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  • Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?
Subject: Who is playtesting Halo3 for balance?

Death by figure skater.

[quote]Posted by: metalmunkey21
And I'll have to disagree with that. Have you ever seen the pros play?? They are quite clearly not having fun, but I do agree that they need some input. It should definitely be a mixed playtest, as should any game. Because everyone's different and likes different things. No I don't think the average gamer would have as much fun if the pros got there way completely but, neither should the average gamer. But, I imagine they have alot of input already from Halo 2 and have alot of the balance issues worked out or done the way they want.[quote]

Balance isn't about the Pros having their way. That's what people are really not getting here. Pros want the fairest game possible, and so should everyone on the planet. Games that lack balance simply aren't fun games.

You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

And no Halo game is going to be perfectly balanced, but 3 can certainly strive to come closer than Halo2. That's what this thread is about. Striving to be better. And if Bungie is going to invite people off the street to playtest, then why not have the people that know what a fair game looks like. Every aspect of a fair game and equal playing field.

I refuse to believe anyone would not want to play a fair game. I've read some crazy talk about FUN > Balance. It boggles my mind. Halo3 is going to be fun no matter what they release. Might as well make it incredibly balanced if they can.

[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 8:46 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

Posted by: OksanaBayul
...
I refuse to believe anyone would not want to play a fair game. I've read some crazy talk about FUN > Balance. It boggles my mind. Halo3 is going to be fun no matter what they release. Might as well make it incredibly balanced if they can.


Crazy like a fox!

Maybe a more accurate representation would be this:

FUN> Perfect Balance

General balance is a given. It's the unnecessary nit-picking that annoys me. For my purposes, Halo2 is balanced just fine and if Bungie produces a brand new game with a similar balance, that's fine with me. If someone wins a game because they got the rockets, or spawn-camped, or got all stabby with the sword, or even had host, no big deal. Better luck next time.

  • 06.15.2006 9:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: Wiltron
If someone wins a game because they got the rockets, or spawn-camped, or got all stabby with the sword, or even had host, no big deal. Better luck next time.
'

BLASPHMY!

  • 06.15.2006 9:03 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Wiltron
Posted by: OksanaBayul
...
I refuse to believe anyone would not want to play a fair game. I've read some crazy talk about FUN > Balance. It boggles my mind. Halo3 is going to be fun no matter what they release. Might as well make it incredibly balanced if they can.


Crazy like a fox!

Maybe a more accurate representation would be this:

FUN> Perfect Balance

General balance is a given. It's the unnecessary nit-picking that annoys me. For my purposes, Halo2 is balanced just fine and if Bungie produces a brand new game with a similar balance, that's fine with me. If someone wins a game because they got the rockets, or spawn-camped, or got all stabby with the sword, or even had host, no big deal. Better luck next time.


For your purposes its fine. But they can design a game that has near perfect balance to suit EVERYONE's purposes. That's the goal. That goal fell short with Halo2. Halo3 has a great shot since Bungie has learned so much since Halo2 was released. I have great confidence they will make a game everyone will embrace...all with the same defaults. I really do. They've pretty much done it before.

  • 06.15.2006 9:06 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
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Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

Posted by: OksanaBayul
... They've pretty much done it before.


Damn, dude! You had me on board until the last line! I may be wrong, but I think that says: "Bring back the CE Pistol and all the other stuff that made Halo 1 better".

Honestly, I'm sure Bungie will do a fine job pleasing the widest possible audience. They'll probably only leave behind Super Mario Cart fans and Halo: CE fanatics (that's not to say they won't incorporate some things from H:CE if they fit with the H3 mechanics).

  • 06.15.2006 9:13 AM PDT

Posted by: VVV

Granted the "casual" gamer is what Bungie may be targeting with Halo 3. It's certainly not unjust to say that the demograpic of the casual gamer was their main (if not only) aim with Halo 2. However I think you're simplifying the whole argument for a more balanced and "Pro" approach.

What has been evident to me in the past 18 months of playing Halo 1,2 and visiting these forums (among others) is that some people still don't get it. What can be offered by investing more time and resources into a more "balanced" game play is something only a few seem to understand.

These benefits are for much more then say as organisation like MLG. What can be gained by a more balanced approach to game play is a longer lasting appeal to a stale and otherwise boring game.

Consider the problem of Halo 2 upon a wide group of players. No matter what their skill level. What has been evident in the past 12 months has been the growing legion of fans that have become bored with a game that lost it's appeal. The beauty of Halo 1 was that it was true to it's title. It evolved. Becoming a game that all players could find a way to play and enjoy no matter what their skill level.

The reasons for this were much greater then "balance" alone but even so the key to much of it's success was simply that at the HIGHER level of play the game came down to skill and simply not chance.

Consider also that from the very onset Halo 1 grew in popularity while Halo 2 from first release only fell. All be it not drastically (due to lack of competition IMO). It's easy for those that have an intimate knowledge and understanding of both games to understand why.

First day sales were staggering for Halo 2. Something like 2.6 millon units. Within 2 months it had sold about 6 millon. In hindsight I think Bungie should be very disappointed that it added only a another million or so copies in the proceeding 18 months. When it's name was traded away all that was left was a sub par FPS.


Greatest post ever? Perhaps.

I have noticed a disturbing trend here. A lot of people seem to think that by balance we mean only using one weapon. That is entirely not true. Balance means finding a point where each weapon is prefered in its element but not overpowering. There is always a chance to kill your enemy if you are skillful enough regardless of your weapon; I found that this is not the case with Halo 2. That doesnt mean only using one weapon, it means using them all, it means MORE variety because each weapon is a viable alternative in any situation (although some are obviously better choices in any given situation) and you wont feel ineffective because of the weapon you are left with.

  • 06.15.2006 9:23 AM PDT
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Um, how many times must a person buy a video game for it to be a success? I mean, once I bought Halo 2 the first time, I didn't think to myself "Hey, this game is so great that I should go out and buy it again."

  • 06.15.2006 9:25 AM PDT
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I would be very happy to playtest H3 it would be an honor but like that would every happen to people like us lol ill just keep dreming hahaha

  • 06.15.2006 9:38 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Considering some morons have sent death threats after being banned, someone who simply "disagrees" with me is hardly cause for me to get riled up about.


I already know what it looked like.
Posted by: Typical Angry Gamer
I -blam!- -blam!--blam!--blam!- kill -blam!--blam!--blam!--blam!--blam!--blam!- -blam!--blam!--blam!--blam!--blam!--blam!- u !11!!!1!!!


[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 9:41 AM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say some people over think this wonderful game we call Halo.

  • 06.15.2006 9:42 AM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
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Pro patria mori.

Posted by: Niall8r
Posted by: Sir Fragula
Some thoughts on Matchmaking and the alternatives.

I've been playing an awful lot of Battlefield 2: Modern Combat on the 360 recently. That game has dedicated servers, with a some servers using map rotation and others using a voting system. Both are broken, in that they produce non-optimal results. The rotating servers are always empty because people don't like the possibility of getting a map they don't know inside out. The voting servers almost ALWAYS without fail play Backstab, Deadly Pass or A Bridge Too Far, because the largest minority can play them in their sleep in order to advance in ranks, and the remaining players are unorganised in their voting.

Just a consideration for those wanting to go down that route...


I agree with you entirely, I think that having a server list of available games creates all sorts of problems that are unnecessary. However, what I was wondering whether the hosting system would perhaps be altered, including dedicated servers, international and continental, or perhaps a ping filter to optimize the matches you're put into.


Well, I do want the option of switching between global and continental matchmaking to make it in. I was arguing right from the start of Halo 2's release how the fundamental 100ms latency between the east coast of the US and the west coast of the EU would make games less fun than they could be. But hey, I'm not working on it and I'm sure they know what they're doing.

[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 9:43 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Wiltron
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say some people over think this wonderful game we call Halo.


HAHA! I don't know about that. It's just a great, entertaining hobby and a fun thing to do with friends all over the country.

I'm an avid golfer. Now that is something I over think. Halo's got nothing on my golf addiction. :) No offense Bungie.

  • 06.15.2006 10:36 AM PDT
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You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

Yeah, but you can't play Chess with nothing but Queens either! I feel that sometimes MLG players want sometihng like that. A 'use in any situation' gun and that's it.

  • 06.15.2006 10:48 AM PDT

Posted by: TYME
You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

Yeah, but you can't play Chess with nothing but Queens either! I feel that sometimes MLG players want sometihng like that. A 'use in any situation' gun and that's it.


Thats not what they want at all, here let me repost this....

I have noticed a disturbing trend here. A lot of people seem to think that by balance we mean only using one weapon. That is entirely not true. Balance means finding a point where each weapon is prefered in its element but not overpowering. There is always a chance to kill your enemy if you are skillful enough regardless of your weapon; I found that this is not the case with Halo 2. That doesnt mean only using one weapon, it means using them all, it means MORE variety because each weapon is a viable alternative in any situation (although some are obviously better choices in any given situation) and you wont feel ineffective because of the weapon you are left with.

  • 06.15.2006 10:51 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: TYME
You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

Yeah, but you can't play Chess with nothing but Queens either! I feel that sometimes MLG players want sometihng like that. A 'use in any situation' gun and that's it.


It seems like that's what MLG wants, but that's just not the case. They still play on maps with Rockets and Snipers and Shotguns and Sword, and use these weapons to great effect. Those weapons are often the focus of the MLG game, but the BR gives you an equal chance at spawn. Just a chance is enough to maintain balance even if you are going up against a guy with the sniper.

That being said, you're never going to see someone charge a Sniper at a distance with a single SMG at an MLG tournament.

Pros want balance for everyone's sake. They want to play fair, that's all.

  • 06.15.2006 11:01 AM PDT
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Posted by: TYME
You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

Yeah, but you can't play Chess with nothing but Queens either!


I see you've never played Chess in a San Francisco coffee house.

  • 06.15.2006 11:03 AM PDT

Death by figure skater.

Posted by: Caer Bannog
Posted by: TYME
You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

Yeah, but you can't play Chess with nothing but Queens either!


I see you've never played Chess in a San Francisco coffee house.


LOL! Do you write for Will & Grace?

  • 06.15.2006 11:07 AM PDT

bump

  • 06.15.2006 12:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Posted by: TYME
You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

Yeah, but you can't play Chess with nothing but Queens either! I feel that sometimes MLG players want sometihng like that. A 'use in any situation' gun and that's it.


It seems like that's what MLG wants, but that's just not the case. They still play on maps with Rockets and Snipers and Shotguns and Sword, and use these weapons to great effect. Those weapons are often the focus of the MLG game, but the BR gives you an equal chance at spawn. Just a chance is enough to maintain balance even if you are going up against a guy with the sniper.

That being said, you're never going to see someone charge a Sniper at a distance with a single SMG at an MLG tournament.

Pros want balance for everyone's sake. They want to play fair, that's all.

Its not really starting out with the same weapon. Its more about what you can do not what the game can do for you a la do it yourself. If people play competitively than they would know about do it yourself. Thats the reason people like H1 over H2 because it is do it yourself. Shooting somebody to the side of their head and the retical is not on them or shooting them in the nuts and still getting a headshot or shots registering is not fun for the better person. Looking in the general direction and hit B and it automatically hits the person for you is not fun. Playing in internet time and getting killed when on your screen you are around the corner and get killed because the other person sees you still in the open. It doesn't give you a reward of "I won because I did it myself" but instead gives you the false reward bacause the game did it for you. When the pros talk about balance and skill they mean for the person to do it themselves and not for the game to do it for them. They want to see what their enemy can do with no help at all. I can understand the slow down on the retical because you are using a controler and not a mouse and keyboard.

  • 06.15.2006 1:56 PM PDT

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An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Someone here puts the girl(s) in MLG.

  • 06.15.2006 1:59 PM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
OR
Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

Posted by: operativeace
Posted by: OksanaBayul
Posted by: TYME
You can't play Chess with one player having two queens. It would break the game.

Yeah, but you can't play Chess with nothing but Queens either! I feel that sometimes MLG players want sometihng like that. A 'use in any situation' gun and that's it.


It seems like that's what MLG wants, but that's just not the case. They still play on maps with Rockets and Snipers and Shotguns and Sword, and use these weapons to great effect. Those weapons are often the focus of the MLG game, but the BR gives you an equal chance at spawn. Just a chance is enough to maintain balance even if you are going up against a guy with the sniper.

That being said, you're never going to see someone charge a Sniper at a distance with a single SMG at an MLG tournament.

Pros want balance for everyone's sake. They want to play fair, that's all.

Its not really starting out with the same weapon. Its more about what you can do not what the game can do for you a la do it yourself. If people play competitively than they would know about do it yourself. Thats the reason people like H1 over H2 because it is do it yourself. Shooting somebody to the side of their head and the retical is not on them or shooting them in the nuts and still getting a headshot or shots registering is not fun for the better person. Looking in the general direction and hit B and it automatically hits the person for you is not fun. Playing in internet time and getting killed when on your screen you are around the corner and get killed because the other person sees you still in the open. It doesn't give you a reward of "I won because I did it myself" but instead gives you the false reward bacause the game did it for you. When the pros talk about balance and skill they mean for the person to do it themselves and not for the game to do it for them. They want to see what their enemy can do with no help at all. I can understand the slow down on the retical because you are using a controler and not a mouse and keyboard.


Nice patronizing post from an MLG jerk. You're so right. Halo2 plays itself. I just kick the controller now and then and rack up the kills..

  • 06.15.2006 2:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: OksanaBayul
Posted by: Wiltron
I believe the preferences of professional gamers matter LESS than the preferences of the "average" gamers. We (the average gamer) are their core audience. The professionals are a small, but vocal, minority. We are their cash cow. It would be a disaster if they made the game balanced, but inaccessible to the average Joe.

FUN>BALANCE


I'd think they'd put a premium on fair and balanced gameplay, no matter what type of gamer one might be.

And true, the casual gamer is the cash cow...but at this stage in the game, Halo3 is going to sell no matter what type of gamer they make it for. THey could make it the most challenging, hardcore game in the history of the FPS industry, and the casual gamers will all buy it regardless. It's a no brainer purchase...so Bungie can make whatever type of game they desire. Let's just hope it's balanced.



My thoughts exactly ...

Whatever direction Bungie goes for .......They WILL sell.

So why not throw some balance in the weapons(obviously im being vague here)........and more cinematics ehehe





[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 2:14 PM PDT
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Two key balancing concepts:

* A player should never be forced in a position where he knows what his opponents will do, but is helpless to stop them.

* Most weapons should be able to do damage outside their optimum range, and it is possible to kill with them, providing you have sufficient skill.

Let's consider number 1.

Basically, a player should always have a chance. They might be at a disadvantage, but they always have a chance. Importantly, they should start off with this chance; if they choose to forgo it for an increased advantage elsewhere, that's their decision. But they should have been in a neutral position.

E.g, say Swapping the Assault Rifle for the Sniper Rifle (with a pistol), meaning you're outclassed at close range, though very powerful at range.



Number 2:

Essentially, weapons rule their respective niches, but it's possible to use them outside their intended ranges to get kills, though they're not as effective. For instance, the shotgun is great at close range, but still useable at medium range, albeit much less effective than at close range.

If every weapon overlaps, and this is done correctly, it's possible to have a starting configuration where the player always has a chance, without giving the player an overly powerful weapon.

The probelm with this in Halo 2 with BR starts, is that due to a combination of factors, the BR is a very powerful weapon at close, medium, and medium long range; more powerful than intended. Consequently, it can dominate other weapons, in the wrong niche.

This was sort of a problem with Halo 1's pistol, though contrary to popular belief, it's much much harder to pull off than many claim. But the general weapons concept balance was there; the player always had a chance. AR/Pistol vs Shotgun. He can win. Vs Sniper Rifle. Again, possible.

Halo 3 needs to have this (it'd also increase the variety since there'd be more weapons that can be used at various ranges).

  • 06.15.2006 2:27 PM PDT

Posted by: Wiltron

Nice patronizing post from an MLG jerk. You're so right. Halo2 plays itself. I just kick the controller now and then and rack up the kills..


Obviously he was exaggerating. You automatically assume hes an "MLG jerk." Tell me, what does it take to be considered "MLG?" Do you have to play with their settings? Visit the site? Go to a tournament? Or is it just because he doesnt like the dumbed down gameplay in Halo 2 so you lash out at what you think is the source, when in fact its not? Do you realize that Bungie and MLG are friends? Ever look at Bungie front page? They have links to MLG all the time and guess what? MLG uses Halo 2 as its flagship game!!! OMG, they arent mortal enemies set against each other.

You seem to think that if someone desires more balance in the game that they are automatically an "MLG jerk." Simply because half a year ago some kids came on here getting all pissy calling themselves "MLG" this and "MLG" that does not mean they represent the majority of MLG players.

Instead of making blind, ignorant generalizations, explain your point of view to the best of your abilities; it will make people respect your opinion a little bit more.

  • 06.15.2006 2:29 PM PDT

It's fun when we win and funny when we lose: Le Mediocrity
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Come take your verbal beating like a man in THE CAVE

*KNOCK, KNOCK* Hellooo, BiggieShow!

Dude, it's in his signature. I'm sure there are plenty of MLG fans that are great guys. He's apparently not one of them. His patronizing tone is obvious and I refuse to spend more than a couple seconds replying to such a post.

...I'm not sure what the point of your "Bungie <3's MLG" rant was about.

[Edited on 6/15/2006]

  • 06.15.2006 2:38 PM PDT