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  • Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?
Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: KoinOperatedBoy
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Name another sport that penalizes you at start at random.

You can't. That sport does not exist.


Football. (American football.....what do brits call our football anyway?)


That coin toss can mean alot sometimes.





and your analogy of Halo 2 being a sport is just....wow.


Each football team starts each half with the ball.

Halo2 is a game. Most games start each player on even ground. Name a game that does not. Enlighten me.

  • 06.19.2006 8:05 AM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Each football team starts each half with the ball.

Halo2 is a game. Most games start each player on even ground. Name a game that does not. Enlighten me.



Regardless....starting with the ball you set the pace of the game.


And I know where you were trying to go with the second comment....only it doesn't work. Halo 2 starts each player on even ground.

  • 06.19.2006 8:11 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Darth1Snyder
Posted by: OksanaBayul
In Halo2, you can start with a bad spawn...and the team that's not your equal suddenly has a big advantage for no other reason than luck.

Big (or relatively so...) advantage doesn't = win, and overcoming that advantage isn't so difficult that it outweighs the fun factor. If that were the case, these numbers wouldn't be as great as they are.

Posted by: OksanaBayul
And don't call me son, I'm likely old enough to be your father. :)

So you're 60?


Who wants to play a game where your opponnent starts the game with an advantage? It's simply not fun. I don't like starting with an advantage...because I know those rockets I am holding on Ivory Tower weren't earned...they were given to me by Bungie's spawn system. That is broken. That is why Achronos said they are working to fix it. That is great news.

The argument that "it's not that big an advantage" boggles my mind. I don't want you to start out at a disadvantage...do you want to start out with an advantage? I'm posting to even the playing field...and it's like you people want unfair advantages. It make zero sense and it's weak.

  • 06.19.2006 8:12 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
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Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

My mind is equally boggled as to why such minimal advantages matter much. Less than 1% of all the Halo games I've ever played had a guy who dominated the entire game just because he/she spawned near the rockets or any other weapon. In the rare cases that it happens (usually with a sniper), the perveyor of Rocket and/or sniper death is a breed apart as far as Halo2 "skill" goes and he deserved to kick the -blam!- out of us. The other domination scenario is when a team puts together a good strategy and executes it. Effectively preventing access to power weapons. Again, they deserved to win due to their superior strategy and execution. Nothing wrong with that.

Bottom line is, skill and strategy still win games. In CE, in H2, and probably in H3. It's not broken.

  • 06.19.2006 8:20 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: KoinOperatedBoy
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Each football team starts each half with the ball.

Halo2 is a game. Most games start each player on even ground. Name a game that does not. Enlighten me.



Regardless....starting with the ball you set the pace of the game.


And I know where you were trying to go with the second comment....only it doesn't work. Halo 2 starts each player on even ground.


Achronos has acquiesced that there are inequities with the spawn system with relation to power weapons in this very thread. Read the thread...and then tell me Halo2 starts each player on even ground.

You are the stereotypical average player that should not be called on to playtest games. I mean no offense, but you simply do not understand how the game works enough to make reasonable judgements. This proves the theory that experienced players with a better knowledge of the games should get a crack at Halo3 for balance testing. The average player just does not see certain things...and there is nothing wrong with that, but they should stay out of the playtesting threads, and stick to the l"et's have some fun" threads. And there is nothing wrong with that at all.

  • 06.19.2006 8:21 AM PDT

Posted by: KoinOperatedBoy
And I know where you were trying to go with the second comment....only it doesn't work. Halo 2 starts each player on even ground.


I agree with that. Apart from the '2'.

  • 06.19.2006 8:23 AM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Posted by: KoinOperatedBoy
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Name another sport that penalizes you at start at random.

You can't. That sport does not exist.


Football. (American football.....what do brits call our football anyway?)

That coin toss can mean alot sometimes.


We call it American Football, though I've always thought it should be known as American Rugby.

But regardless I was only using the sport reference - in particular the study I'd read explaining Football's global popularity - to highlight a point with regard to the popularity of Halo 1 and 2's multiplayer. Don't go off on a sport tangent.

  • 06.19.2006 8:24 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Wiltron
My mind is equally boggled as to why such minimal advantages matter much. Less than 1% of all the Halo games I've ever played had a guy who dominated the entire game just because he/she spawned near the rockets or any other weapon. In the rare cases that it happens (usually with a sniper), the perveyor of Rocket and/or sniper death is a breed apart as far as Halo2 "skill" goes and he deserved to kick the -blam!- out of us. The other domination scenario is when a team puts together a good strategy and executes it. Effectively preventing access to power weapons. Again, they deserved to win due to their superior strategy and execution. Nothing wrong with that.

Bottom line is, skill and strategy still win games. In CE, in H2, and probably in H3. It's not broken.


Why would you want to have or be exposed to inequites to start a game ever? It defies all logic. I want you to feel like it's a fair game, shouldn't you want the same thing?

  • 06.19.2006 8:24 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Sir Fragula
Posted by: KoinOperatedBoy
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Name another sport that penalizes you at start at random.

You can't. That sport does not exist.


Football. (American football.....what do brits call our football anyway?)

That coin toss can mean alot sometimes.


We call it American Football, though I've always thought it should be known as American Rugby.

But regardless I was only using the sport reference - in particular the study I'd read explaining Football's global popularity - to highlight a point with regard to the popularity of Halo 1 and 2's multiplayer. Don't go off on a sport tangent.


Hey, you brought it up, and this is a discussion...but I'm happy to not go on a sports tangent if you please. :)

  • 06.19.2006 8:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Achronos has acquiesced that there are inequities with the spawn system with relation to power weapons in this very thread. Read the thread...and then tell me Halo2 starts each player on even ground.



Each player starts with an SMG and 2 grenades....The second the game starts it's even.

Now based on your recent posts the question becomes this. Are you more intrested in weapon "balance", spawn "balance" or something all togeather different. Seeing as how general balance is a ambiguous term that's unatainable I think you need to rethink your current argument.



Posted by: OksanaBayul
Why would you want to have or be exposed to inequites to start a game ever? It defies all logic. I want you to feel like it's a fair game, shouldn't you want the same thing?


Because chaos is fun....rhythmic gameplay is boring.



oh and Mr. Fragula thanks for clearing that up....I always wondered about that in the back of my head.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 8:26 AM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Posted by: OksanaBayul
You are the stereotypical average player that should not be called on to playtest games. I mean no offense, but you simply do not understand how the game works enough to make reasonable judgements. This proves the theory that experienced players with a better knowledge of the games should get a crack at Halo3 for balance testing. The average player just does not see certain things...and there is nothing wrong with that, but they should stay out of the playtesting threads, and stick to the l"et's have some fun" threads. And there is nothing wrong with that at all.


That's never going to happen. Halo is not marketted exclussively at you so called "experienced players". Bungie makes the game Bungie wants first and foremost. If you think that's arogant, then whatever, but that's the way good games are made. Beyond that they'll make a game they feel is fun for the vast majority of people, not some small self described élite.

  • 06.19.2006 8:27 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

"My best friend is an average player ... not that there's anything wrong with that." ;)


I enter these threads knowing full well that no minds will be changed.

At the same time, the thread requires some "balance". The fact of the matter is, Pro gamers are as biased as new players and mediocre players, and my grandmas fun loving uncle. Everyone wants something different from the game. It's Bungies job to satisfy as many of us as possible. I guess, no group is more qualified than the other to determine what the game should be like. It's up to Bungie to take into account the needs of all groups and develop the game accordingly. To exclude any one of us entirely would be a mistake and I'm sure it won't happen. They'll choose a good representative sample from each group to test.

I think the difference will be that those of us that play for fun will have fun, and those seeking that "perfect game" will nitpick it to death by day and play the -blam!- out of it by night.

  • 06.19.2006 8:34 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

Posted by: OksanaBayul
...Why would you want to have or be exposed to inequites to start a game ever? It defies all logic. I want you to feel like it's a fair game, shouldn't you want the same thing?


Right. So, it looks like what we'll need is symetrical maps. Preferably with exactly the same cover options and weapon spawns ... a big square with a rectangle block for cover and everyone spawns with every weapon, perhaps?

I feel like each game IS fair enough. You, on the other hand, feel like you're being cheated in some way. Like I said, minds will not be changed here.

  • 06.19.2006 8:40 AM PDT

Posted by: Sir Fragula
Because there are so many tired old arguments being relived here, I will [instead of continuing them] try to codify some partially tangential thoughts I've had on the matter.


Someone wrote that Halo shouldn't be like "Candyland" and that if he is the better player he should always win.

Let me refer to the game of Football. Many have wondered why "the beautiful game" has for so long been the game of choice for most peoples on the Earth. Ninety minutes of 22 players manoeuvring a ball about a pitch hoping to put it in the back of the opposition's goal. What makes Football more popular than Rugby, Cricket, Baseball or American Football? An interesting study [the title and author of which I cannot remember] concluded that it was a combination of the fact that Football is a low-scoring game where every goal is highly valued, and the fact that in Football, the better side does not always win and indeed can often be defeated by random events and the efforts of a technically lesser team.

Football is the global sport because it is not predictable; because it rejects the mechanistic dynamic that other games seem to be based upon.

Now, is this lack of predictability not a factor in Halo's success? My experiences with Halo 1 and 2 certainly compel me to think so. I remember getting the Active Camouflage on Sidewinder and flying a ghost off the cliffs near the enemy base, disembarking halfway to the ground and killing an entire base of far better players who were distracted by my pilot-less ghost. I recall being slaughtered in Slayer matches by players who I'd normally eat for breakfast. The same applies in Halo 2.

Any game where the best player always wins is by default a boring game.


Woa, Woa, Woa, Woa, Woa, WOA!!!!

Hold the eph on. The team that playes worse than the other team will lose every time. Please give me ONE example where random lucky events decided the game. If one team plays better than another team, they will win because they played that game better, not because of random events. Soccer is so popular because tons of people play it, not because its a lucky game, trust me, no Pro sport is based on lucky events; it simply wouldnt work. If one team who hasnt done as well in the past beats a team that has done very well in the past, its most certainly NOT due to luck, its because one team outplayed the other, irregardless of past history. Thats why the game is so popular, because on any given day, one team could have a breakout game and beat the other, NOT because of random luck.

Halo 2 is decided too many times by lucky events and circumstantial happenings, not skill.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 8:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Each football team starts each half with the ball.

Halo2 is a game. Most games start each player on even ground. Name a game that does not. Enlighten me.


No, it's not fair, it's not even ground. You know why? Because it's a video game. It's a game that isn't intended to be taken to a professional level yet some pasty faced nerds who have skinny chicken legs and pimply faces and who's faces are daily acquainted with toilet water from being given a swirly have taken it to a fake "pro" level in an attempt to hide the fact that they are not atheltic enough to make the football, basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, ect. team and the fact that they are too stupid to participate in any intellectual group like mathatletes, glee club, drama, ect. ect. ect.

In fact, calling them nerds is an insult to nerds, so henceforth they shall be known as losers.

  • 06.19.2006 8:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: Caer Bannog
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Each football team starts each half with the ball.

Halo2 is a game. Most games start each player on even ground. Name a game that does not. Enlighten me.


No, it's not fair, it's not even ground. You know why? Because it's a video game. It's a game that isn't intended to be taken to a professional level yet some pasty faced nerds who have skinny chicken legs and pimply faces and who's faces are daily acquainted with toilet water from being given a swirly have taken it to a fake "pro" level in an attempt to hide the fact that they are not atheltic enough to make the football, basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, ect. team and the fact that they are too stupid to participate in any intellectual group like mathatletes, glee club, drama, ect. ect. ect.

In fact, calling them nerds is an insult to nerds, so henceforth they shall be known as losers.



What about all the real losers out there? That'd be an insult to them.

  • 06.19.2006 8:58 AM PDT

I've got no idea why people are getting so offended by the idea that Halo 3 should have an underlying balance. It's hardly going to prevent a fun and chaotic style of play. They are just being contrary because a lot of the people who call for balance are arrogant -blam!-.

  • 06.19.2006 8:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: RhythmKiller
I've got no idea why people are getting so offended by the idea that Halo 3 should have an underlying balance. It's hardly going to prevent a fun and chaotic style of play. They are just being contrary because a lot of the people who call for balance are arrogant -blam!-.


Well saddly the MLG(most of them...I will admit some are ok) people here have proven themselves to be elitest asses to the point where the casual players have gotten tired of them telling us how we should play the game.

  • 06.19.2006 9:00 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

Posted by: TheBigShow
... Halo 2 is decided too many times by lucky events and circumstantial happenings, not skill.


How often and what single event or circumstance decides an entire game? I think you're overplaying your hand. One lucky spawn is the end of the game? Wraith held by a team on Terminal is the end of the game? If you so outmatch your opponents in skill, I'm sure you can overcome these obstacles. If you give up both snipers and rockets on coag, you deserve to lose.

It's only when the skill levels of each team/player are very close that the advantages of spawns, weapon placement, and vehicles determine the outcome. And even then, the team that takes the best advantage of the inequities will still come out on top.

  • 06.19.2006 9:00 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

Posted by: RhythmKiller
I've got no idea why people are getting so offended by the idea that Halo 3 should have an underlying balance. It's hardly going to prevent a fun and chaotic style of play. They are just being contrary because a lot of the people who call for balance are arrogant -blam!-.


I don't think anyone here is anti-balance. It's the quest for PERFECT balance that runs the risk of sucking the fun out of it. True, there's a bit of anti-arrogant bastard in it for me though. That's not to say that every pro-balance poster is an arrogant bastard. If you're one of them, you know who you are

  • 06.19.2006 9:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: Caer Bannog
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Each football team starts each half with the ball.

Halo2 is a game. Most games start each player on even ground. Name a game that does not. Enlighten me.


No, it's not fair, it's not even ground. You know why? Because it's a video game. It's a game that isn't intended to be taken to a professional level yet some pasty faced nerds who have skinny chicken legs and pimply faces and who's faces are daily acquainted with toilet water from being given a swirly have taken it to a fake "pro" level in an attempt to hide the fact that they are not atheltic enough to make the football, basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, ect. team and the fact that they are too stupid to participate in any intellectual group like mathatletes, glee club, drama, ect. ect. ect.

In fact, calling them nerds is an insult to nerds, so henceforth they shall be known as losers.


Hmm...thats funny, I played soccer, football, baseball, and was a body builder before my injuries, which is why i picked up halo(also was on the debate team). I love the fact it is played at a professional level. So you should speak what you know, not what you heard

  • 06.19.2006 9:09 AM PDT
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No wai!


I invented the internet you know.

  • 06.19.2006 9:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: Usedtabe
Posted by: Caer Bannog
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Each football team starts each half with the ball.

Halo2 is a game. Most games start each player on even ground. Name a game that does not. Enlighten me.


No, it's not fair, it's not even ground. You know why? Because it's a video game. It's a game that isn't intended to be taken to a professional level yet some pasty faced nerds who have skinny chicken legs and pimply faces and who's faces are daily acquainted with toilet water from being given a swirly have taken it to a fake "pro" level in an attempt to hide the fact that they are not atheltic enough to make the football, basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, ect. team and the fact that they are too stupid to participate in any intellectual group like mathatletes, glee club, drama, ect. ect. ect.

In fact, calling them nerds is an insult to nerds, so henceforth they shall be known as losers.


Hmm...thats funny, I played soccer, football, baseball, and was a body builder before my injuries, which is why i picked up halo(also was on the debate team). I love the fact it is played at a professional level. So you should speak what you know, not what you heard


Oh, ok, you were so injured that you couldn't do anything else, THEN you played Halo, correct?

You just proved me right. Thanks.

  • 06.19.2006 9:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: TheBigShow
Woa, Woa, Woa, Woa, Woa, WOA!!!!

Hold the eph on. The team that playes worse than the other team will lose every time. Please give me ONE example where random lucky events decided the game.


Trinidad and Tobago V's England.

As an englishman I have to say that T&T should have won that, Crouch was playing awful and was lucky.

On the subject of playtesting, they really can't listen to the internet for anything. Mob rule doesn't work, no one wants the same thing as another. No group wants the same as another group. Trying to listen to the internet for the right answer is never going to work.

Thats why it takes so long to start a Custom Game usually. No one wants the same gametype as another.

  • 06.19.2006 9:14 AM PDT
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Whats your point. I really hope you're not trying to suggest i'm lying, especially considering i would obviously have pictures to back up my statements...unlike most people on these forums, when i speak, i have my sources ready to back up what i say.

  • 06.19.2006 9:17 AM PDT