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Subject: Forum Rules Clause #3: Help me understand the grey area

"Once Bungie takes over the world, The Marty Army will take over Bungie and then we'll really have some fun."
-Marty O'Donnell

"Condemnant quod non intellegunt."

Make Bungie.net More Enjoyable: Read & Follow

I've been a regular member on this site for over four years now - I love this community, it's leadership, and it's management; however today I realize that I think I shy away from posting on the main forums more than other people do and I am making this thread so that I can better understand what the proper balance of reserve and "straying" is most proper...

My question derives mostly from the first dictum in the third section of the new forums rules:
- Use common sense. This is a video game developer's website. Keep your posts on-topic and "safe for work". The further you stray the more you'll tempt a ban.

I have never been banned and I am, by nature of my personality, so scared of breaking these rules that I often shy away from threads that might result in genuinely positive community interaction on account of my absolute unwillingness to "stray". Now, I am not critiquing the forum rules at all, I am just asking how I can follow them better.

Take for instance a thread like this. Although a high percentage of the posts in such a thread are one-line links, or simple "that's awesome bro" remarks, verging on spam - it is nevertheless an entertaining and enjoyable thing to read. Reading is only the first step; it is the second level of community interaction of actually posting that I am deterred from, in the case of threads of that nature, by my strict interpretation of the "don't stray" suggestion in the rules.

Examples include replying to off-topic posts, making kind yet non-contributory and trite comments, one-line links to internet memes/images/Youtube videos, etc. I don't partake in any of this, unlike many who go unbanned.

Where exactly the line has been laid between the "straying too far" and the "edgy, but acceptable" is with the personal judgement of forum moderators. Now, being on the site for over four years, I think I've gained a relatively acute estimation of what would pass and what would be risky. But moderators have changed, as have the rules, and I am asking for a way that would help me better understand where this line is drawn so that I can either continue with my strict and Draconian policy of conservative reservation, or so that I can see that I should be more out-going and slightly less restrictive when posting in the main forums.

I suppose some sort of index or list of documented bans would do the job. I understand that there is an impetus to preserve the anonymity of the banned, and therefore, perhaps a list of ban reasons with the rule-breaking text itself (no names) would be very helpful. I don't know if this could be a site feature (unlikely, considering that Achronos is busy with the New Hawtness and that he has stated the traditional system of these forums to be obsolete anyway), or perhaps even a volunteer effort by the mods (who are busy, I know) or the banned. Perhaps as an HFCS resource, perhaps as an addendum to the rules. All I know is that other than word-of-mouth, and other than actually seeing violating posts get retracted, the only place that lists bans and their causes is the Whaambulance group, and the causes for banning in those instances are near-invariably obvious and unrelated to this ambiguous clause in the forum rules about which I am posting.

Thanks everybody!

  • 07.13.2012 11:26 AM PDT

So, are you saying my thread is spam? :'(

  • 07.13.2012 11:33 AM PDT

<3

i do too but im still just a plain member, well i guess ive only been a part for over a year, hahaha
Posted by: paulmarv
I've been a regular member on this site for over four years now - I love this community, it's leadership, and it's management;
Thanks everybody!

  • 07.13.2012 11:35 AM PDT

@spawn031

"So much of what we do is ephemeral and quickly forgotten, even by ourselves, so it's gratifying to have something you have done linger in people's memories." John Williams

That specific clause is written that way to have a "grey area" on purpose. It's up to the judgement of the moderators. If you give members a clear cut line that they cannot cross, they will just tag the "I'm not touching you!" approach.

The way it's currently written, keeps users guessing themselves. They shouldn't know where the exact line is. It's better off to just stay away from the "grey area".

  • 07.13.2012 11:37 AM PDT

Posted by: WolfmanMaverick
You people have just sent my sides into orbit. A bunch of MLG try hards sucking the dick of some supposed pro half the thread hasn't even heard of. Classic.

Use the rule that I do. Just try to fall in the middle somewhere and you should be fine, and still have fun.


Goody Two Shoes<--------------------->impurity

  • 07.13.2012 11:39 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Something tells me this is a girl thread in disguise...

I don´t know why.

  • 07.13.2012 11:49 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

I know you and a lot of other users look for lines rather than gray areas. As you already realized (and already noted in your OP), the rules have been redesigned from a set of bright-line rules to a much shorter set of more intentionally "gray area" rules to allow for fewer loopholes, easier readability, and more use of discretion. I realize this can be frustrating, but as I always say, if you stay completely out of those gray areas, you have nothing to worry about.

So as I understand your post, the question is where does that gray area start in the specific rule you quoted?

For the "safe for work" rule, the general rule of thumb I follow is: if you wouldn't see it or hear it in a PG-13 movie or below, it's not appropriate here. If you want to stay truly safe, don't post or write anything that you wouldn't see or hear in a PG-rated movie or below. The "gray area" is going to begin at stuff that you would only see in R-rated movies.

For the "keep it on topic" rule, I generally look for posts that have the potential to derail threads completely. If a thread starts off talking about cool cars and then morphs into a discussion about car racing, that's not the kind of thing I worry about. But coming into a thread and changing the subject completely is inappropriate (and that includes the "this thread is now about ____" meme). The gray area for this rule begins where a post's relevance to the OP (or an OP's relevance to the forum's subject matter) begins to fade.

The "use common sense" rule is intentionally vague, and doesn't particularly have a gray area. It is meant to cover things that we might only rarely run across or which we might not be able to foresee. "Use common sense" means, in essence, don't break the law, don't be a jerk, and don't do anything to impede normal, reasonable, discussion.

Hope this helps, and hope to see you participating more... Feel free to ask any follow-up questions you may have.... we Forum Ninjas are community members first, moderators second, and the last thing we want to do is be the barrier preventing you from jumping into a discussion that you want to participate in!

  • 07.13.2012 11:52 AM PDT
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If you stay completely out of the grey areas you'll never -blam!- post. The grey areas aren't a product of the rules, the rules themselves are very clear, the grey areas are a product of utterly inconsistent enforcement, with it being a game of russian roullette as to whether you're going to be posting when no moderator is online, or whether you're going to get someone who got out of the wrong side of bed that morning.

Let's take an example of a thread you'd have us believe is in the grey area. For the full context, you've got to understand who lonepaul is and what he posts. In short, he is the Daily Mail's rss feed cc'd over to the flood, and he posts nothing but inflammatory, never far from the borderline drivel. Of course that's his risk to take, and he's been banned for it in the past, so I'm not going to begrudge him his pleasure there.

The problems start at the end.

"Nothing particularly wrong with this thread"

The opening words of the thread are "The German government says". The thread is immediately couched in the context of political, not ethical, discourse. The next words are "Jewish and Muslim communities", throwing in religion for good measure too.

One of the only non-"grey area" parts of the rules is this

- Political or religious discussion is prohibited.

Within eight words, this thread managed to run headlong into both of those banned areas, and it's worth reiterating this is something the author regularly does (but, again, it's something I have no problem with).

And yet, more than two hours and seven pages of inflammatory religious and cack-handed political discussion later that there's "nothing particularly wrong with this thread".

Howay, man.

  • 07.13.2012 12:00 PM PDT

*´¨)---––•(-• Dutchy •-)•–--–-(¨´*
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Posted by: spawn031
The way it's currently written, keeps users guessing themselves. They shouldn't know where the exact line is. It's better off to just stay away from the "grey area".
This is why I'm uncomfortable in public forums and I have been slowly posting less in them. I can't talk about the things I enjoy talking about most without fearing that my next message will be something about a permaban.

  • 07.13.2012 12:21 PM PDT

I strongly disagree with Bungie's gray area. I think a gray area is necessary, but as it is now, the forum rules are way too loose and I've noticed that moderators add and enforce their own rules. Some moderators will ban you for things that others wouldn't care about.

We need a longer list of rules so that doesn't happen.

  • 07.13.2012 12:27 PM PDT

@spawn031

"So much of what we do is ephemeral and quickly forgotten, even by ourselves, so it's gratifying to have something you have done linger in people's memories." John Williams

Posted by: King Dutchy
Posted by: spawn031
The way it's currently written, keeps users guessing themselves. They shouldn't know where the exact line is. It's better off to just stay away from the "grey area".
This is why I'm uncomfortable in public forums and I have been slowly posting less in them. I can't talk about the things I enjoy talking about most without fearing that my next message will be something about a permaban.
That's why it's vague. It works both ways. Giving users the exact line (basically making a bot for moderating) would get a lot of users unintentionally banned. Each situation is entirely different, and it's a service that the moderators provide to make that call.

If you question whether or not what you're posting is on that "grey area borderline", chances are you're letting someone else decide your fate. The first three words "Use common sense", means exactly what it says. If you wouldn't say or post that same thing in front of your mother, you probably shouldn't post it publicly.

I personally don't feel that I have a barrier between posting. I'm sure the last thing the moderating team wants to do is hinder other members from posting. As elmicker just posted "the rules are very clear", they're not that difficult to follow. Just don't stray from discussion and you're fine.

[Edited on 07.13.2012 12:51 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2012 12:44 PM PDT

"Once Bungie takes over the world, The Marty Army will take over Bungie and then we'll really have some fun."
-Marty O'Donnell

"Condemnant quod non intellegunt."

Make Bungie.net More Enjoyable: Read & Follow

Thanks for the all the informative replies. Lobster - let me clarify that I was not calling your thread spam, merely using it as an example of a thread that is apt to lead to "grey-area" replies. I had a good laugh reading your OP!

Foman, the areas in which you illuminated the patterns of your personal judgement in these matters are very helpful and I thank you for sharing them with me. I did not mean to insinuate that moderators act as a barrier for meaningful participation because I have been on this site long enough to know that the "noise" they filter out is beneficial not only through direct action, but also by deterrence, as spawn said.

I am inclined to disagree with elmicker and orlando. Elmicker - that thread seems to me a clear violation of the "no political discussion" rule, and therefore it doesn't exactly apply to what I was asking about. The volume of posts on these forums has grown precipitously over the years, and I think what you call "utterly inconsistent enforcement" is instead a byproduct of the realistic constraints of a busy volunteer force trying to police a truly massive populace. The thread has been locked; I am not sure what is "inconsistent" about that. But please feel free to enlighten me; I made this thread with an open mind!

It should also be kept in mind that although a black-and-white set of codified rules might be easier for someone like me, there are probably more people who would be unwilling to process the legalese of such rules and would prefer the current version.

Posted by: Achilles1108
Goody Two Shoes<--------------------->impurity

;)

  • 07.13.2012 12:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: paulmarv
The thread has been locked; I am not sure what is "inconsistent" about that.
the stuff about there being "nothing wrong with the thread" was a direct quote.

  • 07.13.2012 1:12 PM PDT

Кланяються мені!

The way I see it the gray area attempts to get members to put more thought into their posts. It tells your fairly plainly that this is a video game developers website. You should process and think about if your thread is really worth discussion. It also allows bans for those who deserve a ban without contradicting itself.

Some members say there shouldn't be a gray area, that all the rules should be mapped out and stated (No threads discussing X or Y)Which is how it actually used to be. They want clearly defined rules that are basically forum laws. Laws have loop holes, like that jerk salesman who rips people off and laughs in there face but he is protected by law. Gray area means that guy goes to jail because he is a jerk /=/Bungie.net

  • 07.13.2012 1:19 PM PDT

Perpetual Ninja in training.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

DMH

Los Paranoias

Meh, just be picky when you post, and you can be silly every once and a while. :3 The mods here are pretty chill though, but you just shouldn't be an idiot about your posts.

  • 07.13.2012 1:23 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

paulmarv I've made it a policy to disregard such absurd restrictions. I feel it is better to have a short-lived discussion with potential punishment rather than not having a discussion at all. There is always risk in thread reception.


Posted by: x Foman123 x
For the "safe for work" rule, the general rule of thumb I follow is: if you wouldn't see it or hear it in a PG-13 movie or below, it's not appropriate here. If you want to stay truly safe, don't post or write anything that you wouldn't see or hear in a PG-rated movie or below. The "gray area" is going to begin at stuff that you would only see in R-rated movies.
Clarifying grey area subjectivity in the rules by likening it to an even more subjective gray-area system is very helpful.
Your post itself is very cute however your advice of staying out the gray areas is problematic because the wording of the rules and even your post (ie:"don't do anything to impede normal, reasonable, discussion.") literally permits any post to be moderated subjectively, which leads to, as elmtreelicker so nicely put it, logically never posting to ensure avoiding the gray area.

Posted by: spawn031
They shouldn't know where the exact line is. It's better off to just stay away from the "grey area".
lol!

  • 07.13.2012 1:26 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Trying to reduce human interaction to a reliable, predictable, reproducible and consistent equation in order to know an "if this, then that" outcome?

Are you Hari Seldon?

  • 07.13.2012 1:57 PM PDT

*´¨)---––•(-• Dutchy •-)•–--–-(¨´*
¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)••(¨*•.¸ (¨´*•.¸´•.¸
(¸.•´ (¸.•Everything fails•.¸) ´•.¸)


Posted by: spawn032
If you question whether or not what you're posting is on that "grey area borderline", chances are you're letting someone else decide your fate. The first three words "Use common sense", means exactly what it says. If you wouldn't say or post that same thing in front of your mother, you probably shouldn't post it publicly.
You're misjudging me.

I personally don't feel that I have a barrier between posting.Of course you don't, an overwhelming majority of your posts aren't in the Flood.

I'm sure the last thing the moderating team wants to do is hinder other members from posting. As elmicker just posted "the rules are very clear", they're not that difficult to follow. Just don't stray from discussion and you're fine.Of course you would think that, an overwhelming amount of posts aren't in the Flood.

I swear, the Flood is like beer. So bad for me, but so good.

Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
Posted by: x Foman123 x
For the "safe for work" rule, the general rule of thumb I follow is: if you wouldn't see it or hear it in a PG-13 movie or below, it's not appropriate here. If you want to stay truly safe, don't post or write anything that you wouldn't see or hear in a PG-rated movie or below. The "gray area" is going to begin at stuff that you would only see in R-rated movies.
Clarifying grey area subjectivity in the rules by likening it to an even more subjective gray-area system is very helpful.
Your post itself is very cute however your advice of staying out the gray areas is problematic because the wording of the rules and even your post (ie:"don't do anything to impede normal, reasonable, discussion.") literally permits any post to be moderated subjectively, which leads to, as elmtreelicker so nicely put it, logically never posting to ensure avoiding the gray area.

Posted by: spawn031
They shouldn't know where the exact line is. It's better off to just stay away from the "grey area".
lol!
This post, I agree with it. a lot.

[Edited on 07.13.2012 2:07 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2012 1:59 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

You're jumping into a pool of sharks, but some of them already ate dinner so maybe you'll be okay.

But guys, about this now-distinct location we're discussing, is it "grey area" or "gray area"? I just want to be official and I've seen it both ways. Or are there two areas?

  • 07.13.2012 2:33 PM PDT

"Once Bungie takes over the world, The Marty Army will take over Bungie and then we'll really have some fun."
-Marty O'Donnell

"Condemnant quod non intellegunt."

Make Bungie.net More Enjoyable: Read & Follow

Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
paulmarv I've made it a policy to disregard such absurd restrictions. I feel it is better to have a short-lived discussion with potential punishment rather than not having a discussion at all. There is always risk in thread reception.

I understand where you are coming from, however that isn't an option for me. I respect Bungie enough that I can simply follow their forum rules - it's what I agreed to when I joined the site.


Posted by: Recon Number 54
Trying to reduce human interaction to a reliable, predictable, reproducible and consistent equation in order to know an "if this, then that" outcome?

Are you Hari Seldon?

Just trying to follow the rules in the most contributory and participating way, however I thank you for the fascinating reading material :)

From reading this thread, it seems my former policy is the safest: I'll continue refraining entirely from the grey-area and post only when relevant. Quality over quantity, especially with my aversion to being banned.


Posted by: CAVX
But guys, about this now-distinct location we're discussing, is it "grey area" or "gray area"? I just want to be official and I've seen it both ways. Or are there two areas?

You would ask CAVX, haha - from a quick Google search it seems "grey" is the British version.... same concept nonetheless.

  • 07.13.2012 3:45 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

It is grey, it will always be grey.

I too was worried about breaking the rules. In general, if I make a post I just ask myself 'Could this start a flame war?' and 'Would it be highly offensive to some users?' One line replies like 'That is awesome!' are usually contributing to the thread, but they are usually not good contribution. I wouldn't worry too hard. One mod, I forget which, said that you should not live in fear of the mods (vaguely paraphrasing).

  • 07.13.2012 4:19 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: King Dutchy
Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
Posted by: x Foman123 x
For the "safe for work" rule, the general rule of thumb I follow is: if you wouldn't see it or hear it in a PG-13 movie or below, it's not appropriate here. If you want to stay truly safe, don't post or write anything that you wouldn't see or hear in a PG-rated movie or below. The "gray area" is going to begin at stuff that you would only see in R-rated movies.
Clarifying grey area subjectivity in the rules by likening it to an even more subjective gray-area system is very helpful.
Your post itself is very cute however your advice of staying out the gray areas is problematic because the wording of the rules and even your post (ie:"don't do anything to impede normal, reasonable, discussion.") literally permits any post to be moderated subjectively, which leads to, as elmtreelicker so nicely put it, logically never posting to ensure avoiding the gray area.

Posted by: spawn031
They shouldn't know where the exact line is. It's better off to just stay away from the "grey area".
lol!
This post, I agree with it. a lot.
Please. I hope you're joking.

Subjective moderating doesn't mean that every post is in the gray area, neither by definition nor in practice. It's a dumb way to approach the problem philosophically and has no bearing on the way these forums are moderated in reality.

Complain about inconsistent moderation all you like; it's a stupid complaint that nobody takes seriously because despite making it for years, everybody with substantial experience here knows what kinds of posts WILL result in a ban, what kinds of posts MIGHT result in a ban and what kinds of posts will NEVER result in a ban. The area of "might" result in a ban are what we call the "gray area," and it is in fact where any perceived inconsistencies and ALL of the complaints about moderating take place.

So when I say "stay out of the gray area," every single person on this forum knows what I mean, whether or not you pretend you don't.

If you genuinely don't know what "stay out of the gray area" means, you should absolutely take the "I'll just post whatever I want and deal with it when I get banned" approach, like Duck Duck Death claims he takes (which he, in fact, does not -- just look at his history), or the "I will never post at all" approach, like Duck Duck Death recommended.

Playing dumb to try to make someone else look dumb is not an effective style of argument, and more importantly, it doesn't work. It most certainly does not result in any kind of beneficial outcome. Please don't do it.

  • 07.13.2012 4:35 PM PDT

Good God, not this -blam!- again.

>Use common sense

There you go. If you think it might be against the rules, don't post it. If you have the balls to post it anyway, risk getting banned. The rules are intentionally vague. Don't like it? Join a group. Don't like that being the only alternative? Leave.

  • 07.13.2012 4:46 PM PDT

I like these rules of thumb...

1. Are you doing what you are doing to antagonize someone?

2. Would you say that if you were in the same room with that person?

3. Is that a gun in your pocket or- (wrong list, sorry)

There is no set of rules that will ever eliminate the grey. There will always be citizens of the Internet that will descend into the crevices of meaning like they are exploring fractals. We ask that you use your best judgment for how to behave in a way that makes this community better. If you don't possess that, the status of your membership on this forum will be the least of your worries in life.

This thread is doomed. There have been a few of these today. You guys are getting ornery!

Foman, are we meeting for beers after work?

  • 07.13.2012 4:54 PM PDT

Clutchin' is a habit! 7th Column fo' lyfe

I felt the same way and got a 3 day ban last year. I still don't always like commenting on any post because of it but I do because even though I'm older than most and really shouldn't care as much as I do this community really means a lot to me.

This is NOT meant to be a negative post about how I got banned but what I'm trying to say is that sometimes its hard to post or even join a convo. I didn't even really know what a "troll" was before this website BUT I still post because I wanted to stay relevant and in this community although I did take off for a long while once it happened.

[Edited on 07.13.2012 5:02 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2012 4:54 PM PDT

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