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  • Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?
Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?
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Posted by: Twelve Large
Posted by: JDuB 9684
This got rid of a lot of camping and made sure some "lucky noob" didn't walk along and luckily find a rocket and shoot an unsuspecting pro with it.


What are you doing playing with noobs? Do you say this everytime someone beats you? I thought Halo 2 ranked players over time by a player or teams ability to overcome adversity and kick ass? Anyone who is "legitimately" ranked up in the top spots on the Halo 2 leader boards isn't a "noob." Regardless of how they come across the SPNKR.


Halo 2's ranking system is unreliable and easily exploited. The reason Bungie took down the leaderboard was because everybody ranked at the top were a bunch of cheating/boosting noobs.

Posted by: stewby123
if anybody from bungie reads this please send me a message i wou;d like to test out the final design for halo 3 =)


So would a million other people

[Edited on 6/17/2006]

  • 06.17.2006 4:49 PM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Because there are so many tired old arguments being relived here, I will [instead of continuing them] try to codify some partially tangential thoughts I've had on the matter.


Someone wrote that Halo shouldn't be like "Candyland" and that if he is the better player he should always win.

Let me refer to the game of Football. Many have wondered why "the beautiful game" has for so long been the game of choice for most peoples on the Earth. Ninety minutes of 22 players manoeuvring a ball about a pitch hoping to put it in the back of the opposition's goal. What makes Football more popular than Rugby, Cricket, Baseball or American Football? An interesting study [the title and author of which I cannot remember] concluded that it was a combination of the fact that Football is a low-scoring game where every goal is highly valued, and the fact that in Football, the better side does not always win and indeed can often be defeated by random events and the efforts of a technically lesser team.

Football is the global sport because it is not predictable; because it rejects the mechanistic dynamic that other games seem to be based upon.

Now, is this lack of predictability not a factor in Halo's success? My experiences with Halo 1 and 2 certainly compel me to think so. I remember getting the Active Camouflage on Sidewinder and flying a ghost off the cliffs near the enemy base, disembarking halfway to the ground and killing an entire base of far better players who were distracted by my pilot-less ghost. I recall being slaughtered in Slayer matches by players who I'd normally eat for breakfast. The same applies in Halo 2.

Any game where the best player always wins is by default a boring game.

[Edited on 6/17/2006]

  • 06.17.2006 4:53 PM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Halo 2's ranking system is unreliable and easily exploited. The reason Bungie took down the leaderboard was because everybody ranked at the top were a bunch of cheating/boosting noobs.

The N word is not permitted here.

  • 06.17.2006 4:58 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: USATitan
Posted by: Twelve Large
Posted by: JDuB 9684
This got rid of a lot of camping and made sure some "lucky noob" didn't walk along and luckily find a rocket and shoot an unsuspecting pro with it.


What are you doing playing with noobs? Do you say this everytime someone beats you? I thought Halo 2 ranked players over time by a player or teams ability to overcome adversity and kick ass? Anyone who is "legitimately" ranked up in the top spots on the Halo 2 leader boards isn't a "noob." Regardless of how they come across the SPNKR.


Halo 2's ranking system is unreliable and easily exploited. The reason Bungie took down the leaderboard was because everybody ranked at the top were a bunch of cheating/boosting noobs.


I understand. Which is why I emphasised legitimately by placing it within' parenthesis.

If somone "cheats" their way up the leaderboard, then a legetimate "pro" shouldn't have any trouble kicking their ass, but that's just my opinion. I'm sorry the game isn't fun for you guys.. I'm just glad I suck now, and I don't have to put up with any of the stuff that goes on at the top of the leaderboards.

  • 06.17.2006 5:19 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: Sir Fragula
Halo 2's ranking system is unreliable and easily exploited. The reason Bungie took down the leaderboard was because everybody ranked at the top were a bunch of cheating/boosting noobs.

The N word is not permitted here.


Even if you add an 's' to the end of it? Or what about 'zors'?

[Edited on 6/17/2006]

  • 06.17.2006 5:22 PM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Posted by: Twelve Large
Posted by: Sir Fragula
Halo 2's ranking system is unreliable and easily exploited. The reason Bungie took down the leaderboard was because everybody ranked at the top were a bunch of cheating/boosting noobs.

The N word is not permitted here.


Even if you add an 's' to the end of it? Or what about 'zors'?


No form of it is welcome.

  • 06.17.2006 6:21 PM PDT
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If somone "cheats" their way up the leaderboard, then a legetimate "pro" shouldn't have any trouble kicking their ass, but that's just my opinion. I'm sorry the game isn't fun for you guys.. I'm just glad I suck now, and I don't have to put up with any of the stuff that goes on at the top of the leaderboards.


And that is where you are incorrect. No "pro" can possibly take on a team of Modders with host that can hold down the "r" trigger and let their spawn mods destroy the "pro" team.

[Edited on 6/17/2006]

  • 06.17.2006 6:42 PM PDT
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NOT TO BE MEAN!!! But I think the studio designer's son at bungie is Playtesting Halo 3.
http://videogames.aol.com/gallery/fathers-of-gaming

Go to page 5 and look in the background and the kid.
Does the big projection screen look like Halo 3.

OMG I Will get owned in Halo 3 by him

  • 06.17.2006 7:53 PM PDT
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Personally, I have to disagree with the argument that people complain about Halo 2 Live because they are no longer the best, rather I would argue that people complain because they feel they are losing for the wrong reasons. What is a better way to lose, losing to a team with better shooting skills, level control, and teamwork, or losing to a team that got power weapons based off their initial spawn which allowed them to get a lead and then sit in one area, forcing the other team to attack with insufficient weapons. You can say, oh well if you are good you would have got weapons to ovetake them but if that was the case then they weren't good in the first place so it wouldn't matter about the spawn. To me, getting killed and learning what you could have done better or differently rather than having it attributed to simply weaponry makes a game more exciting and makes it stay fresh.

I remember when I first started lanning H1 the summer before H2 came out, I was playing with people I had just met at my dorm who were way better than me. It was frustrating to get owned by them so continually, but I learned quickly and increased my skill to where I eventually surpassed them. I think that is the one overwhelming appeal to people that say Halo 1 is better. The fact that there is not a real limit to how good you can get at the game makes it a very fun game to play, because you can always do something crazy that you haven't done before because you have gotten better. In Halo 2, to me this feeling isn't there. I don't feel like I can really get much better as far as shooting skills, maybe a little, but rather it is all about working with your team. To me the teamwork aspect is good, but individual skill should be allowed to show. I you are good enough to kill the entire team in a CTF game, then it is their fault that they all got owned by one person. Halo 2 does too much to help out people that otherwise would be terrible, it doesn't always show who the best player really was, one reason the ranking system is flawed at times.

Back to the topic. I also think that people misunderstand where pros and competitive players come from when they talk about the game and how it should be. They don't feel the game should have one do it all weapon, but rather one weapon that can make do in most situations if you are good enough, and other weapons you can pick up to use in situations that the main weapon isn't as effective. For example, if someone pulls a shotgun from a good distance away and shoots at someone with a BR, they should die if the BR user is skilled enough. However, if someone has a sniper and I spawn in an open area quick enough to turn and shoot them and they aren't clear across the map, how is it fair that this doesn't matter and I die anyway. I think Halo 3 can certainly be fun for all crowds if it is balanced properly, and to me everyone besides the very worst players should have some kind of say, because bad players simply don't notice little things. The bottom line is good players will see things that could hinder an enjoyable, balanced, fun playing experiance, and just because the casual gamer doesn't care either way doesn't mean it should be there.

  • 06.17.2006 11:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sir Fragula
Because there are so many tired old arguments being relived here, I will [instead of continuing them] try to codify some partially tangential thoughts I've had on the matter.


Someone wrote that Halo shouldn't be like "Candyland" and that if he is the better player he should always win.

Let me refer to the game of Football. Many have wondered why "the beautiful game" has for so long been the game of choice for most peoples on the Earth. Ninety minutes of 22 players manoeuvring a ball about a pitch hoping to put it in the back of the opposition's goal. What makes Football more popular than Rugby, Cricket, Baseball or American Football? An interesting study [the title and author of which I cannot remember] concluded that it was a combination of the fact that Football is a low-scoring game where every goal is highly valued, and the fact that in Football, the better side does not always win and indeed can often be defeated by random events and the efforts of a technically lesser team.

Football is the global sport because it is not predictable; because it rejects the mechanistic dynamic that other games seem to be based upon.

Now, is this lack of predictability not a factor in Halo's success? My experiences with Halo 1 and 2 certainly compel me to think so. I remember getting the Active Camouflage on Sidewinder and flying a ghost off the cliffs near the enemy base, disembarking halfway to the ground and killing an entire base of far better players who were distracted by my pilot-less ghost. I recall being slaughtered in Slayer matches by players who I'd normally eat for breakfast. The same applies in Halo 2.

Any game where the best player always wins is by default a boring game.


I am sorry but I will have to disagree with you at the end of that post. What is boring is a game where someone is a good or great player and then a newer player can easily kill him with a rocket/sword just because he spawned right next to it and with the auto-aim cranked up it makes it VERY easy for worse players to kill better players. Thats why some of the good people quit halo all together, because they don't get rewarded for being good in Halo2. (AKA win a game) Also, if I remember, in football the better team/coach usually wins. The coach that has the better plays and players will most likely kill the other team if they have crappy players and a coach that doesn't know his plays very well. What I am basically trying to say it this:
http://halo2sucks.com/images/skillmeter.gif
Halo3 has a shot at being a great and balanced game because all Bungie has to do is lower the auto aim, fix some glitches, give the players a decent spawn weapon(NOT AN SMG). The skill level in Halo would go up a ton. I quit Halo until Halo3 comes out because I got tiered of people winning just because they spawn near the better weapons and can just control the spawns and spawn camp you the whole game.

  • 06.18.2006 12:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sir Fragula
Because there are so many tired old arguments being relived here, I will [instead of continuing them] try to codify some partially tangential thoughts I've had on the matter.


Someone wrote that Halo shouldn't be like "Candyland" and that if he is the better player he should always win.

Let me refer to the game of Football. Many have wondered why "the beautiful game" has for so long been the game of choice for most peoples on the Earth. Ninety minutes of 22 players manoeuvring a ball about a pitch hoping to put it in the back of the opposition's goal. What makes Football more popular than Rugby, Cricket, Baseball or American Football? An interesting study [the title and author of which I cannot remember] concluded that it was a combination of the fact that Football is a low-scoring game where every goal is highly valued, and the fact that in Football, the better side does not always win and indeed can often be defeated by random events and the efforts of a technically lesser team.

Football is the global sport because it is not predictable; because it rejects the mechanistic dynamic that other games seem to be based upon.

Now, is this lack of predictability not a factor in Halo's success? My experiences with Halo 1 and 2 certainly compel me to think so. I remember getting the Active Camouflage on Sidewinder and flying a ghost off the cliffs near the enemy base, disembarking halfway to the ground and killing an entire base of far better players who were distracted by my pilot-less ghost. I recall being slaughtered in Slayer matches by players who I'd normally eat for breakfast. The same applies in Halo 2.

Any game where the best player always wins is by default a boring game.


Interesting. However isn't it also a good thing to be able to understand and appreciate why you were defeated. Random events aside it's nice to play a game where kill by kill you were able to realise why you lost or won.

Many times in Halo 2 this is not so. the common phrase of "WTF!!" comes into play far to often thanks to many factors. Weapons that aren't consistant (shotty) as well as weapon imbalances that make the game to much like rock, paper, scissors.

  • 06.18.2006 4:03 AM PDT
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i could only wish i was a playtester :(

  • 06.18.2006 4:25 AM PDT
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There is a way to satisfy everyone and its extremely simple.
Just include the option for players to create their own public servers with their own choice of gametype and weapons. People in the community have been saying it for months and nobody seems to get the message; for some reason there is a stigma surrounding the option to create public servers.
This is completely ridiculous, the option is supported by the majority of video games out there and it makes for a happy audience. People can do as they please, when they please.

  • 06.18.2006 5:12 AM PDT
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I completely agree^^^, I do not see what is so hard about including a Public Server List, Private Custom Games, and a Matchmaking system in Halo 3's multiplayer.

Hopefully Bungie does listen to the fans on this time (because there have been thousands upon thousands of posts/threads about Server Lists in Halo 3/Halo 2), and includes a Server List in Halo 3.

  • 06.18.2006 7:21 PM PDT
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Hey man Don't get involved with these people. Look what you do for a living and be proud of it. You don't need to prove anything you have already done that with Halo 1 and Halo 2 and will do it again with Halo 3. Good Luck and raise your standard.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 2:37 AM PDT
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Yeah, who is gonna be the beta testers if there are gonna be any?

  • 06.19.2006 5:09 AM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Posted by: DEMESTIC
Yeah, who is gonna be the beta testers if there are gonna be any?


Bungie staff [as usual] and Microsoft beta testers I'd imagine.

  • 06.19.2006 6:27 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sir Fragula
Posted by: DEMESTIC
Yeah, who is gonna be the beta testers if there are gonna be any?


Bungie staff [as usual] and Microsoft beta testers I'd imagine.


Yeah i guess your right, i hope they pick the right people for the job though...

  • 06.19.2006 6:28 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Here's a thought. What would it hurt to have a competitive player playtest the game? If the player sees some imbalance issues, you do not have to listen to him/her. But at least some balance issues you might not have caught are known...and you can always ignore them based on your Bungie balance philosophy. But at least you'd have some food for thought to chew on before the game is finished and set in stone.

And when I say playtest, I'm not saying invited to the office for a day to play. I'm talking about a real, honest, meaty playtesting session. Lock the competitive monkey in a room for a week with Halo3, and see what he has to say. Just make sure you budget time for bathroom breaks and possibly a burrito or two. :)

EDIT: To SirFrags, soccer is a failure in this country for the reasons you listed it as a success for the rest of the planet IMO. And if Bungie ever designs Halo3 to the point that Master Chief starts faking injuries and rolls around on the ground crying like a girl, I'm buying a PS3 and breaking my 360.

But if you choose to compare Halo2 to soccer...I guess you could, which is why I believe 2 fails on many levels.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 6:37 AM PDT
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Posted by: Ric_Adbur
No one should ever be afraid of looking stupid, so long as they are making a rational effort to expand their understanding.

Posted by: OksanaBayul
EDIT: To SirFrags, soccer is a failure in this country for the reasons you listed it as a success for the rest of the planet IMO. And if Bungie ever designs Halo3 to the point that Master Chief starts faking injuries and rolls around on the ground crying like a girl, I'm buying a PS3 and breaking my 360.

But if you choose to compare Halo2 to soccer...I guess you could, which is why I believe 2 fails on many levels.

WHA!?!?!?!!? Are you insinuating that in American sports the better team always wins? That simply isn't the case son, the fact that the KC Royals have actually won a few games this season is proof of that. Not to mention all the football pools going around offices every fall, noone would win because everyone would pick the best team, all the way to the superbowl and never be wrong. The soccer (football for those not in the Northern/Western Hemisphere) analogy by Fragula can be applied to Baseball, Basketball, Football and even Tennis (sans the scoring qualification). Why? Because even the best players lose matches, particularly when their opposition does something unexpected.

  • 06.19.2006 6:55 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Darth1Snyder
Posted by: OksanaBayul
EDIT: To SirFrags, soccer is a failure in this country for the reasons you listed it as a success for the rest of the planet IMO. And if Bungie ever designs Halo3 to the point that Master Chief starts faking injuries and rolls around on the ground crying like a girl, I'm buying a PS3 and breaking my 360.

But if you choose to compare Halo2 to soccer...I guess you could, which is why I believe 2 fails on many levels.

WHA!?!?!?!!? Are you insinuating that in American sports the better team always wins? That simply isn't the case son, the fact that the KC Royals have actually won a few games this season is proof of that. Not to mention all the football pools going around offices every fall, noone would win because everyone would pick the best team, all the way to the superbowl and never be wrong. The soccer (football for those not in the Northern/Western Hemisphere) analogy by Fragula can be applied to Baseball, Basketball, Football and even Tennis (sans the scoring qualification). Why? Because even the best players lose matches, particularly when their opposition does something unexpected.


No, of course the better team loses in all of sports all the time. Upsets are going to happen. And they are great when they do. But the field of play is always even at start. In Halo2, you can start with a bad spawn...and the team that's not your equal suddenly has a big advantage for no other reason than luck. Name another sport that penalizes you at start at random.

You can't. That sport does not exist.

And don't call me son, I'm likely old enough to be your father. :)

  • 06.19.2006 7:10 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

O.M.G. I can't believe the number of tired old "I <3 Halo:CE and Halo 2 sucks because..." arguments have popped up here. The quest for perfect balance is both an impossible and fruitless quest. General balance will be there and I'm all for it, but the perfection is unnecessary and unwelcome. Be happy with it the way the creators envision it and have fun. If it all comes down to an aiming contest, and no particular weapon, position, or vehicle gives an advantage, then your perfectly balanced game becomes a boring aiming contest (as Sir Frag so astutely identified).

For a lot of gamers, the fun and excitement comes from random / unexpected happenings. Can you imagine never being outnumbered and/or outgunned in a single player game or campaign? If all FPS campaigns were the model of balance that the vocal minority seem to want, it would be a snore fest (Hey! that zombie jumped through the window and scared the -blam!- out of me! NO FAIR!).

The same principle applies (for me) to multiplayer. If I come back and win a FFA game by chucking a load of grenades across the map or wreaking havok with a tank, some numbskull will undoubtedly complain in the post game lobby that it took no skill to do so. What do I care? It sure was a fun and unexpected win. Next time I could be on the receiving end of said spam grenades... and I'll laugh it off and move on.

Some of you people freak me out with your obsessive need for balance so you can show your "true skill" over XBL. At competitive matches, you can tweak your game however you want so there's no need to worry about that. So it seems the only thing left is the ego stroking victories achieved through Bungie MM. Is that what this is all about?

Note: The notion that you can "aim in the general direction of your target" and win is just ludicrous. ("Do it yourself vs. Do it for you" is one of the biggest exaggerations ever seen on this board)

  • 06.19.2006 7:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Name another sport that penalizes you at start at random.

You can't. That sport does not exist.


Football. (American football.....what do brits call our football anyway?)


That coin toss can mean alot sometimes.





and your analogy of Halo 2 being a sport is just....wow.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 7:24 AM PDT
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Posted by: Ric_Adbur
No one should ever be afraid of looking stupid, so long as they are making a rational effort to expand their understanding.

Posted by: OksanaBayul
In Halo2, you can start with a bad spawn...and the team that's not your equal suddenly has a big advantage for no other reason than luck.

Big (or relatively so...) advantage doesn't = win, and overcoming that advantage isn't so difficult that it outweighs the fun factor. If that were the case, these numbers wouldn't be as great as they are.

Posted by: OksanaBayul
And don't call me son, I'm likely old enough to be your father. :)

So you're 60?

  • 06.19.2006 8:05 AM PDT