You are no more fighting for yourself and your selfish desires do not control you but you will do everything for your species. The one you have converted to.


Which is by self sacrifice.

After agonizing torture, that isn't self-sacrifice, that is coercion.

Is it or are you now just a convert. People will say when one switches side he/she was brainwashed yet the defenders say that he/she was converted. For the other it was coercion but for the side the convert is now on it is self sacrifice. Plus they do not live in their body anymore but live in the gravemind in eternal bliss, singing the tune of the gravemind. Their body was just a host for their thought process.


They all know what is needed to keep themselves alive and so follow the path the the collective hive mind has choosen.

Are you truly alive if you can be eternally tortured forever? That's called Hell.

First thing first what is alive, and are they being tortured forever. That is what is the question. Do they when they join the song, become part of the band, and sing joyfully, in bliss. Is the torture still existing or does it disappear after sometime.


Posted by: risay_117
Plus there are hints that there was a civil war among the Precursors.


Evidence.

Cannot remember where have to read the book again, but i remember that to some the TO was the last of its kind of precursors. Also how the precursors were defeated looks impossible if their structures were indestructable.
Also the forerunners did not have the halos then, and even if they used the weapons of the precursors there would have been failsafe. Only solution is that someone intervened.


Also some hints that the ones who created the forerunners and tried to kill them off were the only sect of precursors that were killed off.

Evidence. While perhaps one race suffered more than others, it's asinine to think only ONE race suffered loses.



The rest left, either due to sadness or lost hope, to other galaxies.

Or to escape being hunted down after attempting to erase another sentient race for not arbitrarily following their arbitrary rules for the Mantle nobody asked for.

Could they have not returned later with a military might to purify them.


In reality i think the Timeless One is like the Xenomorph while the engineer is the remaining Precursors who left the galaxy.

Wait for it...where is your evidence?


Because for me its mainly the question of what the precursors were. Why would they imprison one of their kind, what did he do to cause this. This one looks to be the creator of the flood. So would that not mean there was a clear disagreement on how to tackle the uprising. One wanted to use the flood, while the others did not like it, and thought it was too evil.

I got to back it up more but i firmly believe the only way the precursors were killed was due to a civil war between two factions of precursors. For me this was due to the fight over how to handle the forerunner rebellion. I believe that one side tried to start the flood, but the others seeing this and in horror tried to stop it. They imprisoned the one surviving but forced to leave due to some drastic problems, before ending interrogation.

Also the idea that the forerunners were made on the looks of precursors yet the one we find looks different.

For me that is interesting, cause could it not mean that the TO tested the flood on itself, and tried to use it to gain knowledge. A weapon to absorb the forerunners, and find out as much as they can by controlling their mind.

The others did not like it, and attacked the group trying to use it. The group that created it quickly hid a small piece of their samples outside of the galaxy. While they were killed off. This war hurt the precursors and after the ones that created the spores were killed and all the labs destroyed they left, noticing the damage their war had created.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 9:01 AM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 9:00 AM PDT

yas334229812

Plus for me the Precusors are not evil but have a philosiphical belief that we do not understand.

Also another question i have is, whether the flood really just torture or is just the initiation scary.

Yet when you at last accept it, does it feel great like the best feeling you have ever had.

  • 06.12.2012 9:04 AM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Terren_117

Posted by: DE4THINC4RN4TE
From what I can tell, precursors are to forrunners, as forrunners are to humans. So it really could just be a whose side are you on kind of thing.


Actually, Humans and Forerunners evolved nearly side beside until their war against each other. To answer the OP, I would have to say the Precursors are not evil. I have not yet read Primordium so I may be unaware of vital information.

From what I have read it seems the Precursors were a fine race and then the Forerunners committed genocide against them. Afterwards, their failsafe/revenge of releasing the flood killed them with the help of the Timeless One who was a prisoner of his own species. I may be completely wrong on the other hand as well.


Precursors were -blam!-s, if a species didn't live up to their standard, they eradicated it. Forerunners found out that Precursors were going to erase them, so they fought back and won, nothing wrong with that.

The question why was it necessary to eradicate them. Coud the species do something horrible later on. Did the precursor face the same pain before.

Do not think of it like that think of it as sacrifice for the greater good.

  • 06.12.2012 9:05 AM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Dark Hunter21
"Evil" is a very one-dimensional concept. Did you mean maybe controlling or dictating?


The Flood strips you away of who you are by using antagonizing torture, steal your memories and use your body to further their hunger. What is left of you becomes a memory the Gravemind can call upon at will for any reason, usually in the form of ore torture to break you psychologically.

The Precursors made this and use it, that is evil.

First thing first, what is the gravemind.

Is it just an entity or is it the creation of its hosts. For me the question really is confusing, caues the gravemind cannot exist without absorbing others. Yet those absorbed feel pain initially. Also later on in some stories they still feel tortured. Or are these people just still fighting it.

  • 06.12.2012 9:07 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: risay_117

But what makes a gravemind first thing first, where did it come from. It came from the hosts it self. Its whole characteristics its understanding comes from those it absorbs. The only time it controls is in the beginning, when you resist it, but once you are part of it, your idea of what is good for it changes.


But do you not see that you have no choice? If you do not want to be infected, it does not matter because you will be. Why SHOULD anyone have to give in to the Flood? Our immune systems fight viruses and bacteria for a reason you know, does that make them bad for resisting?


FIrst thing first you are not who you were anymore. You are now a convert, like converting religion, so you will do whatever is in your power to help it, but as you are now part of the hivemind, you follow what it says. A thousand voices speaking as one, each seeing what is there and what is not, and shall determine how to move forward according to the situations.


But you do not FREELY convert, you are forcibly converted. And what is your reward? Nothingness, eternal nothingness. The Gravemind may have your memories and experiences, but who says you become an active part? I can torture somebody and get information they know and then toss them aside, something we saw happen to Keyes, Regret and many others.


Question is, what was the torture. Was it the fear of becomming part of it, was the initiation painfull. Or is it the fear of losing individuality. You are no more fighting for yourself and your selfish desires do not control you but you will do everything for your species. The one you have converted to.


Why don't we ask Keyes or Cortana?

Keyes was brutally psychologically tortured, physically tortured and his memories were taken from him as he tried to hang on. The Proto-Gravemind even states it just wants "everything" and that all of his emotions and memories are "now ours", not his to share with them, simply theirs.

As for Cortana, even though she was an AI, the Gravemind was able to psychically abuse her and force her to feel being infected as he placed her in the memory of an alien being who was infected.

So yes, it is physical and psychological torture to FORCE you to assimilate.


Is it or are you now just a convert. People will say when one switches side he/she was brainwashed yet the defenders say that he/she was converted. For the other it was coercion but for the side the convert is now on it is self sacrifice. Plus they do not live in their body anymore but live in the gravemind in eternal bliss, singing the tune of the gravemind. Their body was just a host for their thought process.


Where has it been stated you live in eternal bliss with the Gravemind? And even if you do, we know it can end at any moment when it forces you to relive being infected. My point above still stands.



First thing first what is alive, and are they being tortured forever. That is what is the question. Do they when they join the song, become part of the band, and sing joyfully, in bliss. Is the torture still existing or does it disappear after sometime.


After seeing the memory of an alien being being infected once more simply to get information out of Cortana, I don't see the bliss in that.


Cannot remember where have to read the book again, but i remember that to some the TO was the last of its kind of precursors. Also how the precursors were defeated looks impossible if their structures were indestructable.


The Halos were able to destroy their structures. The Precursors may be near-gods, but they were still flesh and blood and easily killable. The mythical Organon may he an answer too.

Also the forerunners did not have the halos then, and even if they used the weapons of the precursors there would have been failsafe. Only solution is that someone intervened.

Why?


Could they have not returned later with a military might to purify them.


Why when the Flood presents an option just as effective as a military?


Because for me its mainly the question of what the precursors were. Why would they imprison one of their kind, what did he do to cause this. This one looks to be the creator of the flood. So would that not mean there was a clear disagreement on how to tackle the uprising. One wanted to use the flood, while the others did not like it, and thought it was too evil.


Or the Timeless One was placed there to put their plans in motion. After all, it tells humans how to "cure" the Flood and then reveals that there is no immunity. He says humans will be tested next and so humans are preserved and Forerunners are finally taken out of the picture. If it requires the TO's sacrifice, so be it, he mentions a "child" rising from his proverbial ashes.

I got to back it up more but i firmly believe the only way the precursors were killed was due to a civil war between two factions of precursors. For me this was due to the fight over how to handle the forerunner rebellion. I believe that one side tried to start the flood, but the others seeing this and in horror tried to stop it. They imprisoned the one surviving but forced to leave due to some drastic problems, before ending interrogation.

Yes, you need to back it up because nothing supports that in the book aside your own speculation.

Also the idea that the forerunners were made on the looks of precursors yet the one we find looks different.

The Precursors made every race in the galaxy and everyone looks evil. They don't have to make anyone in their exact image.

For me that is interesting, cause could it not mean that the TO tested the flood on itself, and tried to use it to gain knowledge. A weapon to absorb the forerunners, and find out as much as they can by controlling their mind.

Or it used the Flood to further the Precursors overall plans, to guide it and control it.

The others did not like it, and attacked the group trying to use it. The group that created it quickly hid a small piece of their samples outside of the galaxy. While they were killed off. This war hurt the precursors and after the ones that created the spores were killed and all the labs destroyed they left, noticing the damage their war had created.

Provide evidence.

  • 06.12.2012 9:26 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: risay_117
The question why was it necessary to eradicate them. Coud the species do something horrible later on. Did the precursor face the same pain before.

Do not think of it like that think of it as sacrifice for the greater good.


The Precursors did this song and dance countless times and it was always the same result, if they KNEW the race would do something bad, why did they make them that way or why did they not learn from their past mistakes?

  • 06.12.2012 9:27 AM PDT

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