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Subject: CE vs Reach Comparisons

Figured I may as well follow through. This list will continually grow and change. Sliding Ghost and nesteggfailure are free to add as they will and I'll add them to the OP.

Characters
Elites

CE:
-consistently competent enemies
-clear roles & colour progression for each rank
-each rank had predictable behaviours and fighting styles
-competence and abilities increased with rank
-increased difficulty results in increased aggression and numbers; slightly increased ROF, damage, and punishment capacity
-melees avoidable and damage/speed progressed with rank
-only Spec Ops Elites threw grenades
-Active Camoflouge Elites had no shields as compensation for stealth

Reach:
-Competence highly variable
-ranks difficult to discern from one another
-simplicity of colour progression replaces with random colour scheme
-no clear indicator or role between several ranks (General v Zealot v Bob)
-increased difficulty results in damage sponge and massive ROF/damage increase in addition to
-movement unpredictable at all times, no pattern to movement
-melees unavoidable, always massive damage (one-hit kill with difficulty)
-all Elites throw instant grenades
-all Elites have shields


more later

  • 07.25.2012 8:40 PM PDT

Why Bungie, why would you do this?! - Halo Community

A list on how CE AI is better than Reach AI...this is going to be a long thread.

-Marines in CE are competent and can survive encounters if protected and guided. They are worth keeping alive, as they WILL support you, and excel with sniper rifles and grenades. Bad drivers, sadly.

-Marines in Reach stand around idly and do little damage, even on lower difficulties. They are awful at fighting and die easily, and aren't worth keeping alive. They will rarely move ahead with you, and purposely stutter at everything they do. Worse drivers.

  • 07.25.2012 10:26 PM PDT
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If I were to dedicate all night to this endeavor, this thread might reach it's second page by morning. But I'd like to take this opportunity to focus on particular enemies so I'll make my list on friendly AI less severe.

Friendly AI

CE:

-marines in large numbers can kick ass. Covies won't be able to concentrate on just one marine. Constant/suppressive fire will force Elites to strafe and take cover and Jackals to roll, rendering them largely unable to retaliate for long periods as they'd usually would.

-marines stay in their seats in most cases, allowing you to leave them behind for long periods or position them in defense positions (best combined with a sniper wielding passenger).

Only instances where they will get out of a vehicle (Scorpion, Hog) by themselves:
*the flipped Hog on AotCR
*the Scorpion on AotCR

-it is possible to save:

*all the marines on Halo (you can drive the life pod survivors away so they don't get picked up by the Pelicans)
*all the marines during the T&R boarding battle
*all the marines from the SC beach landing (you can prevent their deaths after activating the Cartographer by driving them deep into the Cartographer structure beforehand)
*all the marines on AotCR
*the 3 marines that can be found being overwhelmed by the Flood
*the marines that accompany you to the large tower

Of these, only 2 are not worth doing (hint: both encounters found on 343 Guilty Spark, where marines make their last appearance and are supposed to be waging a hopeless battle against a new threat).

-marines will berserk when they take a lot of damage. This is not necessarily a flaw. It conveys their aggression towards Covies quite well

-in most cases, marines will stick with you and follow you. Only known instances where they charge regardless of your supervision:

*at the beach landing stage on SC

-typically, if you are not around or do not help out, marines will be pwned by the following:

*plasma grenades thrown by Grunts
*superior Elite numbers (obviously)
*Jackals (only because of their shields, though they will give marines a chance to hit them by rolling)
*sword Elites (obviously)
*Hunters (obviously)

Reach:

Note: I'll be referring to troopers as marines for simplicity

-marines are damage sponges
-marines show poor performance in nearly everything they do. They do not at all demonstrate any effort. Their rof is minimal. They do not at all demonstrate any emotion. They die because they stood there doing nothing.
-it is inconceivable to save all marines in a given location by fighting. The only way to save them all is to block them
-marines have sluggish response, turning, and getting in vehicles, probably intentional
-marines rarely stay in vehicles. Often, if you hop out, they'll hop out as well. If you leave them for several seconds, they will get in your vehicle and likely drive off with it, perhaps off a cliff or they will splatter you with it. If you block the driver seat then get on the turret, the marine who was operating it will charge into battle instead of waiting around for you to get back behind the wheels
-fireteams are purely aesthetic. Most of it is scripting
-it is virtually impossible to develop genuine concern for marines, even named ones, unless they are gunners
-marines can now throw grenades from behind cover though I have only seen it on LNoS from behind sandbag and this seems to be the only new capability introduced
-marines don't use the DMR at it's proper range yet they use the plasma rifle, concussion rifle, and needle rifle at their proper range. Probably intentional and possibly evidence that marines share AI with Covies to some extent as Covies can also be seen using these weapons at longer ranges
-marines at the end of Exodus suffer from non-complacency, meaning they don't notice the Covies, though they will put shots into recently killed Covies. The Covies mostly don't notice them either. This is probably intentional, or the marine AI is swapped with Moa...
-marines with heavy weapons or mounting heavy weaponry (Wraith mortar, rocket hog) will shoot at dead bodies or departing dropships instead of dealing with the threat at hand
-marines are only useful if they are wielding power weapons or in turrets
-marines are essentially moving ammo, designed to be killed by the enemy or to be betrayed for their guns (which reflects Reach mp behavior...)
-marines are not reliable for distraction. The enemy is designed to focus on the player
-Pelicans often deploy 10 marines at a time. They always charge into battle instead of taking up defense positions. They get owned hard
-Noble Team sucks. Enough said

  • 07.26.2012 2:01 AM PDT

-blam!- this. I'll get to it when I have like a gazillion hours.

Goodnight.

  • 07.26.2012 2:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: InvasionImminent
-blam!- this. I'll get to it when I have like a gazillion hours.

Goodnight.
-unexpected inaccessible gun fire from distant turrets ruining stealth

  • 07.26.2012 2:29 AM PDT
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Elites: SG Edition

CE:

-Elite rank promotions are not categorized by increase in health
-Elites do not have a turning melee and are unable to keep up with you if you go around them, making up for their large melee range which prevents them from easily being assassinated during combat
-only Zealots possess the significant advantages and disadvantages that categorize Elites in Reach: extremely fast movement speed, excess berserking, one hit kill strike, strong shields, extremely fast rof, increased awareness

Yet they are just right.

Reach:

-bottomless clip
-blatant disregard for oneself and allies (accounted for by the game minimizing damage for the Elite and his comrades). They will often hit themselves or allies with concussion rifle shots or fuel rods but they will take negligible damage. When a marine misfires, he will surely die
-damage inconsistency. Concussion rifle shots are very lethal when used by enemies but when used by the player, they are very weak and ineffectual
-area knowledge. Going to certain locations will cause Elites to go there. Easily exploitable but most of the time, simply unpleasant as it destroys stealth. On LNoS, you can hide out in the water or at the top of a cliff but as soon as you touch the ground where they were dropped off, they will retreat towards you
-cannot adapt to scenery manipulation and are exposed as non-functioning. Battles are easily destroyed by a simple blockade
-firing your gun or throwing a grenade alerts every enemy in the vicinity regardless of where you shoot and where you throw the grenade. In CE, there is massive stealth potential by alerting enemies.
-they do not suffer from no shield bleedthrough or Bloom
-Elite rank promotions are categorized merely by increase in health, shielding, awareness, and weapons
-all Elites have extremely fast movement speed
-all Elites can berserk even when their shields are intact. Not only does this mean a nearly unavoidable clash and loss of your shield and most of your health, but it also means the Elite can easily be dispatched and provides an opening for assassination
-dancing with Elites provides countless assassination opportunities
-they easily succumb to Hologram
-their response to needle rifle shards is totally unrealistic. Even if it can be explained how quickly they can notice it, it is ridiculous that they can dodge it that quickly
-traces of sluggishness when turning
-to maximize the severity of dual wielding, which the player cannot use, dual wielding Elites cannot be assassinated if they've noticed you
-fuel rod wielders have impossible dexterity with their aiming, being able to fire a fuel rod through a small hole and being able to hit their target
-Elites are immensely durable to the plasma pistol overcharged bolt

  • 07.26.2012 2:34 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Posted by: InvasionImminent
-blam!- this. I'll get to it when I have like a gazillion hours.

Goodnight.
-unexpected inaccessible gun fire from distant turrets ruining stealth

Inaccessible? You got shot by the wraith, if I saw that correctly. It's definitely accessible, and fully controllable. If you're talking about the AA guns outside the map, those don't startle enemy AI.

EDIT: You got shot by what appears to be a pelican? I'm now clueless to what happened. To many possibilities.

On a sidenote, your "WC - Imperial Vermin: 2 zealots takedown" was godly. I must try that when the next WC LASO weekly challenge comes by.

[Edited on 07.26.2012 2:59 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2012 2:57 AM PDT
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This one should be much more easier to handle. I don't care too much about canon (I care more about gameplay immersion) but my hate for Reach dictates this post.

Inconsistencies

CE:

-hog run, though there may be some degree of reasonability to it's design
-no Zuka Zamamee attack in elevator, though CE doesn't have to go by the book (wasn't it written afterwards?). There was no dead horribly maimed sergeant on The Library yet there was a horribly maimed Elite on 343 Guilty Spark

-when you reach the area with the locked door, if you go back outside, there will be a lot of dead Flood bodies. Though this is not necessarily an inconsistency since Flood combat forms can be seen in the background and motion sensor prior to breaching the facility and these dead Flood are likely playing dead (a trait seen in gameplay)
-3 dead Grunts at the bottom of AotCR pit. These 3 Grunts are likely the 3 Grunts that were in the cutscene
-lone marine at the top of 343 Guilty Spark
-another active 343 Guilty Spark at the bottom of The Library pit

Most of the above are not really inconsistencies. I just thought I'd mention them before people start assuming I'm biased. I hate Reach for scarring me but that does not mean I will just blatantly ignore CE's flaws.

CEA:

-quite numerous

Reach:

-a marine with a shotgun killed an Ultra Elite. This contradicts everything Halo: Reach has been about. Very often, there are only dead marines. No dead Covies, not even a single Grunt. And in gameplay, marines show poor performance. If Bungie had placed this outside of the level or in a hidden location, it would have been a proper easter egg. Instead, it is an immersion breaking easter egg
-wth is the PoA doing on Reach? I can understand Cortana being a fragment but this, no way
-at the beginning of Winter Contingency, a Spec Ops Elite can be shot. Although this is only on Legendary so it is not necessarily an inconsistency
-Bob Elites. Few of them will cloak IIRC and then disappear but most will just disappear, often immediately after they are spawned (notably on LNoS when coming down in drop pods). Though most are outside of confrontations, the few that are within confrontations should not be there as they can break immersion
-Generals. Despite their high rank and apparent replacement of Zealots (as seen by how it is a General in LNoS's bridge), they are never prioritized as important targets (whereas the Zealot on TotS is marked) and never appear in cutscenes
-Lone Wolf
-retcon regarding Zealots and Spec Ops Elites
-Noble Team AI. Enough said
-Noble Team in cutscenes (excluding Jorge, and Kat, who is very similar to AI Kat: bad driver, bumbling incompetence, attitude, cynical hatred for Covies)
-Noble Six. Most of the time spent playing as him, it's lone wolf stuff despite having team members present. And I thought Carter told him to drop that...
-how did Jorge get to a Falcon and the Falcon to Noble Six's position just seconds after the Spire's defenses were shut down?

  • 07.26.2012 3:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: InvasionImminent

Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Posted by: InvasionImminent
-blam!- this. I'll get to it when I have like a gazillion hours.

Goodnight.
-unexpected inaccessible gun fire from distant turrets ruining stealth

Inaccessible? You got shot by the wraith, if I saw that correctly. It's definitely accessible, and fully controllable. If you're talking about the AA guns outside the map, those don't startle enemy AI.

EDIT: You got shot by what appears to be a pelican? I'm now clueless to what happened. To many possibilities.
Just for the note, I hate Reach but that doesn't mean I'm going to go out on an all-assault. If H2 and H3 were included, they would have a lot as well. And I'm not going to ignore CE's flaws...

For example, a CE inconsistency:

How the hell did all the marines in the life pod die after escaping the PoA? They were all strapped in. There was a popular, humorous theory on Waypoint that suggested that Chief was being knocked all over the place due to not wearing a seat-belt, explaining why he was unconscious for so long.

I'm pretty sure it was the AA gun at the top of the level that messed me up.

Posted by: InvasionImminent
On a sidenote, your "WC - Imperial Vermin: 2 zealots takedown" was godly. I must try that when the next WC LASO weekly challenge comes by.
Hope it helps.

[Edited on 07.26.2012 3:09 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2012 3:05 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost

It's silly to hate a game. I don't like Final Fantasy VII, but I don't hate it. It just isn't for me. As for the video, the bottom screen shows a shot from an odd angle I don't think could be the AA turrets. I think a friendly pelican was helping, but shot you on accident.

  • 07.26.2012 3:12 AM PDT
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Level design under construction

CE:

-343 Guilty Spark can be confusing
-The Library is extremely repetitive and bland
-at the underground area on Two Betrayals, if you don't let the Flood spawn, you cannot continue the mission since the Banshees won't spawn
-last three missions are past missions in opposite direction
-for some parts, you have to use a vehicle to continue the mission
-less strict exploration
-Silent Cartographer lets you do objectives in any order
-clipping with vehicles
-bringing a Banshee into rooms on AotCR
-megabattles: supported scripted AI collections
-certain areas on Halo, AotCR, SC hand out checkpoints each time you visit them, increasing replayability
-nearly all checkpoints can be delayed indefinitely
-far more checkpoint delaying means (Banshee fire, plasma grenade, jumping, enemy threat, killing Hunters) compared to Reach (jumping, enemy proximity)
-game supports team killing and killing important NPCs. Friendly AI are tough as enemies (can kill faster than Covies due to their weapons) but they're not invincible. On PoA, there is an easter egg that spawns invincible marines that try to kill you if you kill Capt. Keyes. On T&R, you can kill Keyes before deactivating the shield or get the Elite Zealot whacking at him.

Reach:

-for some parts, you have to use a vehicle to continue the mission
-most areas can be skipped by mere movement/sprinting. Rarely jumping or things like clipping (Forklift skip on Nightfall).
-vehicles essential to the mission can be disrupted (though not necessarily destroyed)
-Noble Team will inevitably steal kills
-a lot of encounters are in waves that do not gradually arrive. You have to kill prior enemies
-too much of Firefight type skirmishes in campaign
-defend points are often redundant (i.e. defend Jun)
-teleporting & invincible friendly AI. It should be one or the other or neither. Only time they should teleport is if they're knocked off the level. If they're blocked, they should stay that way
-excess use of invisible barriers + 10 second countdowns. Invisible barriers shouldn't be so close and 10 second countdown barriers shouldn't be so supplemented by another barrier
-checkpoint occurrence can be bizarre
-game punishes you for killing friendly AI, even if it was an accident; Noble Team can instant kill you if you betray despite already being invincible making combat with them pointless; friendly AI do not appear as red when you put your crosshair on them making it agonizing to try to fight them

[Edited on 07.26.2012 3:42 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2012 3:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: InvasionImminent

Posted by: Sliding Ghost

It's silly to hate a game. I don't like Final Fantasy VII, but I don't hate it. It just isn't for me.

As for the video, the bottom screen shows a shot from an odd angle I don't think could be the AA turrets. I think a friendly pelican was helping, but shot you on accident.
But I'm a no life. Video game developing is probably going to be my future job. This methodicalness I've developed from playing far too many frustrating or unpleasant games (even kid's games can do that to me) has pushed me over the edge, yearning for a game that is well designed and without spite. CE is the closest to that.

I've seen them do it several times. Normally, it's negligible. If I had made a blockade more closer to the Covies, that might have not happened but surely you know how terribly difficult it is to build a blockade at this part of the level.

[Edited on 07.26.2012 3:33 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2012 3:21 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
but I'm a no life.

So am I. I'm sitting up at 6:30 to type out a response on a video game forum.

Video game developing is probably going to be my future job.
Then you must realize not everyone likes the same thing. Pro tip right there.

This methodicalness I've developed from playing far too many frustrating or unpleasant games (even kid's games can do that to me) has pushed me over the edge, yearning for a game that is well designed and without spite. CE is the closest to that.
Perhaps you should diverse your game selection? Youtube has footage of some amazing games.

I've seen them do it several times. Normally, it's negligible. If I had made a blockade more closer to the Covies, that might have not happened but surely you know how terribly difficult it is to build a blockade at this part of the level.
Actually I don't. I have at least forgotten. For I hate LNoS and always will. I try to play it, but the linearity is repulsive.

  • 07.26.2012 3:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: InvasionImminent

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
but I'm a no life.

So am I. I'm sitting up at 6:30 to type out a response on a video game forum.
Summer vacation eh? On a side note, it's coincidentally 3:43 AM as I type this.

Posted by: InvasionImminent
Video game developing is probably going to be my future job.
Then you must realize not everyone likes the same thing. Pro tip right there.
I'll keep that in mind...

Posted by: InvasionImminent
This methodicalness I've developed from playing far too many frustrating or unpleasant games (even kid's games can do that to me) has pushed me over the edge, yearning for a game that is well designed and without spite. CE is the closest to that.
Perhaps you should diverse your game selection? Youtube has footage of some amazing games.
My apathy towards newer games makes that difficult. I don't really have any interest in other genres. That part of me died several years ago.

I only look forward to H4 mostly because of it's proposed emphasis on the AI and because of Spartan Ops footage on Legendary.

Posted by: InvasionImminent
I've seen them do it several times. Normally, it's negligible. If I had made a blockade more closer to the Covies, that might have not happened but surely you know how terribly difficult it is to build a blockade at this part of the level.
Actually I don't. I have at least forgotten. For I hate LNoS and always will. I try to play it, but the linearity is repulsive.
I see. In that case, I might put up with LNoS one last time to deliver something interesting. Of course, this time I'll have game save modding to assist me.

[Edited on 07.26.2012 3:45 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2012 3:44 AM PDT

SG, I have a problem with one part of your "saving Marines" on Silent Cartographer part. I've tried driving multiple full Warthogs down to the doorway after I noticed the two survive a few times. But the other two Warthogs are always sitting on corpses after I come back up.

  • 07.26.2012 8:53 AM PDT
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Posted by: chickenlittle
SG, I have a problem with one part of your "saving Marines" on Silent Cartographer part. I've tried driving multiple full Warthogs down to the doorway after I noticed the two survive a few times. But the other two Warthogs are always sitting on corpses after I come back up.
I'll test it out.

  • 07.26.2012 9:01 AM PDT

Why Bungie, why would you do this?! - Halo Community


Posted by: chickenlittle
SG, I have a problem with one part of your "saving Marines" on Silent Cartographer part. I've tried driving multiple full Warthogs down to the doorway after I noticed the two survive a few times. But the other two Warthogs are always sitting on corpses after I come back up.


After you complete SC, and go to fight the stealth elites, walking or driving up the ramp to the top floor activates a kill barrier that affects marines (and surprisingly covenant on the top floor.) and lasts about half a second. Any marines by the door the zealots hides behind will survive the scripted death barrier.

Leaving marines down by the door when you go to the top floor freezes them when you come back.

Oh, and the zealot can get some weird kills if your warthogs are close enough to the door.

  • 07.26.2012 10:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: Dark Hunter 2100

Posted by: chickenlittle
SG, I have a problem with one part of your "saving Marines" on Silent Cartographer part. I've tried driving multiple full Warthogs down to the doorway after I noticed the two survive a few times. But the other two Warthogs are always sitting on corpses after I come back up.


After you complete SC, and go to fight the stealth elites, walking or driving up the ramp to the top floor activates a kill barrier that affects marines (and surprisingly covenant on the top floor.) and lasts about half a second. Any marines by the door the zealots hides behind will survive the scripted death barrier.

Leaving marines down by the door when you go to the top floor freezes them when you come back.
Actually, the marines are killed much sooner.

Not necessarily. I deposited 4 marines next to the security door and they all died.

Yet when I placed marines in front of the loading point, they were alive. 5/9 marines intact, after activating the Cartographer. 4 in hogs, 1 on foot.

It would appear that they have to be active (to test, shoot your gun and see if they turn to you) for the script to not work on them.

Posted by: Dark Hunter 2100
Oh, and the zealot can get some weird kills if your warthogs are close enough to the door.
Fill me in damn it! I love Zealots.

[Edited on 07.26.2012 10:38 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2012 10:35 AM PDT

Why Bungie, why would you do this?! - Halo Community


Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Not necessarily. I deposited 4 marines next to the security door and they all died.

Yet when I placed marines in front of the loading point, they were alive. 5/9 marines intact, after activating the Cartographer. 4 in hogs, 1 on foot.

It would appear that they have to be active (to test, shoot your gun and see if they turn to you) for the script to not work on them.

Posted by: Dark Hunter 2100
Oh, and the zealot can get some weird kills if your warthogs are close enough to the door.
Fill me in damn it! I love Zealots.


-Right, frozen marines are counted as outside by the loading point's perspective. You basically have to get all marines down there at once, or you will have some freezers. I didn't realize SC was so freaking specific, stupid door.

-Well, I was trying to get all marines through Silent Cartographer alive (Heroic, legendary was too pro for me). After some tedious work, I clumped them inside the bottom floor, most looking up the ramp going up.

I breeze through, and am aiming my stick for the zealot. Then suddenly I hear marine's crying out in pain. I go around the corner to find a zealot slicing the crap out of my marines. It kills 5 and gets stuck by a warthog with a passenger on the other side, firing with some understandable urgency.

I forgot what I did with the save, but it could easily be remade.

  • 07.26.2012 9:49 PM PDT
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>Not necessarily at once. As long as they are close to the loading point, they should not freeze.

>Yesterday's test was on Easy. I'm not good enough to do the beach landings (ain't that a shocker?). I'm accustomed to marines sticking with me, not charging into there asking to be shot.

Anyways, it doesn't have to be tedious. Nor does it have to extremely risky. There is a spot that will yield infinite checkpoints each time you visit it. With that in mind, you can easily get all the marines in place without accidentally splattering one or ending up with a frozen marine.

Try firing your gun a little early. If you're lucky, Goldie should be standing still as if he just spawned. That's what I used to do when I didn't want to do a fancy assassination on Goldie.

Edit:

Hmm looks like I forgot something. They have to be able to be spotted by you to not freeze. Placing the hog even to the left or right of the entrance will freeze the marines in it, though it can easily be rearranged and unfrozen. The real problem is dealing with marines that are not in the hog.

Anyways, here's my attempt from yesterday.

[Edited on 07.27.2012 1:36 AM PDT]

  • 07.27.2012 12:54 AM PDT

OK, vehicles time.


CE:
In general:
-vehicle physics unrealistic but consistent and fluid
-vehicle combat is fluid with infantry combat
-entry & exit is fluid

Warthog:
-bounces off objects rather than stopping
-very good shock absorbers; usually doesn't land like a brick and stop moving forward
-turret powerful close-mid range
-turret inaccurate past mid-range
-virtually impossible to flip or roll without detonation or bad driving

Scorpion:
-main cannon has large explosive radius
-main cannon inaccurate at long range
-secondary machine gun inaccurate at any range
-

Ghost:
-dual cannon
-cannon freezes briefly on hit
-inaccurate past short-mid range
-could ride the front up in the air for jumps and avoiding obstacles
-no boost
-could be avoided by crouching

Wraith:


Banshee:




Reach:




to be completed tomorrow

  • 07.27.2012 9:15 PM PDT
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CE:
In general:

-guns can still be operated as you get out
-reliable splatter
-marines can only pilot Ghosts but only if they are aware of enemies
--you can get out of the driver seat very quickly and your momentum is still carried for nimble vehicles (Banshee, Ghost, Hog), this can be used for launching or clipping (bypassing walls)
-vehicles can be fought and destroyed solely on foot even on higher difficulties
-controlling which vehicles an AI can get into is very easy and reliable*
-several enemy vehicle encounters do not give the player an opportunity to secure a given location if he skips it; there's no turning back**

*if an AI pilot is ejected out of his seat, he will be unable to get back in the vehicle. If a vehicle is flipped, AI won't be able to flip it (only exception to this are the Shades at the beginning of AotCR on higher difficulties)
**if you skip the first big outside battle on AotCR, the Wraith will drive over the edge and will be near the Scorpion. If you skip the second big outside battle on AotCR, the Ghosts will all gather at the blast door

Warthog:
-very fast
-if you drive the hog straight, you can get out and man the turret before the hog comes to a stop
-nearly all Hogs are marine retaining (they do not get out if you leave it)
-first person passenger seat
-can flip certain vehicles (i.e. the Wraith) by driving into them though it takes a little effort
-passenger health shown on the hud
-the bounciness makes it feel much more futuristic as it can be seen as 'automatically readjusting itself'
-sometimes having marines in the passenger seats may be all you need as enemies can notice occupied vehicles even if they aren't placed in their sight

Scorpion:

-decent speed
-main cannon has long waiting time
-treads can be ridden on Co-op
-can bypass some obstacles*
-can flip vehicles by driving into them

*on AotCR, you can bring the Scorpion up the ledge. If you do the bridge jump, park it near the door so when you trigger the outside battle, you will be able to fight them with the tank. It is also possible to collect the 3 marines on the Scorpion (and they will not get off the tank up to a certain point) so you will be augmented in advance

Ghost:
-higher hover height
-not designed for splatter but it is possible to splatter Hunters and Zealots with it
-can be used as cover but is not as reliable in Xbox version due to press X to enter vehicle
-needs no boost since it's already fast
-can be used to clip
-it is possible to make an unarmed Zealot using one
-driving against a tank will send it flying
-when an AI occupied Ghost is shot by the Scorpion, it will be destroyed instead of the pilot taking the brunt of the damage

Wraith:

-pilot can be flipped out
-higher hover height allows it to go over some surfaces
-mortar is less deadly and less likely to hit you
-is designed to go easy on infantry, giving marines an opportunity to fill it with lead
-has no turret support
-sniper bullets bounce off of it
-some pilots do not spawn in the Wraith and can be sniped
-drivers do not intentionally try to splatter

Banshee:

-more easily controlled due to hover
-fuel rod is useful for flipping AI out of vehicles with little damage done to them
-can flip vehicles by driving into them
-made a wailing noise like what it's named after
-better strafing
-more aggressive and persistent AI pilots
-satisfying destruction
-rarely gets stuck in spots
-easily goaded
-main cannons can be reliably avoided with strafe, allowing you to get some close up shots or a stick on the Banshee
-it is possible to get incredible sticks on one, particularly from long range

Shade:

-AI gunners have a reasonable rof, turning speed, and awareness
-is useful in specific encounters
-can be used as cover but is not as reliable in Xbox version due to press X to enter vehicle
-you can manipulate AI spawns
-it is possible to make an unarmed Zealot using one
-can be used for bridge jump in PAL version

Reach:

Banshee:

-hard to control due to fast forward movement speed and lack of hover. Has faster flips to compensate
-bad strafe: charge at enemy firing main guns, turn around and boost
-obtrusive flipping (trying to hit them with a homing rocket doesn't always work)
-passive AI pilots due to severity of Banshee's guns
-hazardous destruction: Banshee's cowling often splatters the player
-wings can be shot off
-can fire while boosting or doing flips
-often seen stuck in spots
-easily hijacked
-easily defeated by EMP
-often kamikazes for no apparent reason

Shade:

-AI gunners are absurd on higher difficulties
-most are placed in defensive position, thus being useless against further enemies
-wild spread makes it's shots harder to avoid

[Edited on 07.28.2012 4:14 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2012 4:03 AM PDT


Posted by: chickenlittle

Reach:
-Competence highly variable

I guess.
-ranks difficult to discern from one another
No they are not. Unless you're talking about Jackals and skirmishers, but I myself have never been able to discern rank from those enemies an any games.
-simplicity of colour progression replaces with random colour scheme
Well they look much better IMO. I think the Minors shade of blue should be the Halo 2 dark, but this is really just an opinion.
-no clear indicator or role between several ranks (General v Zealot v Bob)
Generals are seen commanding land infantry. Zealots have a much more open job, as Halsey even states what the Zealots are supposed to do in the ending cutscene of Swordbase. BOBs don't have any relation to story, and bringing that argument up against and easter egg when CE has whales noises out of no where and booty grabbing elites is silly.
-increased difficulty results in damage sponge and massive ROF/damage increase in addition to
This has been a (sad) tradition since Halo 2. This isn't classic to Reach.
-movement unpredictable at all times, no pattern to movement
No.
-melees unavoidable, always massive damage (one-hit kill with difficulty)
No.
-all Elites throw instant grenades
The only Elites I see throwing stickies are Ultras. They do have a good arm, but it's avoidable because their animation is forgiving.
-all Elites have shields
This is such another tradition since Halo 2. Not anything due to specifically Reach.


Feel free for anyone to debate this and argue and waste more minutes of my life pointing out small minute details, but I do not promise I will get back to you on a short notice.

And yes, I realize this isn't an argument thread. But posting differences between game and game is putting the thread potential to bad use. Especially since good debates could come out of it.

[Edited on 07.28.2012 4:54 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2012 4:50 AM PDT
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Posted by: InvasionImminent
BOBs don't have any relation to story
True but they shouldn't have been placed so blatantly in the path. Their placement is as atrocious as Moa and civilians.

Easter eggs should be subtle. Only the traditional ones (special dialogue Grunt, crazy marine) should be obvious.

H2 had some interesting easter eggs but they were placed outside of combat: dead Grunts with swords (implying suicide), Excalibur, Scarab gun, IWHBYD, invincible Hog

Personally I like BOBs but their immersion breaking capability is as massive as Noble Team. Disappearing without a transition (i.e. camo) is one of the main reasons why I find their exit so repulsive. Another reason is that they're often non-combat despite possessing strong shields. They deserve a role in combat (plus they'd keep Noble Team busy for a long time, allowing me to do AI collections unhindered).

Posted by: InvasionImminent
-increased difficulty results in damage sponge and massive ROF/damage increase in addition to
This has been a (sad) tradition since Halo 2. This isn't classic to Reach.
The massive ROF increase wasn't prevalent in H2 vehicles. And I never really noticed it with H2 infantry (plus why would there need to be a massive ROF increase in H2 when Angry skull exists and the AI keep firing after the player goes into cover?).

Reach vehicles piloted by AI are a whole new level of bs. Fast turning speed for the Shade and Ghost, enemy Wraiths able to fire at targets behind them, friendly Wraiths able to fire from odd angles.

Posted by: InvasionImminent
-movement unpredictable at all times, no pattern to movement
No.
I think what chickenlittle was trying to say is that they're always on the move. And this is generally true when they are alerted. CE Elites went back into patrol/waiting if there was no activity.

Posted by: InvasionImminent
-melees unavoidable, always massive damage (one-hit kill with difficulty)
No.
True. The damage sometimes varies (on Legendary, sometimes I only take a little shield damage).

Posted by: InvasionImminent
Feel free for anyone to debate this and argue and waste more minutes of my life pointing out small minute details, but I do not promise I will get back to you on a short notice.
You're as zealous for Reach as I am for CE. I won't be the one to debate. Just reason.

[Edited on 07.28.2012 6:32 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2012 6:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Posted by: InvasionImminent
BOBs don't have any relation to story
True but they shouldn't have been placed so blatantly in the path. Their placement is as atrocious as Moa and civilians.

Easter eggs should be subtle.
Or exclusive to Legendary, like in H2 and like the Tribute Room and the Spec Ops Elite carrying the data pad.

[Edited on 07.28.2012 8:01 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2012 8:00 AM PDT

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