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  • Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?
Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?

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You know what else is a reward for someone who practices the game? Modding. So is standby. Do you consider these legit?

Reward? Who put a 'reward' in Halo 2 (which is actually cheating) so that people who "practice" a lot, will get better?

Some people have such warped logic..it's not even funny.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 11:38 PM PDT
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How is cheating a reward for someone who practices H2? Until you can answer this, don't speak to me.

  • 06.19.2006 11:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
Posted by: Darth1Snyder
Posted by: ToXSicK II
It is true that MLG is doing more for the gaming industry then Bungie alone could ever do.

Really? What games did MLG release? Oh.. that's right... they simply comb through the MP options of already existing games for a watered down version of the original. Gaming was popular before MLG, an will be popular after MLG. All I see this acronym doing is making more elitist jackholes for casuals to behold on XBL and in the forums.

You make me happy.
and you make me happy.

  • 06.19.2006 11:40 PM PDT
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I haven't paticipated in this discussion yet, and I've only read a few pages. But I have to say this thread makes for a pretty interestng discussion.

  • 06.19.2006 11:42 PM PDT
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Then contribute.

BTW Toni, have you given me an answer as to why cheating is a reward for those who practice H2? No? Ok.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 11:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Ric_Adbur
No one should ever be afraid of looking stupid, so long as they are making a rational effort to expand their understanding.

Posted by: ToXSicK II
You DO realize that BXR is a reward for people who actually practice the game, don't you? Just because you are to lazy to get better and have to expand your knowledge of the game, you call it cheating.

I can now see why Alex Seropian left. Bungie is going from bad to worse. I feel sorry for the kiddies that are jumping on the Halo bandwagon as soon as H3 comes around.

This is called denial. When faced with Bungie's statement that exploiting glitches in MM is cheating, he then draws a conclusion that SEropian left because Bungie wasn't "skilled". Then promptly disrespects people who will play Halo 3. This is the purest example of elitism this jackhole could possibly portray.

On topic: WHo is playtesting Halo 3? Why, the professionals of course. You know, people who actually know their way around a development environment. End users are that... end users.

Posted by: Darth1Snyder
I highly doubt there will ever be a perfect balance, unless the game has only one weapon... Maybe a 4-5 shot M6D and either completely empty circular maps or perfectly symmetrical laser tag style arenas.

I am sure that Bungie operates similar to other devs... [From 3DRealms...
Game / Senior Designer
Management Skills

* You need experience managing people.
* You need to play levels daily and make notes on them to direct level designers.
* You need to have a technical mind and critical thinking skills, so that you can understand technology constraints, limits and compromises.

And From Bungie...
Senior Designer
* Several years of game design experience including experience as a lead/senior designer on AAA games.
* Intuition and understanding of how to create exceptionally fun game play experiences.
* Outstanding oral and written communication skills.
* Ability to communicate effectively with designers, artists, programmers, musicians, testers and producers.
* Fantastic people and leadership skills.
* Dedication to contributing to a positive work environment.
* Passion for playing and making games.
* Unrelenting self-motivation and initiative.
* Thorough understanding of game engines, technology and the game development process.

It would seem to me that the programmers playtest, then send their drafts to the Senior Designer who playtests and gives final word. It also seems to make sense that the playtesters should be those who are capable of writing the code, understand the games engines, etc. It is very arrogant that the self proclaimed "pros" think they know more about the game than those who wrote it. Bungie knows Halo's CE, 2, and 3 inside and out. Let those in the know playtest, and let the consumer decide if the end result is good or not. When I say consumer, I'm not talking about the vocal forum purist minority who label themselves professional gamers who can't stop playing what they proclaim to hate. I'm talking about the consumers who keep the game alive.

  • 06.19.2006 11:45 PM PDT
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And this is brought back to the fact that the majority of people who play H2 play it for fun. Am I wrong? So do not expect H3 to be very competitive.

Again, if you think that you have valid points to make opposing my opinions please PM me.

[Edited on 6/19/2006]

  • 06.19.2006 11:46 PM PDT

Posted by: bayareaboss510
One game I'm not joking a little like 7 year old said and I quote " tell me what your dick looks like so I can imagine it in my head and beat off to it"


Posted by: TheColdWolf
If Team Swat became ranked, would there still be no shields?


Amazing!

MLG wouldn't be as big without Bungie... cause, you know, there would be no Halo.

  • 06.20.2006 12:21 AM PDT
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That is the point that many of you are missing. MLG is not big JUST because of H2. MLG is revolutionizing MP gaming as a WHOLE. After MLG is done with H3 they will move on to a more competitive game and you guys will be left in the dust.

/2 cents.

  • 06.20.2006 12:23 AM PDT
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Posted by: ToXSicK II
Remember, this is not an MLG vs Bungie thread. It is true that MLG is doing more for the gaming industry then Bungie alone could ever do. Maybe this will inspire them to look more into cometitive gaming.


Are you high? All MLG has done is further the stereotype of the gamer as a geek who takes a game too seriously. I remember it turned Zanzibar into even more of a trash zone with hundreds of 'OMG BUNGIE GIVE US OUR OWN PLAYLIST BECAUSE NO RADAR MAKES US BETTER THAN EVERYONE LOL!!1!1!!!!1!!' threads. The idea of skill in video games has been distorted. What FPS ammounts to is clicking on a moving icon. It's just like me saying I can click on my internet explorer icon faster than you.

[Edited on 6/20/2006]

  • 06.20.2006 12:54 AM PDT
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I will not even lower myself down to your level. It's your bedtime.

  • 06.20.2006 1:03 AM PDT
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Posted by: ToXSicK II
I will not even lower myself down to your level. It's your bedtime.
why not toxsick? Hehas made a good point. Not everyone likes MLG, or MLG game settngs. It changes the game from being a fun thing to do in your spare time, to something people take way too seriously.

  • 06.20.2006 1:36 AM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

I would say that Bungie has done more for the gaming industry than MLG has. Indirectly, yes, but it has.

Bungie gave us Halo, which, on it's own, is great, but it made the Xbox successful. The Xbox gave us Xbox Live. MLG wasn't even all that big until it hit Halo 2. Sure, it may have had a lot of members, and it's in many other games on other consoles, but Halo 2 is where it got really big.

MLG isn't revolutionizing MP gaming. Wow, MP games on TV! How extraordinary! Games are becoming much more mainstream anyway, and would have done so even without MLG. It wouldn't have been long until game tournaments would be televised. You think MLG came up with the idea of putting games on TV? Please.

I won't offer my opinions of MLG and its advocates, as it would cause more flaming.

  • 06.20.2006 2:21 AM PDT

You are all pathetic. How both groups can sit here saying that the other has no right to say what makes a game good is beyond me.

To the casual gamers - People who play games for a living, play them to destruction. It may well be that the style of play that evolves from their competitive ambitions is dry, one-dimensional, and generally not your idea of fun. But some of these people have figured out everything there is to figure out with these games. They are the ones who find glitches, they are the ones who will find exploits, tactics, loopholes, tricks, strategies. They will find how to get an unfair advantage that others might miss. Because they play more than you, and they play seriously. They spend more time analysing the game, it is obvious they will learn things you might not. To say that this kind of person has no value in playtesting is preposterous. It is borne of a selfish desire to have this game tailor made for you alone, at the expense of valuable insight into it's fundemental mechanics.

To the serious gamers - You didn't make Halo big, and you didn't make Halo 2 big. You are not game developers, and you are not the average fan. Your idea of fun is not only not equal to everyone's idea of fun, it's rejected by the majority. The arrogance I see displayed sometimes is ill-deserved; this, gaming, is a medium devoted to fun. You can abuse casual players all you want, you can call people noobs, garbage, bad kids, but who listens to you when they're running round having a blast with their two SMGs? Who cares what you think? So realize that please before you state some kind of natural authority about this game over these people, and that simply because you have taken the time to dissect the game means you know all aspects of it better - you don't, because you discard most of it. Once again, I see a selfish desire to have this game tailor made for you alone, at the expense of valuable insight into what people actually want from a game.

  • 06.20.2006 4:53 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

Posted by: ToXSicK II
That is the point that many of you are missing. MLG is not big JUST because of H2. MLG is revolutionizing MP gaming as a WHOLE. After MLG is done with H3 they will move on to a more competitive game and you guys will be left in the dust.

/2 cents.


The MLG love in this thread is overwhelming. Here's a fact:

If MLG dropped off the face of the planet tomorrow, Bungie would still produce great games, Microsoft would still make money, and the gaming industry would continue to bask in the glory of those who play games as a hobby. MLG is a niche and it always will be. Take a step back from your tiny microcosm and you'll realize that the majority of people on the planet don't even know what it stands for.

I have no problem with the MLG configuring any Bungie game to enhance the competitiveness of it for their tournaments (they're called custom games). However, it wouldn't make sense for Bungie to limit the game options for the sake of competition (which might happen if the tester were strictly MLG). I think there should be a representative sample from every category. If there were 100 testers, I'd figure there should be 1 or 2 "pros" in there to offer their opinions alongside the 70 average gamers, 10 soccer-moms, 10 grandparents and 8 underaged kids who aren't supposed to be playing the game anyway (all whimsical estimations, obviously).

Edit for Rhythm: I never said the "pros" should be excluded entirely, though I'll readily admit that the arrogance and elitism displayed by some of the "MLG Representatives" here makes me think they'd have to be a handpicked bunch. For me, it's the attitude that causes the clashes on the forums (and on XBL in some cases).

[Edited on 6/20/2006]

  • 06.20.2006 7:46 AM PDT
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Posted by: RhythmKiller
You are all pathetic. How both groups can sit here saying that the other has no right to say what makes a game good is beyond me.


I, for one, never said that. I said skill level (beyond a certain basic level) is irrelevant to that person's abilities as a playtester. Far more important are their powers of observation and their curiosity to try different things in the game.

Just because someone is excellent at playing a game doesn't mean that they're good at analysing the game. It requires a different set of skills.

  • 06.20.2006 7:58 AM PDT
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It would be a disaster if they made the game balanced, but inaccessible to the average Joe.


This is exactly what happened with Unreal Tournament 2004 and Unreal Championship II. The average Joe has almost zero chance of even scoring a single kill against an experienced player, which is why Epic is returning to the things that made Unreal Tournament 99 fun for all.

I think probably the best way to playtest Halo 3 would be to release a multiplayer only Xbox live demo with three maps several months before Point of No Return via OXM magazine or something like that.

This allows you to collect priceless feedback and data from your actual target market, rather than self appointed "Internet Experts" to use Achronos's term, or simply whoever screams the loudest on the forums.

Going back to UCII as an example where this is exactly what they did, it quickly became apparent from the demo that the sniper rifle no scope was far far too powerfull, so for the full version of the game the SR no scope shot got nerfed into a far less accurate "burst".


  • 06.20.2006 8:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: a Grunt
I think probably the best way to playtest Halo 3 would be to release a multiplayer only Xbox live demo with three maps several months before Point of No Return via OXM magazine or something like that.


It would be the best way...but yeah, you know that's not going to happen.

  • 06.20.2006 8:16 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Woah woah woah...it's now considered cheating to BXB or BXR? I never heard of this one.

How is it my fault it's been discovered you can BXB to speed up melees?

I can understand how superjumping is cheating since it can break/ruin a game if someone say, superjumps with the ball to an out of reach spot on the map. But superjumping requires much of the player and everyone cannot perform them. I have never been able to figure out how to do it.

ANYONE can hit B then X then B again. How is this the fault of the gamer that Bungie's game allows for quicker melees? How is this cheating. It's so simple, it's just button presses.

It's like saying you can't throw a fireball in Street Fighter since it requires button combos and provides an advantageous ball of fire to fly across the room.

ANYONE CAN PERFORM A BUTTON COMBO! Good grief Tom, can you please explain the reasoning behind this one? Again, I get how superbouncing is cheating, but BXB?

BXB is just what I do, I don't even think about it. It's become second nature...now I'm cheating? This cannot be.

  • 06.20.2006 8:27 AM PDT
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Yeah it's a glitch.

Glitch = Cheating*

You = Cheater*



* = On Xbox Live anyway

[Edited on 6/20/2006]

  • 06.20.2006 8:31 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

CHEATIN' WITCH! BURN HER!!!!11

Honestly, I've never bothered to try BXB, BXR, or BLT .... and I've never considered it a problem for me on the receiving end.

  • 06.20.2006 8:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: PREDAT0R
It would be very wise for Bungie to hire at least a few professional Halo/Halo2 gamers with no bias towards the average gamer population to help with balance.


Wow only a few responses into this thread and i already have to say you my friend are on crack. It is the average gamer population that has made Halo 2 the game it is.


Anyway.......I think there will be a good mix of testers...from pro gamers to average gamers to industry proffessionals and programmers among others. It would be unwise not to. You want to make sure the average gamer is happy. You want to make sure the levels are programmed properly so there are few if any glitches and you want to make sure it is up and above the industry standarts.......now that I think about it you don't need pro gamers for this test....because all they are are average gamers who are better at a game than some else.

[Edited on 6/20/2006]

  • 06.20.2006 8:40 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: KoinOperatedBoy
Yeah it's a glitch.

Glitch = Cheating*

You = Cheater*



* = On Xbox Live anyway


Wow, I guess I am. This is unbelievable. So it's now my fault that Bungie has a glitchy game. I guess I'm guilty. This is preposterous. You need to rethink your cheating philosphy Bungie...you made the game...the gamers just know what can be done with it.

Is it also cheating to crouch jump up to sword platform on Midship? I crouch jump all the time to hard to reach spaces...is this cheating? Crouch jumping is glitchy...every player that starts the game has to learn how to get to hard to reach places...OH NO! I guess when I manage to crouch jump to the top of Pink on Midship I'm cheating. Is slide jumping a glitch? Is edge jumping cheating? Is coming up base lift and dropping the ball and batting it up Pink ramp on Midship cheating? That's glitchy too. Damn near everything is glitchy.

Super jumping is one thing. Button combos are quite another. Rethink your stance Tom, it's your game build.








[Edited on 6/20/2006]

  • 06.20.2006 8:53 AM PDT