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This topic has moved here: Subject: Bungie - Drop the dual wielding
  • Subject: Bungie - Drop the dual wielding
Subject: Bungie - Drop the dual wielding

FACT: Dual wielding gives us weapons that are half as good

  • 06.14.2006 8:07 AM PDT
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man you talk -blam!-

dual wield = holding 2 weapon

nothing abouth the weapons change only the effect on the enermy
and one off the most power ful weapon combo's are in dual wield

plasma rifle and smg

try it
and than say things like po-po

[Edited on 6/14/2006]

  • 06.14.2006 8:18 AM PDT
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My way would be...

1 Duel wieldable weapon.
*right hand*
Power: 100%
Recoil: 25%
Reload: 50% of time.
Accuracy: 100%

2 Duel wielded weapons.
*right hand*
Power: 70%
Recoil: 50%
Reload: 75% of time.
Accuracy: 50-75%

EDIT=My face

[Edited on 6/14/2006]

  • 06.14.2006 8:19 AM PDT

beefy

DW rocks and before anyone says I cn also use any other gun in the game, don't get me wrong though DW is very powerful, but many a time I have killed DW with an smg and a whack. DW brings alot more stratigic options in the game. DW all the way

  • 06.14.2006 8:19 AM PDT

Posted by: AmonRa
man you talk -blam!-

dual wield = holding 2 weapon

nothing abouth the weapons change only the effect on the enermy
and one off the most power ful weapon combo's are in dual wield

plasma rifle and smg

try it
and than say things like po-po


No you... *grits teeth* because the weapons are dual-wieldable they have to be half as strong as they would be otherwise. This is a fact.

  • 06.14.2006 8:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: RhythmKiller
FACT: Dual wielding gives us weapons that are half as good

QFT. Give this man a medal.

Bungie will never take out duel wielding because the BRAINLESS casuals say: "I only buy teh halo 4 teh tri wielding. it is kol..."
If you like deul wielding you are as bad as the casuals.
Duel wielding ruins weapon "balance"
Forces good weapons when on their own to be bad to allow for DW.
(eg look at the Plasma rifle)
It makes *ALL* duel wieldable weapons; rubbish + short range.
It prevents tactics like grenade throughing,
and mellieing. There is no good to it. FACT!

Look at my post above and that is what bungie should do.

  • 06.14.2006 8:27 AM PDT
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spelling and gramatical errors aside Gruntbuster and RhythmKiller have valid points.

  • 06.15.2006 3:30 PM PDT

[URL] ;)

Posted by: Silberner Drache
spelling and gramatical errors aside Gruntbuster and RhythmKiller have valid points.

You should not be pointing out spelling or grammar errors.

To the main topic, yes. Duel wielding either needs to be dropped or heavily reworked, for reasons already specified in this thread.

EDIT: For those of you who think duel-wielding should stay. Please, give a better response then "Du3l w1eldz is teh pWnzorz." It's fine to have your own opinions, but comments like that don't help your side of the argument.

[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 4:11 PM PDT

"I'm hungry..."

Dual wielding was a good addition but it needs to be tweaked.

  • 06.15.2006 4:19 PM PDT
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Balancing DW is what needs done, not removal. Here's how I'd do it.

Here are a few key points to keep in mind before I get into specifics on each gun

1.Every gun has an opening sequence before it can be fired, stronger weapons take a bit longer. This fixes numerous issues, like the noob combo, sword, and even the sniper as a close range weapon (you can't no-scope and then BR someone). Many people want the PP to have a period where it can’t be switched off while overheating, my solution is superior to that, IMO because it makes it more universal with every gun, the BR would cause the shot delay. The only real noob combo would be PP/Pistol, which honestly makes a lot of sense. Since you’re DW you can’t throw nades and aiming the pistol is fairly hard, and only works against 1 target. Remember, this period is very short. Like when you pull out a shotgun in halo 1 or 2, you can’t just fire right away. Or how the h1 rocket launcher spun in the barrel, stronger guns take longer. The BR would be around the h1 pistol’s no-fire time.

2.Auto-aim is now a toggle able option, strong is like h2 is now, medium is stronger than h1 weaker than h2, weak is like halo 1. It’s just in one of the game type setup screens when you make custom game types. Sweep sniping and magnetic bullets are what is affected. So a gun that requires you to lead your target won’t require it hardly at all if you play heavy aa settings. Remember once you make a game type everyone has to use that amount of auto-aim, this is NOT like the handicap option. This stops lan games from being ruined by the high auto-aim, while still making the game playable online. Everyone’s happy!

3.You can now double melee. If you hit the melee button followed by one of the 360’s top triggers and then the melee again with the correct timing you will melee 2x very quickly, about the same speed as medium speed a h1 double melee. (h1 pistol double melee is about fast enough) It wont’ kill unless you were moving when you hit your opponent. You also no longer lunge with the melee’s but their range is slightly longer than in halo 2 around the same range as the halo 1 melees. It adds skill back into halo’s melee system and Bungie planned on making melee combos in h2, but ran out of time.

4. The 4th and most important point: KILL SPEED! Everything revolves around the BR, which now kills as fast as the h1 pistol, keep that in mind as you review this. No longer will their be 2-3 second firefights followed by one guy running away. The DW’s are powered up as well, making any encounter a potential death assuming you can shoot accurately.

Battle Rifle: The Battle Rifle will similar to the original halo 1 pistol. It will be a 4sk weapon, but will fire 1/3 faster than the halo 1 pistol, giving it the same kill speed. A 16 bullet clip will give it allow it to eliminate 4 people before reload is required. The scope will be a 2x zoom to allow easier combat of snipers The gun won’t have the accuracy of the BR in the respect that the bullets won’t always hit in the center of the cursor, think back to the halo 1 pistol for a good reference. The bullets fired in slightly random patterns around the cursor edge. The effective range would also be similar to the pistol in the respect that it hits nearly anywhere as long as you lead the target. Their will not be a 3 shot burst in any mode. Most real life soldiers refrain from the 3 shot burst anyway because it wastes ammunition and isn’t as accurate.

Sniper Rifle: The gun should nearly the same as it’s halo 2 counterpart except that true ballistics should be reintroduced (piercing) and you may have to lead a long range, depending on your game types auto-aim setting. In addition, the sniper can now fire with unlimited range.

Magnum: The magnums should be a mixture of halo 1.1 and 1.0. The guns would be a 10sk firing at it's current speed. Making it a very fast kill as a DW, but with the some of the lowest magnetism in the game, it’ll be quite difficult to use. The guns range would stay about the same as they are right now, not much to change on this one.


SMG: Dual SMG‘s should be the power of a h1 AR so 1 SMG is half that, a bit more powerful than the SMG we have now, with greatly increased range (in comparison the h2 SMG, true range is ARish) This means that a DW can beat just about anything that he’s facing assuming he gets the drop on them, which is the entire point of that type of close range combat anyway.

Rocket: The rocket should maintain it’s h2 abilities. The only change I can see would be only allowing the lock on feature to work when zoomed in and a slightly increased damage radius, since MC jumps so high now, you really can’t afford to always shoot 2.

Fragmentation Grenades: They should be nearly the same as it’s v1.1 counterpart except they have a bit more of a explosion radius (in between h1 and h2) and light vehicles should die if a grenade hits them dead on. (ghost, spectre, hog,)

  • 06.15.2006 4:23 PM PDT
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Carbine: The carbine should be similar to the halo 2 gun, but more powerful to keep up with the new BR. It should slower than the BR, at h1 pistol speed, giving it a 3sk. This gun IS the h1 pistol in a covey form.


Needler: The needler should stay about the same as it is in h2. Perhaps a bit more homing, but I believe the gun cannot be both truly useable and not cheap at the same time. If it homes enough to be effective it’s broken since it requires little to no aiming for an easy kill. I guess this one would just have to be play tested until something somewhat useable was created.

Plasma Rifle: The plasma rifle should be very similar to it’s halo 2 counterpart. The only differences being that the damage should be upped a bit more against shields and accuracy should be increased, becoming very accurate if you fire it slowly (like the h1 version) making it a bit better for DW, and even useful if you just have 1.

Brute Plamsa Rifle: Bungie had this gun is SP only until the update, if they want to make it a real gun, here’s how I think they should do it. My idea makes sense in regards to the storyline and would be balanced. Make the Brute PR like the H1 PR. A large weapon with both type of freeze effects. All they’d have to do is make it bigger. After all, brutes are a big brutish race, their PR’s should look pretty beefy compared to a elites. Then it could be a single wield weapon only. It would make the brutes gun distinctive instead of an afterthought like it is in h2.

Plasma Pistol: The plasma pistol is the covenant weapon with the biggest need for a change. The overcharge shot should still break any shielding instantly. The single shot will get the greatest overhaul. The PP should be capable of firing as fast as the person pulling the trigger, just like the halo1 plasma pistol. It should have a very strong freeze effect both in movement and in turning, like it’s h1 counterpart. The semi-automatic nature facilitates aiming, while giving people the halo 1 plasma rifle feel that many players seem to miss in h2. Perfect mix of both worlds. The homing can stay where it is because the guns now kill so fast that by the time you switch guns you’ve already lost, it’s now a true DW weapon, as it was intended to be. The gun will actually be better than it is in h2, in every respect, but due to every other gun getting a boost, it’s much more balanced than the h2 version. My other changes fix most of the “problems” people have with this weapon, treat the sickness, not the symptoms I always say ;)

Brute Shot: Maintains the same overall feel as the h2 v1.1 model. The gun doesn’t really fit in with the halo MP feel, IMO, the game already has all ranges covered, so it’s a filler weapon, good for melee’s though. Just a bit more damage to keep up with the joneses and it’s good to go.

Sword: Just a few changes need to be made here since with every gun killing much faster than in halo 2, it’s nearly balanced as is. First thing it now has an ammo counter, 5 lunges or 10 swings. Secondly you can only lunge while on the ground, but if you lunge and are not longer touching the ground, he’ll keep going. Other than that, it’s about balanced. Remember though, you can no longer just pull it out and lunge, you have to go through the opening animation.



Dual Wielding: Duel wielding is one of the biggest changes in h2. It is what, initially, made halo 1 fans so angry about halo 2, it was unbalanced. Below are the list of “good” DW combos, so no, I won’t discuss PR/PP. With them I will give a general description of how the combo should “feel” extensive play testing with good people are the keys to success here.

PR/SMG: The meat and potatoes combo. At a nice close range, this combo is a good match against a near perfect BR. If the DW gets the jump on him, the only way to win should be a very well though out attack plan. A 4sk will be good enough sometimes, but if the DW has anything more than a .2 second advantage, he should probably win. This allows a careful DW to beat a very good opponent. Just the way a AR could in halo 1beat a pistol if he got the jump, only this combo is slightly better as far as DPS goes, if your close.

PP/SMG: This combo can now be used 2 ways effectively. The freeze charge is a different beast all together. Other than that it would work like the h2 version, but with much higher damage (SMG hurts more, remember)

PP/mag: This will be the only remaining “noob combo”. Due to the BR’s opening sequence, the PP/BR combo is now too slow to kill a BR wielder who started shooting as the PP shot was released. Now if someone wants to noob combo they will be forced to use a DW and aim the magnum. If he misses his PP shot, he’s basically screwed, as a he should be. Price you pay for a potentially 2 shot kill, even vs. an OS guy.

SMG/Mag: This combo is a good combination of range and power. It kills very fast just like the PR/SMG, but can fight at ranges of greater than 5 feet, actually around 10 feet. It’ll kill just as quick as a PR/SMG, with longer reach, but the aiming skill required is a bit more. Overall this and dual mags are the strongest combo’s, but they also require the most aim.

Mag/Mag: This combo is one of the faster killers with the longest range. It’s only downfall it that since you can’t spray them around like automatics, you really have to aim well to be effective. Making the overall best DW, the hardest one to use.


In my opinon this balance build would be as fair as halo 1, but with all the features people like about h2.


[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 4:24 PM PDT

[URL] ;)

Good points T3mpest, my only disagreement is the rockets. I think it should lose its ability to lock-on to ground vehicles, while maintaining it for air vehicles. That, or lower the homing ability.

[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 4:33 PM PDT
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Dual wielding owns

  • 06.15.2006 5:05 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: GruntBuster
Posted by: RhythmKiller
FACT: Dual wielding gives us weapons that are half as good

QFT. Give this man a medal.

Bungie will never take out duel wielding because the BRAINLESS casuals say: "I only buy teh halo 4 teh tri wielding. it is kol..."
If you like deul wielding you are as bad as the casuals.
Duel wielding ruins weapon "balance"
Forces good weapons when on their own to be bad to allow for DW.
(eg look at the Plasma rifle)
It makes *ALL* duel wieldable weapons; rubbish + short range.
It prevents tactics like grenade throughing,
and mellieing. There is no good to it. FACT!

Look at my post above and that is what bungie should do.



I wonder if Spartan 117 cried as much as you when bungie handed him the good ol' ma5b AR..

  • 06.15.2006 7:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Posted by: Manibou737
People who hate dual wielding just suck, its them not the dual wielding


I've never understood that argument. It's not possible to suck when you have a dual weild. It's only possible to suck when you do not have it, and your opponnent does.

Wow that is the best statement I've read on this forum in a long time. I completely agree with you.

  • 06.15.2006 7:29 PM PDT
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No. That was one of two things that Halo: Combat Evolved lacked.

  • 06.15.2006 7:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: SilentWolf
I played through halo:ce with a buddy again for the 100th time this weekend. It startled me how much more fun I had with the combat in halo 1. Sure some of it was level design, but a large part of it was the solidness of the weapons and the choice you had to make per combat situation because you could only hold 2 weapons. This became especially important in co-op as each man could fulfill differnt roles. I really hope bungie takes out the dual wielding for halo 3. How about you guys? =)
LEt's use a commen sense example.

If you had a White Ultra Elite, very close to you with a Sword, no proficent weapons available or enough timje for a stick, wouldn't you grab a nearby plasma pistol, take down his shields, and finish him off with a magnum? Without a duel weilded Plasam Pistol ,the Magnum is junk, so is your Battle Rifle, on Legendary it is worthless unless you incorporate the PP/BR combo, which you could do right there, but keep in mind you have an Elite 10 feet away, running to you, you wont have time to establish a lock and charge it up, then switch, it would be much faster to just duel weild, wouldn't you do that in a modern combat situation if Plasma and shields existed? yes. You might not evenhave a Battle Rifle, maybe an SMG, taking down with a Magnum is much quicker.

Also, it is a way of strategy, if there arn't any available Battle Rifles or carbines, use your SMG and Duel weild with a Magnum, kills much faster, and actually looks cool as well :). IT also balances out the Sword and Shotgun, and Battle Rifle/Carbine. Making Plasma Rifles and SMG's a better use. Even Needlers, in Halo 1 it wasn't as deadly, sounded cooler, but not as sufficent. IN Halo 2, faster melee AND duel weild, from medium range duel weilded needlers can get the job done.

Have a better understanding now?

  • 06.15.2006 7:45 PM PDT
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two SMG's can out power the AR so shut up Dualwield Haters
p.s the AR has the same range as the SMG that's why there is no AR in Halo2

[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 7:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: RAFXXX
two SMG's can out power the AR so shut up Dualwield Haters
p.s the AR has the same range as the SMG that's why there is no Ar in Halo2
Ya, people never notice that....

  • 06.15.2006 8:00 PM PDT
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One post brings up a good point, even though everyone is entitled to dual wield. they also spawn with only one weapon and find the one they are presumably good with and spend alot of time trying to find it while you have other players already running around with two weapons, you're already overpowered once you spawn! But yes in all great idea, dual wield was a good idea!

  • 06.15.2006 8:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Halomaster1232
THat doesnt make since if it decreases the accuracy. They're still the same wepon even if ur dual-wielding.


(very late quote to an early post) Actually it does. When you have a second hand free, do you use a pistol with one hand? No, you grip it with two. Why? Because you have a steadier aim with two. Therefore, with a pistol (or any DW weap) if you hold one, you hold it with two hands, making your aim steadier. With two weapons, the cheif dosn't of course have 4 hands, so he cant hold them as steady. Therefore, all the people saying duel-wielding should reduce accuracy, I say it is a great idea, and should have been implimented before.

  • 06.15.2006 8:20 PM PDT

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.
Teach a man religion, and he will starve to death praying for a fish.

if you don't like dual weilding, then don't do it. It's really not that hard.

  • 06.15.2006 8:33 PM PDT
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all they do is just weaken the weapons and it makes the whole point of having 2 pointless

  • 06.15.2006 9:07 PM PDT
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i like dual wielding because it adds alot of strategy. i many times dual wield but someone gets too close to me so i hit them (losing my second weapon). you may also want to quickly drop the second weapon so you can throw grenades. since you lose the weapon it balances it out. i also can beat a dual wielder. it isn't off balance.

[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 9:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: SilentWolf
I played through halo:ce with a buddy again for the 100th time this weekend. It startled me how much more fun I had with the combat in halo 1. Sure some of it was level design, but a large part of it was the solidness of the weapons and the choice you had to make per combat situation because you could only hold 2 weapons. This became especially important in co-op as each man could fulfill differnt roles. I really hope bungie takes out the dual wielding for halo 3. How about you guys? =)

you dont HAVE to dual wield. It's an option

  • 06.15.2006 9:23 PM PDT