Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: I don't see the S4's as Spartans.
  • Subject: I don't see the S4's as Spartans.
Subject: I don't see the S4's as Spartans.


Posted by: ajw34307
it just seems so soon to suddenly (not to mention, conveniently) overcome the issues that ORION presented where it was judged that the augmentations are better suited to children.



51 years ago, you mean, when ORION was canned. 51 years ago going to the moon was thought to be impossible. We did it 8 years later.

There's nothing remotely "sudden" about 51 years of scientific development, unrestrained by morals or cost thanks to the limitless resources of the ONI, home to the brightest minds in the galaxy.

  • 06.22.2012 9:53 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Don't do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to paramedics. Trust me, I'm a pilot.


Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: UphillMercury

Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: flamedude
Well it does against the history of Spartans to become a Spartan when you're in your adulthood..... so I agree too. I think it is simply the end product of the Spartan initiative to allow augmentations to be performed on adults but it comes at the expense of expertise, skill and experience. A S-II or S-III would mop the floor with any S-IV, unless 343i introduce some lame new augmentation that simply allows S-IVs to be "even betterer!" than previous Spartans.

That would annoy me.

I really hope that S-IVs are acknowledged as inferior to S-IIs and S-IIIs in some aspects and superior in others, that would make more sense to me.
This.

In the Fall of Reach I think a marine asked John how he could be a Spartan. John said something like "You don't become one, you are chosen".

Now that marines and ODSTs can become them, John will probably think of them the same way as the OP does. People in fancy armour and some augmentations. He'll think their training wasn't enough, or something like that.


....

The S-IVs were chosen. They proved themselves to be the best special forces operatives the UNSC had.
But they were given a choice. The Spartan IIs were not. They were chosen, end of story. Except for Soren.

Anyways Spartan IIs and IIIs were trained from the age of six to be BETTER than even the best special forces. The Spartan IVs trained to be what the Spartans IIs and IIIs were trained to be better than. Sure they got some additional training, but Spartan training is in a league of its own.


Right, so if they got Spartan-equivalent training, augmentations, and MJOLNIR armor, I don't see why you don't consider them to be Spartans. Personally, I think they would be on par with the previous generations.

Considering the fact that adult volunteers were used, there are potentially some S-IVs who have been soldiers, or even involved in special forces, longer than members of Gamma Company have been alive. Additionally, Spartan programs don't happen overnight. Suppose it only took three years, from start to finish, to run the S-IV program (for argument's sake). This includes training, augmentations, and issue of armor. For the S-IIIs, the augmentation procedures occurred at the age of 12. Bearing this in mind, and the fact that the S-IIIs and S-IIs were conscripted (on average) at the age of six, this would mean that, an S-IV would already have half of an S-III's training time in addition to the years of combat experience they already have.

Knowing this, I don't see why they wouldn't be considered Spartans, nor do I see why they wouldn't be equally skilled on the battlefield as any other previous generation of Spartan.

  • 06.22.2012 1:23 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

The greek Spartans were beaten by Athenians who didn't train from childhood, so what's your argument people?

  • 06.22.2012 2:20 PM PDT


Posted by: UphillMercury

Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: UphillMercury

Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: flamedude
Well it does against the history of Spartans to become a Spartan when you're in your adulthood..... so I agree too. I think it is simply the end product of the Spartan initiative to allow augmentations to be performed on adults but it comes at the expense of expertise, skill and experience. A S-II or S-III would mop the floor with any S-IV, unless 343i introduce some lame new augmentation that simply allows S-IVs to be "even betterer!" than previous Spartans.

That would annoy me.

I really hope that S-IVs are acknowledged as inferior to S-IIs and S-IIIs in some aspects and superior in others, that would make more sense to me.
This.

In the Fall of Reach I think a marine asked John how he could be a Spartan. John said something like "You don't become one, you are chosen".

Now that marines and ODSTs can become them, John will probably think of them the same way as the OP does. People in fancy armour and some augmentations. He'll think their training wasn't enough, or something like that.


....

The S-IVs were chosen. They proved themselves to be the best special forces operatives the UNSC had.
But they were given a choice. The Spartan IIs were not. They were chosen, end of story. Except for Soren.

Anyways Spartan IIs and IIIs were trained from the age of six to be BETTER than even the best special forces. The Spartan IVs trained to be what the Spartans IIs and IIIs were trained to be better than. Sure they got some additional training, but Spartan training is in a league of its own.


Right, so if they got Spartan-equivalent training, augmentations, and MJOLNIR armor, I don't see why you don't consider them to be Spartans. Personally, I think they would be on par with the previous generations.

Considering the fact that adult volunteers were used, there are potentially some S-IVs who have been soldiers, or even involved in special forces, longer than members of Gamma Company have been alive. Additionally, Spartan programs don't happen overnight. Suppose it only took three years, from start to finish, to run the S-IV program (for argument's sake). This includes training, augmentations, and issue of armor. For the S-IIIs, the augmentation procedures occurred at the age of 12. Bearing this in mind, and the fact that the S-IIIs and S-IIs were conscripted (on average) at the age of six, this would mean that, an S-IV would already have half of an S-III's training time in addition to the years of combat experience they already have.

Knowing this, I don't see why they wouldn't be considered Spartans, nor do I see why they wouldn't be equally skilled on the battlefield as any other previous generation of Spartan.
The Spartan IV's had more time to train AND get battlefield experience.

However their initial training wasn't designed for them to be a Spartan. The Spartan IIs and IIIs were trained with the idea that they would become Spartans. Sure the Spartan IV's HAD Spartan training, but it wasn't for as long.

Also Spartan IV's despite being soldiers for so long, are still just people with augmentations. I doubt their education was at same level as the Spartan IIs, and probably don't think the same way.

I also don't get why they have to keep saying "lightweight" MJOLNIR armour. Can't they just say the new MJOLNIR is lightweight to being with, and not have to constantly be saying that?

Will they be great soliders? Yeah. But they'll have to prove they are Spartans to me, like every other generation.

  • 06.22.2012 5:11 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
My main issue is that Gamma Company has been completely ignored, IMO they should have killed them off in Glasslands and gone with the Spartan-IVs as a result or not use Spartan-IVs and just have Gamma Company come back.

I find the latter preferable since we're well acquainted with the Spartan-IIIs in the fiction, it just seems so soon to suddenly (not to mention, conveniently) overcome the issues that ORION presented where it was judged that the augmentations are better suited to children.

Hopefully The Thursday War will cover Gamma's fate...


Pretty much agree. They just randomly namedrop gamma company in glasslands "Oh, you'll recover the survivors of Gamma company to bring into the S4 program."

Nothing about WHAT they did, where they went, how many are still left. Just "Bring them back." It's why I said 343 went "f-that" to Spirit of Fire. There are plenty of areas that really need explaining, and 343 has just decided not to even try. (Gamma company being a key example at the moment)

Yeah, we know what the S3's can do, we know at least what their augmentations are. Now Glasslands namedrops S4's with zero explaining of WHAT they are or what they can do. Also halo 4 is introducing a brand new type of MJOLNIR, so we really don't even know if S4's can wear MJOLNIR like Mark V or VI. Likewise, as of Gamma company augmentations (Which was... not that long ago?) we still hadn't heard of ANY sort of advancement in being able to augment adults. Heck, IIRC in the BETA company selections it was still a "If we even go 1% out of the genetic restrictions, failure chance massively increases."


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
There's nothing remotely "sudden" about 51 years of scientific development, unrestrained by morals or cost thanks to the limitless resources of the ONI, home to the brightest minds in the galaxy.


Implying that for 51 years, ONI has done nothing but work on the augmentations. Which I find highly unlikely. Seeing as Spartan 3 augmentations merely removed death factor and allowed the restrictions to be expanded slightly... I'm not seeing the sudden leap from that (while still REQUIRING children) to "Any old adult can get augmentations!"

And seeing as ONI thinks it's the best idea ever to lock up the smartest person concerning forerunner tech and not have her included in that area of research, as well as wasting resources stalking her even while trapped in Onyx... the other minds must not be too bright. Also, ONI isn't limitless. Once the UNSC runs out, they run out. Ugh. More and more ONI is described as Cerberus. That's not good.

  • 06.22.2012 9:42 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
The greek Spartans were beaten by Athenians who didn't train from childhood, so what's your argument people?


Then Spartan-IVs should be called Athenians-I lol

  • 06.22.2012 11:21 PM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
Praisers are going to praise.

The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

@ Cmdr DaeFaron's post above: Hear, hear! 343i have ignored far too many things, just for the sake of making up a bunch o new cool stuff, even though the universe already had components that could make the story work.
Posted by: CoolCJ24

Posted by: flamedude
Well it does against the history of Spartans to become a Spartan when you're in your adulthood..... so I agree too. I think it is simply the end product of the Spartan initiative to allow augmentations to be performed on adults but it comes at the expense of expertise, skill and experience. A S-II or S-III would mop the floor with any S-IV, unless 343i introduce some lame new augmentation that simply allows S-IVs to be "even betterer!" than previous Spartans.

That would annoy me.

I really hope that S-IVs are acknowledged as inferior to S-IIs and S-IIIs in some aspects and superior in others, that would make more sense to me.

You can't use the years of experience thing to support SPARTAN-IIs because the S-IVs have that themselves - and the S-IVs have spent years prior fighting the Covenant without MJOLNIR or augmentations.
But S-IIs and S-IIIs have been trained since childhood, they don't know anything else than war. S-IVs might, since they probably first joined when they came of recruiting age (18?).

Posted by: Luffy_299

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
The greek Spartans were beaten by Athenians who didn't train from childhood, so what's your argument people?


Then Spartan-IVs should be called Athenians-I lol

Although not competely true*, this!

*The Athenians did not win one on one, they won because of other surrounding factors.

[Edited on 06.23.2012 5:39 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2012 5:29 AM PDT

The real Janaka, yep. Key things like...

Gamma Company, Jun, Spirit of Fire, Grey team, Black team, Buck's ODST squad (though that MIGHT be involved in Halo 4/Thursday war. maybe), the growing movement of Elites that respect humans...


As for S4's skill levels. I might be misreading what people are saying as "They are pathetic anyway" as opposed to "They aren't awesome, compared to S2's or S3's." If so, sorry.

  • 06.23.2012 7:19 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Jun


I'm absolutely fine with them ignoring him, Jun had absolutely no impact on the story whatsoever but other things like SoF's fate, Grey Team, Buck's ODST squad (etc) should be covered.

  • 06.23.2012 7:51 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Jun


I'm absolutely fine with them ignoring him, Jun had absolutely no impact on the story whatsoever but other things like SoF's fate, Grey Team, Buck's ODST squad (etc) should be covered.


I merely was listing him because they'd outright stated he was an aspect they were going to utterly ignore in terms of finalizing.

  • 06.23.2012 8:32 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Don't do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to paramedics. Trust me, I'm a pilot.


Posted by: Spartan1995324
The Spartan IV's had more time to train AND get battlefield experience.

However their initial training wasn't designed for them to be a Spartan. The Spartan IIs and IIIs were trained with the idea that they would become Spartans. Sure the Spartan IV's HAD Spartan training, but it wasn't for as long.

Also Spartan IV's despite being soldiers for so long, are still just people with augmentations. I doubt their education was at same level as the Spartan IIs, and probably don't think the same way.

I also don't get why they have to keep saying "lightweight" MJOLNIR armour. Can't they just say the new MJOLNIR is lightweight to being with, and not have to constantly be saying that?

Will they be great soliders? Yeah. But they'll have to prove they are Spartans to me, like every other generation.



The reason why previous generations of Spartans were trained so rigorously is because they were "starting from scratch," so to speak. I don't know about you, but I personally do not know any six-year-old who can effectively aim, shoot, and reload a weapon with reasonable precision. I would assume, however, that an elite special forces operative could aim, shoot, reload, clean, and assemble his or her weapon with a high amount of precision. Additionally, they would already know battlefield tactics that would have to have been taught to previous generations of Spartans.

Granted, as you said, some may not be nearly as educated as a Spartan. However, there are plenty of uneducated people today, and in the past, that are, or have been, very good at what they do or did. I'm not saying that education should be ignored entirely; I'm saying that, despite the individual's lack of education, he or she may be just as capable on the battlefield, practically-speaking, as any other previous generation of Spartan.

Furthermore, I don't think they over-emphasize the fact that it's lighter; I think 343i is just trying to get the point across that the S-IVs are using the second generation of MJOLNIR. I think they are referring to the fact that perhaps a lighter, stronger alloy is in use instead of the traditional titanium. I thought of, perhaps, some sort of alloy like kryron.

Finally, as you said in your opening sentence, the S-IVs had more time to train and battlefield experience. While the battlefield experience is true, because, as I said before, there are potentially some S-IVs who have been soldiers longer than the S-IIIs of Gamma Company have been alive. As for more time to train, that's a pretty general statement. We know for a fact how long the S-IIs and S-IIIs trained for. The details for the S-IV training time are unknown. If I recall correctly, we only know (so far) that an unknown number of S-IVs were active by 2553 and stationed on board the UNSC Infinity. Therefore, no one can really say for certain just how long the training program took, as no details of its' activation are available.

[Edited on 06.23.2012 8:39 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2012 8:38 AM PDT

I don't think he'll see them as insults to the Spartan title, I just don't think he'll see them as Spartan II's, even if their augmentations come close.
I think he'll treat them as any other non-spartan II squad-mate, he won't verbally lead them as much as he did the spartan II's, if at all, but putting more Spartans alongside Chief speaks for itself in terms of effectiveness.

  • 06.23.2012 8:47 AM PDT


Posted by: Flaming glacier
I don't think he'll see them as insults to the Spartan title, I just don't think he'll see them as Spartan II's, even if their augmentations come close.
I think he'll treat them as any other non-spartan II squad-mate, he won't verbally lead them as much as he did the spartan II's, if at all, but putting more Spartans alongside Chief speaks for itself in terms of effectiveness.


Why would he treat them as "non-spartans"? The other Spartan II's treated the S3's as fellow Spartans.


Also, concerning MJOLNIR GEN2...

It's freaking POWER ARMOR. Lightweight doesn't matter as the armor supports it's own weight. Literally thinking about it, "Lightweight MJOLNIR" = "Lightweight power armor", which, IMO, means "Weak power armor/lesser power armor."

  • 06.23.2012 8:57 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.

I admit, I sit a little iffish on Spartan IVs. They just *poofed* in right after the war as if the war never took any tole on the UNSC.

  • 06.23.2012 9:18 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Sandtrap
Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.


Agreed. When I first read Ghosts of Onyx, the S-IIIs became one of my favourite parts of the fiction but I feel that their story is tainted by [what can laughably be called] 'characters' like Noble Team and the Headhunters. Half of them had absolutely no impact on [what can laughably be called] the 'plot' of Reach and this really wasn't their story to tell, Reach was very much regarded as the fall of the Spartan-IIs yet we're never shown that.

I personally preferred it where all the S-IIIs (minus Tom and Lucy) were KIA, killed en masse by impossible odds brought about by endless waves of Covenant yet still they succeeded in their mission.

  • 06.23.2012 9:26 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Sandtrap
Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.


Agreed. When I first read Ghosts of Onyx, the S-IIIs became one of my favourite parts of the fiction but I feel that their story is tainted by [what can laughably be called] 'characters' like Noble Team and the Headhunters. Half of them had absolutely no impact on [what can laughably be called] the 'plot' of Reach and this really wasn't their story to tell, Reach was very much regarded as the fall of the Spartan-IIs yet we're never shown that.

I personally preferred it where all the S-IIIs (minus Tom and Lucy) were KIA, killed en masse by impossible odds brought about by endless waves of Covenant yet still they succeeded in their mission.


I didn't mind the Headhunters. They fit more along with what I've come to expect of S-IIIs. But, I did prefer that the majority of the first batch of S-IIIs were wiped out save for two.

  • 06.23.2012 9:38 AM PDT


Posted by: Sandtrap
Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.

I admit, I sit a little iffish on Spartan IVs. They just *poofed* in right after the war as if the war never took any tole on the UNSC.


On your part. Noble Team however, didn't affect my view. Made sense honestly, with the slowly dwindling and limited numbers of S2's, they'd grab some S3's to operate on the same level, keep up the Appearance that the Spartans were still an unstoppable force.

However, I agree about S4's. Too much of Glasslands introductions spawn the thoughts of "Didn't Earth, and by extension, the entire Sol system get it's ass handed to them? As in, it's royally ruined and has to be rebuilt before anything can be truly done?" Yet we have Infinity, Spartan IV's, private companies building Mark VII AND this GEN2 armor...

[Edited on 06.23.2012 10:07 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2012 10:07 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: ajw34307
My main issue is that Gamma Company has been completely ignored, IMO they should have killed them off in Glasslands and gone with the Spartan-IVs as a result or not use Spartan-IVs and just have Gamma Company come back.

I find the latter preferable since we're well acquainted with the Spartan-IIIs in the fiction, it just seems so soon to suddenly (not to mention, conveniently) overcome the issues that ORION presented where it was judged that the augmentations are better suited to children.

Hopefully The Thursday War will cover Gamma's fate...


Pretty much agree. They just randomly namedrop gamma company in glasslands "Oh, you'll recover the survivors of Gamma company to bring into the S4 program."

Nothing about WHAT they did, where they went, how many are still left. Just "Bring them back." It's why I said 343 went "f-that" to Spirit of Fire. There are plenty of areas that really need explaining, and 343 has just decided not to even try. (Gamma company being a key example at the moment)

Yeah, we know what the S3's can do, we know at least what their augmentations are. Now Glasslands namedrops S4's with zero explaining of WHAT they are or what they can do. Also halo 4 is introducing a brand new type of MJOLNIR, so we really don't even know if S4's can wear MJOLNIR like Mark V or VI. Likewise, as of Gamma company augmentations (Which was... not that long ago?) we still hadn't heard of ANY sort of advancement in being able to augment adults. Heck, IIRC in the BETA company selections it was still a "If we even go 1% out of the genetic restrictions, failure chance massively increases."


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
There's nothing remotely "sudden" about 51 years of scientific development, unrestrained by morals or cost thanks to the limitless resources of the ONI, home to the brightest minds in the galaxy.


Implying that for 51 years, ONI has done nothing but work on the augmentations. Which I find highly unlikely. Seeing as Spartan 3 augmentations merely removed death factor and allowed the restrictions to be expanded slightly... I'm not seeing the sudden leap from that (while still REQUIRING children) to "Any old adult can get augmentations!"

And seeing as ONI thinks it's the best idea ever to lock up the smartest person concerning forerunner tech and not have her included in that area of research, as well as wasting resources stalking her even while trapped in Onyx... the other minds must not be too bright. Also, ONI isn't limitless. Once the UNSC runs out, they run out. Ugh. More and more ONI is described as Cerberus. That's not good.


For decades ONI was operating several generations of Spartan III's. Building them, training them, and researching the results, always looking for ways to improve it, all after the Spartan II program. After all of that time, how is it hard to believe that they could be prototyping adult augmentations? That was the ultimate goal of the Spartan III program anyway, was to have an army of Spartans on the field. Unless you're implying that Ackerson was fine with kidnapping 100,000 Spartan children for his dream goal?

And who said she was going to be locked up and not used? She's not allowed to go out publically and will remain under the eye of ONI, but did someone say they won't be using her as a resource? I don't remember that.

Yes ONI is limited to the UNSC's ability, but as the UNSC is a dire situation, what with the whole several alien races being seriously pissed off that we ruined the meaning of their existence, forgive the UNSC for giving their most effective military black ops organization a blank check to help defend them. And forgive ONI as well for being as xenophobic as Cerberus. After having several xeno races all trying to tear the species you swore to protect limb from limb for 30 years, you'd be as xenophobic too.

^^Did you not read a reasonable post a while ago saying that GEN 2 could refer to a new way of building MJOLNIR armor? Mk. VII is a brand new build, using nanotech. It could just be another GEN 2 armor, which refers to the new technology, not any specific armor itself.

And Infinity's been under construction for 20 years. That's 20 years of brand new technology being implemented when Earth WASN'T a garbage dump. So do you really expect ONI to just stop building it, to throw away 20 years of investment in brand new technology just because Eath got bombed? That would be the single worst economic decision in human history, trillions of credits flushed down the toilet.

[Edited on 06.23.2012 10:26 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2012 10:21 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Sandtrap
Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.

I admit, I sit a little iffish on Spartan IVs. They just *poofed* in right after the war as if the war never took any tole on the UNSC.


On your part. Noble Team however, didn't affect my view. Made sense honestly, with the slowly dwindling and limited numbers of S2's, they'd grab some S3's to operate on the same level, keep up the Appearance that the Spartans were still an unstoppable force.

However, I agree about S4's. Too much of Glasslands introductions spawn the thoughts of "Didn't Earth, and by extension, the entire Sol system get it's ass handed to them? As in, it's royally ruined and has to be rebuilt before anything can be truly done?" Yet we have Infinity, Spartan IV's, private companies building Mark VII AND this GEN2 armor...


Now, I can understand Infinity, as it was in development for a long time, being built during the war. It was intended to be another chip up humanities sleeve when it was completed.

But, as for the rest of the stuff, I call bullshat.

And as for Noble, I wasn't irritated that they were there, but at how un-spartan they were, no matter which class they belonged to. And my last nitpick, which has no bearing whatsoever, was the custom armour they had. No, just no.

[Edited on 06.23.2012 10:30 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2012 10:27 AM PDT


Posted by: Sandtrap

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Sandtrap
Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.

I admit, I sit a little iffish on Spartan IVs. They just *poofed* in right after the war as if the war never took any tole on the UNSC.


On your part. Noble Team however, didn't affect my view. Made sense honestly, with the slowly dwindling and limited numbers of S2's, they'd grab some S3's to operate on the same level, keep up the Appearance that the Spartans were still an unstoppable force.

However, I agree about S4's. Too much of Glasslands introductions spawn the thoughts of "Didn't Earth, and by extension, the entire Sol system get it's ass handed to them? As in, it's royally ruined and has to be rebuilt before anything can be truly done?" Yet we have Infinity, Spartan IV's, private companies building Mark VII AND this GEN2 armor...


Now, I can understand Infinity, as it was in development for a long time, being built during the war. It was intended to be another chip up humanities sleeve when it was completed.

But, as for the rest of the stuff, I call bullshat.

And as for Noble, I wasn't irritated that they were there, but at how un-spartan they were, no matter which class they belonged to. And my last nitpick, which has no bearing whatsoever, was the custom armour they had. No, just no.


The Spartan IV's have been in planning for decades. Ackerson's original dream with the Spartan III's was to regulate the augmentations enough to create an entire army of Spartans. As I said above, unless he was willingly going to invest in the outrageously dangerous maneuver of kidnapping "100,000 Spartan" children, then the only alternative was to allow the augmentations to be more accesible to the standard human.

The name "Spartan IV" only exists because the SIII program is effectively dead. Ackerson was tortured to death, Onyx exploded along with all of the SIII personal, and the final stage of the plan called for regular humans. The ONLY difference is the name, other than that, the IV's are merely the result of a decade of planning and research.

  • 06.23.2012 10:36 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Sandtrap

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Sandtrap
Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.

I admit, I sit a little iffish on Spartan IVs. They just *poofed* in right after the war as if the war never took any tole on the UNSC.


On your part. Noble Team however, didn't affect my view. Made sense honestly, with the slowly dwindling and limited numbers of S2's, they'd grab some S3's to operate on the same level, keep up the Appearance that the Spartans were still an unstoppable force.

However, I agree about S4's. Too much of Glasslands introductions spawn the thoughts of "Didn't Earth, and by extension, the entire Sol system get it's ass handed to them? As in, it's royally ruined and has to be rebuilt before anything can be truly done?" Yet we have Infinity, Spartan IV's, private companies building Mark VII AND this GEN2 armor...


Now, I can understand Infinity, as it was in development for a long time, being built during the war. It was intended to be another chip up humanities sleeve when it was completed.

But, as for the rest of the stuff, I call bullshat.

And as for Noble, I wasn't irritated that they were there, but at how un-spartan they were, no matter which class they belonged to. And my last nitpick, which has no bearing whatsoever, was the custom armour they had. No, just no.


The Spartan IV's have been in planning for decades. Ackerson's original dream with the Spartan III's was to regulate the augmentations enough to create an entire army of Spartans. As I said above, unless he was willingly going to invest in the outrageously dangerous maneuver of kidnapping "100,000 Spartan" children, then the only alternative was to allow the augmentations to be more accesible to the standard human.

The name "Spartan IV" only exists because the SIII program is effectively dead. Ackerson was tortured to death, Onyx exploded along with all of the SIII personal, and the final stage of the plan called for regular humans. The ONLY difference is the name, other than that, the IV's are merely the result of a decade of planning and research.


I know this. It's more on par with what Orion was intended to be. But I'm just saying they pulled all this new gear and equipment out of thin air. And yeah, sure it was likely being researched, but even still, you need materials, money, and the right equipment for all of that. The UNSC was hardly in a state to fund all that.

  • 06.23.2012 10:44 AM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
For decades ONI was operating several generations of Spartan III's. Building them, training them, and researching the results, always looking for ways to improve it, all after the Spartan II program. After all of that time, how is it hard to believe that they could be prototyping adult augmentations? That was the ultimate goal of the Spartan III program anyway, was to have an army of Spartans on the field. Unless you're implying that Ackerson was fine with kidnapping 100,000 Spartan children for his dream goal?


Again, I'm not saying it's unfeasible. It's the fact it was NEVER, EVER hinted toward. As said, for both Beta and Gamma company it was distinctly implied they still heavily had the "We have this genetic limits. If we go outside it, very big chance of failure comes about." It was never hinted the augmentation process was refined and made better, to the limit that adults could be augmented.

Yes, Ackersons goal was to augment adults, but we never even got a glimpse he was CLOSE to achieving that ability.

And who said she was going to be locked up and not used? She's not allowed to go out publically and will remain under the eye of ONI, but did someone say they won't be using her as a resource? I don't remember that.

The fact she's locked and IIRC, basically told if she tries escaping she'll be killed? Remember, scientists do NOT produce the best results when held against their will and forced to work as I recall.

Yes ONI is limited to the UNSC's ability, but as the UNSC is a dire situation, what with the whole several alien races being seriously pissed off that we ruined the meaning of their existence, forgive the UNSC for giving their most effective military black ops organization a blank check to help defend them. And forgive ONI as well for being as xenophobic as Cerberus. After having several xeno races all trying to tear the species you swore to protect limb from limb for 30 years, you'd be as xenophobic too.

This implies UNSC knows what the -blam!- ONI is doing. Glasslands made it VERY, VERY clear UNSC hasn't an idea what ONI is doing. I believe Parangosky mentions that "Infinity is too many resources diverted to escape attention, but I told a single admiral just enough to remove any concerns." ONI is supposed to be an intelligence branch, not a black ops military group. It's supposed to answer entirely to the Admiralty board, not have Parangosky act like a Queen to purposefully go AGAINST the head of the admiralty board's choices. Or personally pick her successor and promote her. That's the admiralty board's job.

I might be wary of aliens, but I wouldn't purposefully go against the one ADVOCATING PEACE. I wouldn't be doing EXACTLY what the "Death to all humans!" groups are saying humanity is like. It's not just xenophobic being like Cerberus. It's the "Muhahaha we are secret evil with no boss(which is untrue for ONI, they HAVE A BOSS, clearly labeled in canon), no limits to our resources, and can do whatever we want including be retarded evil!"

^^Did you not read a reasonable post a while ago saying that GEN 2 could refer to a new way of building MJOLNIR armor? Mk. VII is a brand new build, using nanotech. It could just be another GEN 2 armor, which refers to the new technology, not any specific armor itself.

Which post would that be? and again, I constantly see Mark VII and "GEN2" being used to describe two entirely different armor sets.

And Infinity's been under construction for 20 years. That's 20 years of brand new technology being implemented when Earth WASN'T a garbage dump. So do you really expect ONI to just stop building it, to throw away 20 years of investment in brand new technology just because Eath got bombed? That would be the single worst economic decision in human history, trillions of credits flushed down the toilet.

Yeah, because humanity (and it's CONSTANT having to give up or destroy forerunner ruins, as well as not having it's most brilliant minds concerning forerunners) magically had Forerunner ship weapons, engines, and other tech to reverse engineer. Likewise, this implies they've had it for 20 years and NEVER shared it with the rest of UNSC, aka, purposefully held back damn useful information. Hell, it's hinted they have a space station orbiting halo ring 03. and it's been there a while. Yet none of humanity knew. ONI cares not for humans. It only cares for itself.

You admit it yourself, post halo 3 Earth and Sol got bombed to hell. MASSIVE difference between "Project on hold, let's -blam!- rebuild Earth and Sol system so humanity as least has a STRONG capital as well as a good base to rebuild our fleets and economy." and "Okay, we are sending Infinity into the sun, deleting all research and specs, and rebuilding Earth."

The single worst economic decision would be that ONI funds Spartan IV's, Infinity, who knows what else, and supplies an Elite civil war, all instead of rebuilding Earth, Mars, and the rest of Sol. That they had private companies build new MJOLNIR instead of actually useful things for rebuilding humanity. It's like, in a match of SC2. your base gets gutted. Instead of rebuilding supply deploys, barracks, and your SVC numbers, you have your three remaining sit there and start building mass battlecruisers from your starport. It's just a retarded idea instead of rebuilding base, then making battlecruisers once your home location is stable.

Edit: As sandtrap said, Earth post halo 3 is in now place to start making new MJOLNIR and Spartans. Where the hell did these resources and funding come from?

To sandtraps previous post. "Un-spartan?" and I didn't see an issue with the armor. Makes sense that it'd be fitted for each one's role.

[Edited on 06.23.2012 11:02 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2012 11:00 AM PDT


Posted by: Sandtrap

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Sandtrap
Noble Team degraded my view of Spartan IIIs immensely.

I admit, I sit a little iffish on Spartan IVs. They just *poofed* in right after the war as if the war never took any tole on the UNSC.[/quote]

On your part. Noble Team however, didn't affect my view. Made sense honestly, with the slowly dwindling and limited numbers of S2's, they'd grab some S3's to operate on the same level, keep up the Appearance that the Spartans were still an unstoppable force.

However, I agree about S4's. Too much of Glasslands introductions spawn the thoughts of "Didn't Earth, and by extension, the entire Sol system get it's ass handed to them? As in, it's royally ruined and has to be rebuilt before anything can be truly done?" Yet we have Infinity, Spartan IV's, private companies building Mark VII AND this GEN2 armor...


Now, I can understand Infinity, as it was in development for a long time, being built during the war. It was intended to be another chip up humanities sleeve when it was completed.

But, as for the rest of the stuff, I call bullshat.

And as for Noble, I wasn't irritated that they were there, but at how un-spartan they were, no matter which class they belonged to. And my last nitpick, which has no bearing whatsoever, was the custom armour they had. No, just no.


The Spartan IV's have been in planning for decades. Ackerson's original dream with the Spartan III's was to regulate the augmentations enough to create an entire army of Spartans. As I said above, unless he was willingly going to invest in the outrageously dangerous maneuver of kidnapping "100,000 Spartan" children, then the only alternative was to allow the augmentations to be more accesible to the standard human.

The name "Spartan IV" only exists because the SIII program is effectively dead. Ackerson was tortured to death, Onyx exploded along with all of the SIII personal, and the final stage of the plan called for regular humans. The ONLY difference is the name, other than that, the IV's are merely the result of a decade of planning and research.


I know this. It's more on par with what Orion was intended to be. But I'm just saying they pulled all this new gear and equipment out of thin air. And yeah, sure it was likely being researched, but even still, you need materials, money, and the right equipment for all of that. The UNSC was hardly in a state to fund all that.


How is that nobody complained about the Mk. VI armor being devoloped? Keep in mind the devolopment of Mk. VI was finished just a few months prior to the prototype Mk. VII armor. The UNSC's economic state was little different between then and now. Remember earth wasn't destroyed. The covenant only targeted select spots on the planet, nothing like infrastructure and banks. So a difference between four or five months, and both just a few months after MJOLNIR Mk. V was introduced, yet the only thing the fans complain about is Mk. VII, which has been in devolopment alongside the other technology, each by different private contractors likely, for years, all the way back when the UNSC's economic status wasn't a mess.

And that's another thing. What is the UNSC's economic status? All we know is that it is bad, but we don't know anything about how it works and where it is right now to make a guess on what it is capable of achieving comfortably. What does "bad" mean exactly? Relative to the UNSC's status prior to the war probably, but what was it like then? And then you have to take into account the fact that the UNSC is just the military arm of the UEG. We've only been privvy to a fraction of the overall abilities of the human government.

Until these questions can be answered, the only argument that can be made for or against it is complete guess work. In fact, since we know literally nothing, the ONLY thing that we can look to to figure out just how it is holding up is looking at the results of its capability. With all of the new military hardware emerging, plus the jobs that spawn to build that hardware, amongst other things, then it seems clear to me that the economic status of the human race isn't as terrible as people think.

It is the epitome of arrogance to think that you or any one can say with any certainty that the UNSC can or can not do what they do while looking only at the economic status of the UEG when we haven't the slightest clue how it works or where it is. Our knowledge of the UEG's economy go as far as the words "this costs a lot," nothing else.

So, to me, the fact that they are doing these things just tells me that they can. When you get the UEG Governmental Encyclopdia, then you can say that they can or can not do something.

Fundamentally however, arguing about the econmic status and ability of a fictional government when the economy of said government has only ever been mentioned in passing is just nit picking to the nth degree; nobody knows nor cares how much a Frigate costs, or how much a MJOLNIR VII armor costs relative to a MK. VI armor. If they did then everybody should be -blam!- ing just as much about the Mk VI armor appearing out of thin air despite the UNSC's obviously weak economy, yet they don't, because no one really cares. The only reason I've ever known any one to nit pick is if they are trying, desperately at that, to make themselves seem right. In this case, the only reason someone would want themselves to seem right is if they have a bias against the story tellers. Again I'll remind you that it wasn't until 343i took over that any one cared about the economic ramifications of a new MJOLNIR armor was being devoloped, despite the two prior armors being introduced at close to the exact same chronological time.

  • 06.23.2012 11:12 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

It's a good thing ONI is improving the UNSC warmachine by controlling Forerunner superweapons and reverse engineering the tech and so on.

Because an ancient evil is about to attack the galaxy, so it's better to have a powerful navy and army or else this evil pwns you fast.

Let the UNSC and UEG work on rebuilding everything while ONI uses their budget for weapons.

  • 06.23.2012 11:17 AM PDT

Really, I'll just point out something a friend did. In nearly every single case, the UNSC had to give up, flee, or destroy forerunner sites before they could actually study it.

Given how long it took them to reverse engineer freaking Jackal shield gauntlets, for them to have successfully reverse engineered several ship systems from forerunner tech alongside other things is stupid.

When the hell did they get working forerunner ships to reverse engineer the engines and weapon systems? You can't reverse engineer forerunner systems without that exact system. For them to be able to have a "forerunner enhanced slipspace drive" means they HAVE A FORERUNNER SLIPSPACE DRIVE to reverse engineer. Likewise, their most brilliant minds concerning the forerunners are missing or dead.

Seriously, I'm frankly positive most of us here aren't against the tech itself, or improvements. It's that it's post halo 3, Sol system is effectively in ruins. Humanities fleet is shattered. Suddenly, we have all this shiny brand new tech pulled out of ONI's ass with no explanation.

About Earth, given how Miranda describes the casualties as "extreme", and we know many major cities got bombarded... and last I check most key infrastructure is held within cities, I'd say it's probably in bad shape. Given that I assume the Mar's factories and shipyards got wrecked as well, I don't see why they should be able to produce new armors. Mark VI, as I know it, was already having prototypes out when mark V was, and thus only had to have final revisions. Likewise, very few suits were made. With this GEN2 armor, it's being mass produced for many Spartan IV's. Seeing as we hear that Gamma company will be offered to join the ranks, we must assume at least 300 suits can be made given if nearly all of Gamma survived.

[Edited on 06.23.2012 11:31 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2012 11:31 AM PDT