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  • Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?
Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?
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Posted by: darkhart
Posted by: death incarneate
BUNGIE KNOWS BEST




stop complaining


what about the Arbitiier????

'the hell is the "Arbitiier"?

  • 06.14.2006 1:15 PM PDT
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Okay, well, let's just be stupid and criticize the way the the owner of these forums posts...

no it's one of the perks of free speach you can say what ever you like and think what ever you like. it's only if u act on these feelings then i becomes illigal (trust me i know from experiance)

  • 06.14.2006 1:16 PM PDT

Posted by: Stryker1138
Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Spartan2010

This man is a genius. The pro-MLG people make me sick to my stomach, with all of their little BXR and BXB and RXR and whatever-X-whatevers.

I think that the pros have way too much of an influence over the gaming community, because they think that because they are so much better than us because they are divorced, they work at the local Mickey D's, and they sit on their couches all day long playing this game, doesn't mean that they can dictate what is "fair" in their eyes, because "fair" to them is a completely balanced map, no radars, no duel-wields, and nothing but Battle Rifles. I think those of us who play this for fun and actually have LIVES think fair is different.

Nuff said.


You shouldnt post about things which you obviously know nothing about. And NO, I am not associated with MLG, I dont even play Halo 2 anymore.

The problem is not that they have too much influence over the community, its that they have too little.


How do you figure that one? Video games are made to be fun for the common people, not to cater to the wishes of "professionals."


A good game will be fun for the common people while still retaining the competitive skill that I feel is lacking from Halo 2. The "common people" dont know what makes a game balanced or skillful, so they wont be able to tell the difference anyway. Take Halo 1 for example (I just posted this on the 3rd page), it was skill based and your "common person" enjoyed it a lot, why do you think Halo 2 sold so well?

  • 06.14.2006 1:17 PM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Oh he'll be ok. Relax. We disagree, we jabbed at each other a wee bit, it's really no big deal.

Back to topic: When testing for balance issues on maps, do you guys think about starting spawns with relation to power weapons more this go round? Is this a standard practice when coming up with the new spawn system.

Distance to the power weapons at starting spawn and balance has to be a tough design issue, because the spawn system is tricky business. Can you make a starting spawn that spawn players equidistant, but genreates randoms spawns thereafter?

  • 06.14.2006 1:20 PM PDT
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They should make a game for all the video game pros to show off their aim and ability to be in the right place at the right time for a good ambush, maybe a game that issues rewards for being the best player and has consequences for the losers.

They could call the game "The Military". I suggest all you MLG enthusiasts who keep bragging about your aim, griping about others who don't have your "skill", and insisting a game made for fun should be taken so seriously should enlist.



http://www.goarmy.com

[Edited on 6/14/2006]

  • 06.14.2006 1:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: darkhart
Okay, well, let's just be stupid and criticize the way the the owner of these forums posts...

no it's one of the perks of free speach you can say what ever you like and think what ever you like. it's only if u act on these feelings then i becomes illigal (trust me i know from experiance)

This is the internet, more specifically, Bungie's forums. Which Achronos owns and controls. He is, essentially, god here. He could ban you, shut down the forums at any time, etc. Basically, you follow his rules, or you find another forum. Easy enough choice. You can't say whatever you want here, and get away from it.

Oh, yeah...if you can't spell "illegal", or "experience" how could I possibly trust you?

  • 06.14.2006 1:23 PM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: darkhart
Okay, well, let's just be stupid and criticize the way the the owner of these forums posts...

no it's one of the perks of free speach you can say what ever you like and think what ever you like. it's only if u act on these feelings then i becomes illigal (trust me i know from experiance)


Thanks for your support but it differs a bit on the Bungie board. You can't just say whatever you want...there are limits. It's their board after all. I have no problem with this. The alternative would be disasterous.

  • 06.14.2006 1:24 PM PDT

Those without swords can still die upon them.

Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Stryker1138
Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Spartan2010

This man is a genius. The pro-MLG people make me sick to my stomach, with all of their little BXR and BXB and RXR and whatever-X-whatevers.

I think that the pros have way too much of an influence over the gaming community, because they think that because they are so much better than us because they are divorced, they work at the local Mickey D's, and they sit on their couches all day long playing this game, doesn't mean that they can dictate what is "fair" in their eyes, because "fair" to them is a completely balanced map, no radars, no duel-wields, and nothing but Battle Rifles. I think those of us who play this for fun and actually have LIVES think fair is different.

Nuff said.


You shouldnt post about things which you obviously know nothing about. And NO, I am not associated with MLG, I dont even play Halo 2 anymore.

The problem is not that they have too much influence over the community, its that they have too little.


How do you figure that one? Video games are made to be fun for the common people, not to cater to the wishes of "professionals."


A good game will be fun for the common people while still retaining the competitive skill that I feel is lacking from Halo 2. The "common people" dont know what makes a game balanced or skillful, so they wont be able to tell the difference anyway. Take Halo 1 for example (I just posted this on the 3rd page), it was skill based and your "common person" enjoyed it a lot, why do you think Halo 2 sold so well?


Normal people aren't necessarily bad at Halo. Whoever said that? Granted they're probably not as good as these "professionals," but it's not like we're all a bunch of noobs here. My point was the pros focus on only how improve their killcount and how to maximize advantages certain maps, weapons, or button combos may offer. The vast majority of Halo's fanbase is made up of people who just want to have fun and enjoy the experience of playing the game.

  • 06.14.2006 1:27 PM PDT

Posted by: Caer Bannog
They should make a game for all the video game pros to show off their aim and ability to be in the right place at the right time for a good ambush, maybe a game that issues rewards for being the best player and has consequences for the losers.

They could call the game "The Military". I suggest all you MLG enthusiasts who keep bragging about your aim, griping about others who don't have your "skill", and insisting a game made for fun should be taken so seriously should enlist.



http://www.goarmy.com


Once again, an uninformed Bungie.net forum goer blindly lashes out at MLG in an attempt to make an ill-thought-out point. You do realize that MLG supports Bungie and visa-versa? This isnt an MLG vs Halo thing, in fact, MLG uses Halo 2 as their main title! AMAZING!!!

Most MLG players are just as uniformed as you are though, so dont feel too bad. There are certain things that can be done to the game to make it more enjoyable overall for the majority of people, both the "hardcore" fans and the "common" gamer.

  • 06.14.2006 1:29 PM PDT

Posted by: Stryker1138
The vast majority of Halo's fanbase is made up of people who just want to have fun and enjoy the experience of playing the game.


EXACTLY!!!! Thats my point. They will play the game regardless of who its tailored too; they wont know the difference or care if they did. Why shouldnt the game be made more balanced and skill based? It will make the "hardcore" crowd happy and the common gamers will still play the game and have fun. What makes you think a more balanced, skillfull game is not fun?

  • 06.14.2006 1:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Caer Bannog
They should make a game for all the video game pros to show off their aim and ability to be in the right place at the right time for a good ambush, maybe a game that issues rewards for being the best player and has consequences for the losers.

They could call the game "The Military". I suggest all you MLG enthusiasts who keep bragging about your aim, griping about others who don't have your "skill", and insisting a game made for fun should be taken so seriously should enlist.



http://www.goarmy.com


Once again, an uninformed Bungie.net forum goer blindly lashes out at MLG in an attempt to make an ill-thought-out point. You do realize that MLG supports Bungie and visa-versa? This isnt an MLG vs Halo thing, in fact, MLG uses Halo 2 as their main title! AMAZING!!!

Most MLG players are just as uniformed as you are though, so dont feel too bad. There are certain things that can be done to the game to make it more enjoyable overall for the majority of people, both the "hardcore" fans and the "common" gamer.


I read your post and have concluded you are a coward who does not wish to test his true skills and you have no follow through.

  • 06.14.2006 1:32 PM PDT
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I think the person is trying to say that it is just a game and shouldn't be taken this seriously. Just let Bungie do what they feel they should do with the game and if you don't like it, you can go find another franchise to play.

  • 06.14.2006 1:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Oh he'll be ok. Relax. We disagree, we jabbed at each other a wee bit, it's really no big deal.

Back to topic: When testing for balance issues on maps, do you guys think about starting spawns with relation to power weapons more this go round? Is this a standard practice when coming up with the new spawn system.

Distance to the power weapons at starting spawn and balance has to be a tough design issue, because the spawn system is tricky business. Can you make a starting spawn that spawn players equidistant, but genreates randoms spawns thereafter?


What i always found funny was that in Halo:CE, no matter how close to the power weapons you spawned(or already had), you rarely just "pwned" the entire game. Yet i find now, especially in Beaver Creek, that if you're not holding the Rocket and sniper(or at least 1), your percentage of even coming close to winning drastically decreases. Whereas, in Halo:CE, i don't care what power weapons you had, it could still be a close game.

I don't know if it was spawn points effecting this issue more than weapon balance.

  • 06.14.2006 1:34 PM PDT
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i do agree that Halo should be tested for skill and balance, but it does not need to be taken so seriously. Some of you are acting like it is a life or death situation.

  • 06.14.2006 1:35 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Posted by: darkhart
2 things. 1) you are the "manager" so you are supposed to calm and polite and 2) 'The customer is always right'


I am always calm - I actually don't get angry hardly ever. I am not always polite, because sometimes that doesn't get the point across. And the customer isn't always right - others may behave that way but I hold you guys in higher regard than that. Unfortunately, being honest often means that you can't be nice to everyone. Anyway, good points on the rest of your post, darkhart.

Oh, and to the guy I replied to earlier - I never ban people for having a different opinion than me. I ban for violating the code of conduct (being a jerk, etc.). You weren't really on a course for that. I just felt you were focusing on the wrong things, and said so. Thanks for not taking it the wrong way. Heated discussions are great, so much better than a lot of the other stuff that get's posted on the forums.

  • 06.14.2006 1:35 PM PDT

Posted by: Caer Bannog
I read your post and have concluded you are a coward who does not wish to test his true skills and you have no follow through.


I'm glad you took Achronos' speech about engaging in relevant, progressive dialogue to heart when thinking out that response.

  • 06.14.2006 1:37 PM PDT

Those without swords can still die upon them.

Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Stryker1138
The vast majority of Halo's fanbase is made up of people who just want to have fun and enjoy the experience of playing the game.


EXACTLY!!!! Thats my point. They will play the game regardless of who its tailored too; they wont know the difference or care if they did. Why shouldnt the game be made more balanced and skill based? It will make the "hardcore" crowd happy and the common gamers will still play the game and have fun. What makes you think a more balanced, skillfull game is not fun?


No. If Bungie made this game completely for the hardcore professional players, there's no way it would be as popular. It would simply be a harder and more boring game to play, and people would lose interest. What I've been trying to say is let Bungie to their own thing and make games the way they've been doing them in the past, with some community input but mostly their own ideas.

[Edited on 6/14/2006]

  • 06.14.2006 1:39 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Posted by: darkhart
2 things. 1) you are the "manager" so you are supposed to calm and polite and 2) 'The customer is always right'


I am always calm - I actually don't get angry hardly ever. I am not always polite, because sometimes that doesn't get the point across. And the customer isn't always right - others may behave that way but I hold you guys in higher regard than that. Unfortunately, being honest often means that you can't be nice to everyone. Anyway, good points on the rest of your post, darkhart.

Oh, and to the guy I replied to earlier - I never ban people for having a different opinion than me. I ban for violating the code of conduct (being a jerk, etc.). You weren't really on a course for that. I just felt you were focusing on the wrong things, and said so. Thanks for not taking it the wrong way. Heated discussions are great, so much better than a lot of the other stuff that get's posted on the forums.


I probably need to apologize to you. I was one of the ones who kept the "MLG for testing" forum running by lashing out at what you said in that forum. Now that you cleared up that previous post, i feel quite ignorant. Sorry

  • 06.14.2006 1:40 PM PDT

Posted by: Stryker1138
Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Stryker1138
The vast majority of Halo's fanbase is made up of people who just want to have fun and enjoy the experience of playing the game.


EXACTLY!!!! Thats my point. They will play the game regardless of who its tailored too; they wont know the difference or care if they did. Why shouldnt the game be made more balanced and skill based? It will make the "hardcore" crowd happy and the common gamers will still play the game and have fun. What makes you think a more balanced, skillfull game is not fun?


No. If Bungie made this game completely for the hardcore professional players, there's no way it would be as popular. It would simply be a harder and more boring game to play, and people would lose interest. What I've been trying to say is let Bungie to their own thing and make games the way they've been doing them in the past, with some community input but mostly their own ideas.


Did you play Halo 1? Cause I could have sworn it was pretty popular. In fact, I think Halo 1 is the reason Halo 2 sold so many copies, but I could be wrong....

[Edited on 6/14/2006]

  • 06.14.2006 1:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: Stryker1138
No. If Bungie made this game completely for the hardcore professional players, there's no way it would be as popular. It would simply be a harder and more boring game to play, and people would lose interest. What I've been trying to say is let Bungie to their own thing and make games the way they've been doing them in the past, with some community input but mostly their own ideas.



I'm sorry, does the word "BALANCE" not register? (not a flame, i promise)

I don't think anyone wants the game super hardcore. Maybe just a little more skilled than what it takes to play Halo2. Personally, I got pwned forever and a day before i got good at halo:ce, but i didn't stop playing because it obviously took skill. And I started off playing H2, but CE just felt like the playing field was more equal no matter what weapons you had or where you spawned. Thats all i want to see again, That same chance at winning no matter where i spawn or who has what weapons

  • 06.14.2006 1:44 PM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Achronos
Posted by: darkhart
2 things. 1) you are the "manager" so you are supposed to calm and polite and 2) 'The customer is always right'


I am always calm - I actually don't get angry hardly ever. I am not always polite, because sometimes that doesn't get the point across. And the customer isn't always right - others may behave that way but I hold you guys in higher regard than that. Unfortunately, being honest often means that you can't be nice to everyone. Anyway, good points on the rest of your post, darkhart.

Oh, and to the guy I replied to earlier - I never ban people for having a different opinion than me. I ban for violating the code of conduct (being a jerk, etc.). You weren't really on a course for that. I just felt you were focusing on the wrong things, and said so. Thanks for not taking it the wrong way. Heated discussions are great, so much better than a lot of the other stuff that get's posted on the forums.


No sweat, I didn't take it the wrong way, and you were well within your right to say what you said. You and I will likely never agree on certain things with regard to player preferences and pre-dispositions, and there is nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, I know you care just as much as I do about Halo, so we have that in common.

  • 06.14.2006 1:46 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Yeah - everyone who's worried about my feelings being hurt don't need to worry. I am fully capable of defending myself. I also enjoy a good heated discussion, and as anyone who knows me will attest to, it is very difficult to actually make me angry. Considering some morons have sent death threats after being banned, someone who simply "disagrees" with me is hardly cause for me to get riled up about.

Anyway, as to your question, spawns and weapon balance are a big deal when designing a map (as well as designing a spawn system for both players and weapons). The map designers go through lots of iterations. Don't worry - we know the flaws of the previous efforts better than anyone. We also have the advantage of knowing why the previous iterations were made like they were, which is an important aspect to consider. I know it doesn't really answer much, but I can say we know it is a huge aspect to the games, and we hope to set it up the right way for each map and weapon configuration.

Hopefully in the future when more about multiplayer is public, we can talk about this more. For now, that's about as much detail as I can get into.

Posted by: OksanaBayul
Oh he'll be ok. Relax. We disagree, we jabbed at each other a wee bit, it's really no big deal.

Back to topic: When testing for balance issues on maps, do you guys think about starting spawns with relation to power weapons more this go round? Is this a standard practice when coming up with the new spawn system.

Distance to the power weapons at starting spawn and balance has to be a tough design issue, because the spawn system is tricky business. Can you make a starting spawn that spawn players equidistant, but genreates randoms spawns thereafter?

  • 06.14.2006 1:49 PM PDT

Posted by: Usedtabe
Posted by: Stryker1138
No. If Bungie made this game completely for the hardcore professional players, there's no way it would be as popular. It would simply be a harder and more boring game to play, and people would lose interest. What I've been trying to say is let Bungie to their own thing and make games the way they've been doing them in the past, with some community input but mostly their own ideas.



I'm sorry, does the word "BALANCE" not register? (not a flame, i promise)

I don't think anyone wants the game super hardcore. Maybe just a little more skilled than what it takes to play Halo2. Personally, I got pwned forever and a day before i got good at halo:ce, but i didn't stop playing because it obviously took skill. And I started off playing H2, but CE just felt like the playing field was more equal no matter what weapons you had or where you spawned. Thats all i want to see again, That same chance at winning no matter where i spawn or who has what weapons


Thank God. A forum poster who can read and comprehend! Why do people think that if the game is balanced and skillfull (Halo CE) that it will automatically not be fun for the common gamer to play? Wheres the logic behind that?

  • 06.14.2006 1:50 PM PDT

Posted by: Achronos
Yeah - everyone who's worried about my feelings being hurt don't need to worry. I am fully capable of defending myself. I also enjoy a good heated discussion, and as anyone who knows me will attest to, it is very difficult to actually make me angry. Considering some morons have sent death threats after being banned, someone who simply "disagrees" with me is hardly cause for me to get riled up about.

Anyway, as to your question, spawns and weapon balance are a big deal when designing a map (as well as designing a spawn system for both players and weapons). The map designers go through lots of iterations. Don't worry - we know the flaws of the previous efforts better than anyone. We also have the advantage of knowing why the previous iterations were made like they were, which is an important aspect to consider. I know it doesn't really answer much, but I can say we know it is a huge aspect to the games, and we hope to set it up the right way for each map and weapon configuration.

Hopefully in the future when more about multiplayer is public, we can talk about this more. For now, that's about as much detail as I can get into.



If you can, answer me this....

Are they focusing on weapon balance (or imbalance) as much or more than the spawn system?

  • 06.14.2006 1:52 PM PDT

Those without swords can still die upon them.

Yes, I played Halo 1. And yes it was popular. However, Halo 2 is more popular, not only because of its predecessor, but because it's a genuinely fun game that everyone can enjoy. The sheer volume of games still played on Live to this day is testament to that. I'm not saying it should be unbalanced at all. I do want balance, but I don't want "MLG balance," which consists of the BR, Sniper, and Rocket only.

[Edited on 6/14/2006]

  • 06.14.2006 1:53 PM PDT