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Subject: The Precursors are irrefutably evil

The "evil" Precursors (since there appears to be those who didn't assimilate; possible allies?) have the best intentions, just not necessarily the best methods.

And ruling who, exactly? As far as anyone knows, they only created and destroyed their own creations, but left everything else to run its own course. They were trying to build the perfect inheritors, and only they were subject to destruction if they were impure. Consider the longterm ramifications of an impure inheritor. The Forerunners were imperfect, and ruled peacefully with an iron fist. Whole civilizations were eradicated by their imperfect rule.

And the Precursors were trying to stop that by destroying them. They could be said to be evil only in that they don't give second chances at redemption, which is probably what the story of the Forerunners will be all about in the trilogy, but otherwise, they're trying to protect the many by destroying the imperfect few.

They don't strike me as rulers, they're just trying to create the perfect guardians. Whatever state they're in, being transsentient, they don't seem to be willing to take direct action in the events of the universe, only to nurture it when absolutely necessary. Otherwise they use a proxy race, the inheritors. That can only be achieved by a race as pure as their goals.

But as I said, it seems to me that there might be two factions, the Primordial who believed the Flood is the only way to peace and the Precursors who fled and escaped their destruction. So we'll see.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: risay_117
The question why was it necessary to eradicate them. Coud the species do something horrible later on. Did the precursor face the same pain before.

Do not think of it like that think of it as sacrifice for the greater good.


The Precursors did this song and dance countless times and it was always the same result, if they KNEW the race would do something bad, why did they make them that way or why did they not learn from their past mistakes?


Because constructing an entire perfect alien civilization from scratch is not like pooring the right chemicals into a tube; people are too complicated. They create and then they test over probably thousands of years. If they do not fit the standards, then they are too dangerous to become the inheritors.

Also: Isn't the Gravemind a universal collection of all of the minds it infected, not a standalone entity that controls the individuals?

The Gravemind would be the will of all of them, not the will of one.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 10:12 AM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 10:04 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
The "evil" Precursors (since there appears to be those who didn't assimilate; possible allies?) have the best intentions, just not necessarily the best methods.


I think that is something most of us can agree on, the Flood is a terrible method.

And ruling who, exactly? As far as anyone knows, they only created and destroyed their own creations, but left everything else to run its own course. They were trying to build the perfect inheritors, and only they were subject to destruction if they were impure. Consider the longterm ramifications of an impure inheritor. The Forerunners were imperfect, and ruled peacefully with an iron fist. Whole civilizations were eradicated by their imperfect rule.

Well, if Forerunners and humans are made by the Precursors and both share common traits, same emotions, same viewpoints, then that leads me to believe that the Precursors share those as well. It's one thing to condemn the Forerunners for their ways, and you have to throw humans in there too since they did the same thing as well, but those actions had to come from somewhere, probably the creators.

As for ruling, well, everyone really. The Flood in the Forerunner-Flood War infected anything, Forerunners or not.

And the Precursors were trying to stop that by destroying them. They could be said to be evil only in that they don't give second chances at redemption, which is probably what the story of the Forerunners will be all about in the trilogy, but otherwise, they're trying to protect the many by destroying the imperfect few.

Something they never really seemed to care to fix.

They don't strike me as rulers, they're just trying to create the perfect guardians. Whatever state they're in, being transsentient, they don't seem to be willing to take direct action in the events of the universe, only to nurture it when absolutely necessary. Otherwise they use a proxy race, the inheritors. That can only be achieved by a race as pure as their goals.

But is such a goal of a pure race even possible? You could argue the Flood, but we just established that the Flood are still a brutal, method.

But as I said, it seems to me that there might be two factions, the Primordial who believed the Flood is the only way to peace and the Precursors who fled and escaped their destruction. So we'll see.

I still don't see the evidence for this ""two faction" deal.

  • 06.12.2012 10:10 AM PDT

An entire species is evil?

lol

  • 06.12.2012 10:18 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
An entire species is evil?


Yup.

  • 06.12.2012 10:21 AM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
The "evil" Precursors (since there appears to be those who didn't assimilate; possible allies?) have the best intentions, just not necessarily the best methods.


I think that is something most of us can agree on, the Flood is a terrible method.

And ruling who, exactly? As far as anyone knows, they only created and destroyed their own creations, but left everything else to run its own course. They were trying to build the perfect inheritors, and only they were subject to destruction if they were impure. Consider the longterm ramifications of an impure inheritor. The Forerunners were imperfect, and ruled peacefully with an iron fist. Whole civilizations were eradicated by their imperfect rule.

Well, if Forerunners and humans are made by the Precursors and both share common traits, same emotions, same viewpoints, then that leads me to believe that the Precursors share those as well. It's one thing to condemn the Forerunners for their ways, and you have to throw humans in there too since they did the same thing as well, but those actions had to come from somewhere, probably the creators.

As for ruling, well, everyone really. The Flood in the Forerunner-Flood War infected anything, Forerunners or not.

We can't bother trying to figure out how the Precursors think until there is a one on one scene with one where the conversation doesn't just go off into vague hints. They are by definition beyond us, as is their capabilities. The idea of creating a "perfect" race could be seen as a test in its self; that the race has to achieve perfection, but to do that they have to be capable of achieving it. Maybe actually building one right from the get go is impossible, but giving them the ability to achieve perfection through their own devices is. So they test them in various ways. They make sacrifices by the billions to test them, full on genocide in fact, but keep in mind that this is just one generation, in one galaxy at one point in time in a universe of infinite time and infinite galaxies and infinite generations to come after. The collateral damage might not seem like that big of a deal to gods who can understand just what is at stake long term.

What is one generation of chaos to billions of potential generations of order?


And the Precursors were trying to stop that by destroying them. They could be said to be evil only in that they don't give second chances at redemption, which is probably what the story of the Forerunners will be all about in the trilogy, but otherwise, they're trying to protect the many by destroying the imperfect few.

Something they never really seemed to care to fix.

Fixing the imperfections? If what I said above is true, that's impossible. They need to achieve the perfection themselves; they either have that capability, or they do not. The ones that do not can never be trusted with the Mantle. They've been given the capacity to build monumental technology by the Precursors and with that technology, the weapons to rule as the Forerunners did. They could not be trusted to exist.

They don't strike me as rulers, they're just trying to create the perfect guardians. Whatever state they're in, being transsentient, they don't seem to be willing to take direct action in the events of the universe, only to nurture it when absolutely necessary. Otherwise they use a proxy race, the inheritors. That can only be achieved by a race as pure as their goals.

But is such a goal of a pure race even possible? You could argue the Flood, but we just established that the Flood are still a brutal, method.

That is going to be the question in the Reclaimer Trilogy for sure; we know that humanity passed the test with the Flood the first time around. Now, whatever they do next may decide if we are that perfect race. The flaws with humanity and the flaws with the Forerunners are the same, but the difference between the two of us is that the Forerunners couldn't overcome their flaws. They in fact didn't recognize them until it was too late, even when Didact was warning everyone.

Ancient Man we know united against the Flood threat and willingly sacrificed two thirds of their entire population, as well as their civilization to defeat the Flood. Whether the cure worked or not--as we know it didn't--isn't the point. The point was the sacrifices we took in an attempt to beat them. The Forerunners, we know, broke out into civil unrest as well as wars amongst themselves because they couldn't unite, which only further eroded their civilization.

If the Flood is perfect because of the unity they represent, then by example mankind represents the Flood's benevolent opposite: Willingly united rather than being forced too. Meaning that the Precursors are correct in that only unity can bring peace, but, and this leads into my two factions theory, not all of them agree (ironic, now that I think about it).
The Primordial says that those who created the Forerunners fled, as not all were killed. It seems to me that the three races--Forerunners, Mankind, and the Flood--were created by seperate parties. We know the Primordial says that there were many "kinds" of Precursor, and that the humans and 'Runners were created in their image (according to the 'Runners), despite Primordial looking nothing like us.

Then this to me suggests two opposing ideals. One, the Primordial, who has little faith in complex, individualistic minded organisms such as mankind in ever being unified to nurture the universe, and so created the forceful method, the single minded Flood. The other party, the ones who fled, who created the Forerunners (and humanity, probably, considering our impossible likeness) who see potential in individuals also being unified.

Nothing but guess work of course, and a lot of it is likely wrong (indeed with things I may have not considered, but cant think of), but as I said:


We'll see.

  • 06.12.2012 10:43 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

I can see some merit in that, but if that is the case, why would these good Precursors wait so long before acting? It reminds me of the German citizens saying they were lied to about the Holocaust, something I have a hard time believing.

I'll be back later.

  • 06.12.2012 10:53 AM PDT

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Wolverfrog
An entire species is evil?


Yup.

Unlikely. This is like saying humanity is evil. Which obviously it is not. And the meaning of good and evil crumbles entirely when personal and racial perspective is brought into the fray.

  • 06.12.2012 10:54 AM PDT

yas334229812

The real question is that the forerunners were their creation, and they had to take responsiblity.

The maker has the right to destroy his or her creation is that right.

If they were then it is true.

As far as i am concerned there is so much we do not know about the Precursors. Also most of what i said was opinions.

Another thing, for me the biggest question is what happened to the precursors. How did a race defeat them. Was there a mistake or something. Why was the flood created. From what we know it could have been originally created for a different reason. Plus it was if for vengence created during the first war, between the both races.

Plus remember as time passes on the story changes.

For me the Precursors that made the Flood are not an evil. But have a philosiphical belief that is the basis as to why they created it. It could have been a test to see if they are ready to uphold the mantle. Maybe teach them the lesson and hope that they learn something. A change of mind. But that is another theory with no basis.

  • 06.12.2012 11:05 AM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I can see some merit in that, but if that is the case, why would these good Precursors wait so long before acting? It reminds me of the German citizens saying they were lied to about the Holocaust, something I have a hard time believing.

I'll be back later.


The same could be said of the bad Precursors; we haven't seen them around either, only their creations. Just as we've only seen the good Precursors' creation, us and the Runners, around. What happened to them, or what is happening to them, we've yet to find out so we can't really say. For all we know they could be fighting a war in another dimension, each side trying to get to the our side.

  • 06.12.2012 11:08 AM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I can see some merit in that, but if that is the case, why would these good Precursors wait so long before acting? It reminds me of the German citizens saying they were lied to about the Holocaust, something I have a hard time believing.

I'll be back later.


The same could be said of the bad Precursors; we haven't seen them around either, only their creations. Just as we've only seen the good Precursors' creation, us and the Runners, around. What happened to them, or what is happening to them, we've yet to find out so we can't really say. For all we know they could be fighting a war in another dimension, each side trying to get to the our side.

The question is are they evil or are they just philosiphically believe a different idea. Were those who made the flood, tired of trying many species, and decided the flood was the best idea. The question also comes as to why the flood only infected forerunners before but now infect all species.

  • 06.12.2012 11:20 AM PDT

About me: I am a vicious wolf of a man.

But really am sweet at heart. =)

Spoiler: the Precursors are actually Reapers.

  • 06.12.2012 11:22 AM PDT


Posted by: risay_117

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I can see some merit in that, but if that is the case, why would these good Precursors wait so long before acting? It reminds me of the German citizens saying they were lied to about the Holocaust, something I have a hard time believing.

I'll be back later.


The same could be said of the bad Precursors; we haven't seen them around either, only their creations. Just as we've only seen the good Precursors' creation, us and the Runners, around. What happened to them, or what is happening to them, we've yet to find out so we can't really say. For all we know they could be fighting a war in another dimension, each side trying to get to the our side.

The question is are they evil or are they just philosiphically believe a different idea. Were those who made the flood, tired of trying many species, and decided the flood was the best idea. The question also comes as to why the flood only infected forerunners before but now infect all species.


Its not different beliefs so much as it is just a better understanding. If you read my above post, you'll see that from their perspective, one generation's sacrifice is a worthy price for an infinite number of peaceful generations.

Which is why the Flood is unrestrained. No one ever said it only infected Forerunners, its just they were the only ones we've heard about. Riser was a one time anamoly, as far as I can tell. It would have to be a universal threat to test whether or not the inheritors can universally unite everyone against the threat.

I feel those who made the Flood didn't have any faith that an individualistic race like us could at the same time be truly united.

^^Its the other way around, actually.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 12:17 PM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 12:16 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: risay_117
The real question is that the forerunners were their creation, and they had to take responsiblity.

The maker has the right to destroy his or her creation is that right.

If they were then it is true.


So you say we can't call the whole of Precursors as bad, but you say the whole of Forerunners are bad and thus the Precursors have the right to destroy them.

Sounds hypocritical.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 1:01 PM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 1:01 PM PDT

Yes they are, but the gameplay ones aren't as strong as the original ones from the books.

  • 06.12.2012 1:03 PM PDT
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UCLA

Average Joe - IgnitedProphecy

"It's the most fun thing since fun was invented... by the Romans."

I preferred the more mysterious story for the origin of the flood;

They came into our galaxy from parts unknown, a distant galaxy perhaps. It adds to the legend of the flood. It hints at the idea that the flood have consumed countless galaxies before and are sending scouts (i.e. probe droids from The Empire Strikes Back) to consume other galaxies.

Maybe even a bigger idea that all Gravemind are to return once the task is completed to an even larger mass that is the single largest source of cosmic information in the known universe.

The Milky Way is a boring galaxy, our black hole is small. There are 37 super-massive black holes out there that are centered around even greater galaxies. I'd assume (yes I know assumptions are evil) that this "source" has chosen one of the largest as its own hub. This idea would lay the groundwork for the greatest fictional universe of all time. Not to mention the greatest hero. I'm sure precurser technology paired with humans and forerunner can get in between galaxies.


[Edited on 06.12.2012 1:13 PM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 1:11 PM PDT


Posted by: ArrivedLactose
I preferred the more mysterious story for the origin of the flood;

They came into our galaxy from parts unknown, a distant galaxy perhaps. It adds to the legend of the flood. It hints at the idea that the flood have consumed countless galaxies before and are sending scouts (i.e. probe droids from The Empire Strikes Back) to consume other galaxies.




So basically a carbon copy of the Tyranids from WH40K

And yes, Precursor technology was capable of intergalactic travel.

[Edited on 06.12.2012 3:44 PM PDT]

  • 06.12.2012 3:43 PM PDT

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