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Subject: Why Are People So Opposed to the Halo Books?

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I didn't hear of the Athens or Malta in the books...

  • 06.16.2006 9:12 PM PDT
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I've read the books.

The problem is: NOT everyone HAs

Now hear me out- Halo 3 is gonna appeal to one specific range of gamers: casual gamers who are mostly male and in the range of 18- to about 36 years old. Now here is a statistic that im gonna just pull out: I would guess that out of ALL those who are gonna buy H3, not more than 8% are gonna have read the books.

Bungie is all about making a good story. Would throwing in these spartans help? Maybe if they introduced in the first or second game. But now, they WOULDNT fit.
My buddies who I game with have had the game since day 1. They STILL dont even know who Gravemind is. And theyve had this game for about the ( 1, 2?? ) years it came out.

Ok, out of all 8 of us who game regularly on halo, I am the ONLY one who even follows the story. Which leads me to my next point: Xbox live.

Live is what is gonna sell H3, not the campaign, plain and SIMple. Live is what bungie is gonna shoot for when they release this 'ultimate experince' that is H3

Personally, I'm gonna play campaign all the way through when i get it. Why? Because I love this storyline and the plot and I am dying to see how its gonna resolve. But had I not read the books, if I saw a spartan who wasnt chief id simply go "wtf?? who is that?" Thus, the experience and greatness that is chief is lost, as these new spartans suddenly steal the spotlight.

But this is Master Chief's show. Halo 3 is pretty much Halo 2, part 2, and it began with the chief and it will end with the chief. dropping in these new characters are just gonna confuse everyone


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  • 06.16.2006 9:12 PM PDT
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The fact that Master Chief would be facing innumerable legions of an inconquerable enemy would not make Master Chief seem invincible, the fact that Master Chief is invincible would make him seem invincible. He and Sergeant A. J. Johnson could defeat any force in the universe... but, I digress.

The main argument people seem to have is that Bungie said there wouldn't be characters from the books in the games. I would like to point out however that Bungie also said that they weren't working on Halo 3, so there you go. I mentioned in another thread, that elements unique to the books (Helljumpers), had made it into the game. To people who had read the books, this was an eye-catching reference. To those who hadn't, I would assume this appeared to be a nifty set of NPC's or perhaps something of little importance. I would like to point out that the world did not end.

Now I'll admit a Helljumper is not quite as Earth-shattering as a Spartan (they rarely crash land and survive) but I don't think a Spartan would overshadow the Master Chief as far as the plot is concerned. John 117 is the squad leader of his year, he is not the fastest, strongest, stealthiest, tallest, or smartest, but he is the luckiest. He has a knack for being in the right place at the right time with the right weapons, and he's a phenomenal leader and tactician.

Linda is mentioned in the Halo 2 manual. Expecting the fans to go out and purchase a set of novels in order to understand the plot is one thing, but hoping them to read two paragraphs in a manual provided for free jst doesn't seem like too much to ask. Granted she's in critical conditional and frozen in stasis, but I'm sure that future doctors could repair her while risking the least amount of harm, especially since she's a sturdy Spartan.

Finally, not much would be required to introduce and explain the presence of new Spartans in the game, I thin a cutscene or two, as well as one level will satisfy most casual gamers.

Anyone have anything to add.

  • 06.16.2006 9:25 PM PDT

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And yes. I understand how pathetic that is, but nobody reads these things anyway... right?

All following quotes posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
It has been stated by Joe Staten, that the books are cannon to the Halo Games, because both games, and all 3 novels come from the same Halo bible. They are one in the same.

Alright, if that's an actual quote, then I believe you. As I said, I wasn't completely sure, I just had a vague memory.

* The Covenant Flagship; Ascendant Justice
* Covenant A.I.s
* Time warping crystal; we experience it's effects in Halo 2.

Could you please clarify when these appear in the game? I don't remember seeing them, but I could be wrong. (for the crystal explanation, see the 'atmosphere timeslip' thing...)

* Johnson; Escaped Halo's blast
* Race: Prophets
* Race: Brutes*]Battle Rifle
* Brute shot
* SMG
* Magnum

This could be explained by Bungie wanting to keep some integrity, the books said johnson lived; so they might have just gone with it. Another possibility is that Bungie could have told the authors that they wanted Johnson alive, so Eric Nylund (he wrote First Strike... right?) could have come up with a plausible cause for his survival. Same thing with the other stuff, the authors could have been tipped of to its implementation.

* New feature: Dual Wielding
This could have been used by the books because it would sound cooler, then Bungie implemented it because it was an obvious next step in gameplay.

* Slipspace; jumping from inside an atmosphere
Actually, there is nothing in the game that says you can't make slipspace jumps in the atmosphere, it was the book that said that you couldn't. Therefor, there could have never been such a conflict in the games.

I will admit, there was stuff in there that I couldn't explain, so there probably is a slight connection between the book and the game. I just don't think it's strong enough to bring in more spartans. I'm not bungie, and I don't claim to know for sure that there won't be any other spartans... so don't hold it to me if I'm wrong ;-).


[Edited on 6/16/2006]

  • 06.16.2006 9:25 PM PDT

C.R.E.A.M.

I hate it when people say the books and the game have no relevancy. They are the same story. If it weren't for the books, we would have no idea what Reach was, or anything about it. We would not know anything about the Covenant war, or the history of it. We would not know how or why or what the Pillar of Autumn was doing in Halo CE, and we would not know how Master Chief and Johnson made it home from being stranded in the middle of the galaxy, light years away from home, with no slipspace drive, no cryo storage, and not enough food or fuel to last more than a few weeks. We would not know anything about the Spartans past, or anything past for that matter. There is far more the the story of the Halo Universe than what the games cover. While they do tell some of the story, they are also mostly for fun. The majority of the storyline, is in the books, and the game follows them very closely on most aspects. The decision to leave out the other spartans was probably to avoid confusing the average player, and to keep the heroic image of the Master Chief. Or maybe they just didn't fit into game play?

  • 06.16.2006 9:26 PM PDT
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See, but I don't understand the argument of "nobody has read the books"... I mean, Bungie can EASILY catch people up with a quick cut scene. I mean, when the prophets showed up in Halo 2 (I hadn't read the books at this point), I wasn't like "WTF IM SO CONFUSED WHO R THEOSE GuySSs!!!!!11!", I was just like, "Oh, I guess those are the leaders of the Covenant". That was pretty much it. I didn't need a long explanation. I saw them on the screen, and I put two and two together. It's called deductive reasoning :)

Likewise, for Halo 3, you don't really need much explanation. I mean, really, if all they did was show three other Spartans walking with Master Chief, and he says "Good to have you back", that's really all that you need- coming to a work of fiction means accepting it on its own terms. Even if they didn't go into any background about who these Spartans were or why they were there, if I hadn't read the books, I might be like "Oh, I guess there are other Spartans", and that would be the end of my line of thought.

And I also don't buy the whole "they'll steal the spotlight" argument. In the books, NONE of the Spartans (and there are like 60 of them at one point) steal the spotlight from MC- because he is the most unique one. He's not the fastest, the strongest, or the smartest, but he is the most adaptable, and the one that REFUSES to lose. The other Spartans all look up to him, and know he'll find a way through- I feel like this could only HELP the spotlight on MC, rather than hurt it.

Also, as to the quote about there not being other Spartans in Halo 2- that was Halo 2- Halo 3 is a totally different game. I think since this is the conclusion to the storyline, I can't see a more important place for the last remaning Spartans to be than on Earth, finishing the Fight.

And as to the "No New Characters" thing- I keep hearing this, and I'm pretty sure it's total bs- besides, the remaining Spartans aren't "new" characters, anyway- they've been around sicne the first book :)

  • 06.16.2006 9:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: Holy Warrior
The fact that Master Chief would be facing innumerable legions of an inconquerable enemy would not make Master Chief seem invincible, the fact that Master Chief is invincible would make him seem invincible. He and Sergeant A. J. Johnson could defeat any force in the universe... but, I digress.

The main argument people seem to have is that Bungie said there wouldn't be characters from the books in the games. I would like to point out however that Bungie also said that they weren't working on Halo 3, so there you go. I mentioned in another thread, that elements unique to the books (Helljumpers), had made it into the game. To people who had read the books, this was an eye-catching reference. To those who hadn't, I would assume this appeared to be a nifty set of NPC's or perhaps something of little importance. I would like to point out that the world did not end.

Now I'll admit a Helljumper is not quite as Earth-shattering as a Spartan (they rarely crash land and survive) but I don't think a Spartan would overshadow the Master Chief as far as the plot is concerned. John 117 is the squad leader of his year, he is not the fastest, strongest, stealthiest, tallest, or smartest, but he is the luckiest. He has a knack for being in the right place at the right time with the right weapons, and he's a phenomenal leader and tactician.

Linda is mentioned in the Halo 2 manual. Expecting the fans to go out and purchase a set of novels in order to understand the plot is one thing, but hoping them to read two paragraphs in a manual provided for free jst doesn't seem like too much to ask. Granted she's in critical conditional and frozen in stasis, but I'm sure that future doctors could repair her while risking the least amount of harm, especially since she's a sturdy Spartan.

Finally, not much would be required to introduce and explain the presence of new Spartans in the game, I thin a cutscene or two, as well as one level will satisfy most casual gamers.

Anyone have anything to add.


GREAT point about the HellJumpers- haha, I like how you said "the world didn't end". Classic. That's the beauty of Bungie's games- they are such great storytellers, they know how to please both the hardcore and the casual gamer.

And by the way- if a dude is a casual gamer and doesn't care about the story ANYWAY, then what the effe is the big deal about there being another Spartan?

  • 06.16.2006 9:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: Holy Warrior
I would like to point out however that Bungie also said that they weren't working on Halo 3, so there you go.
But they never said that they weren't going to, they just denied making it. However they did say there weren't going to be anymore characters. I rest my case.

  • 06.16.2006 9:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: The Lone Heretic
Posted by: Holy Warrior
I would like to point out however that Bungie also said that they weren't working on Halo 3, so there you go.
But they never said that they weren't going to, they just denied making it. However they did say there weren't going to be anymore characters. I rest my case.


Can you find this quote? I honestly don't think it exists.

  • 06.16.2006 9:37 PM PDT
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  • 06.16.2006 9:41 PM PDT

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It has been stated by Joe Staten, that the books are cannon to the Halo Games, because both games, and all 3 novels come from the same Halo bible. They are one in the same.

Alright, if that's an actual quote, then I believe you. As I said, I wasn't completely sure, I just had a vague memory.

Yep.
* The Covenant Flagship; Ascendant Justice
* Covenant A.I.s
* Time warping crystal; we experience it's effects in Halo 2.

Could you please clarify when these appear in the game? I don't remember seeing them, but I could be wrong. (for the crystal explanation, see the 'atmosphere timeslip' thing...)

On the level where MC goes to High Charity (it starts with you facing off with two Brute Honor guards), Cortana mentions a strong Covenant AI construct.

The Ascendant Justice was presumaly sen in the openning cutscene, leading the Arbiter's fleet from REACH to follow the PoA.

* Johnson; Escaped Halo's blast
* Race: Prophets
* Race: Brutes*]Battle Rifle
* Brute shot
* SMG
* Magnum

This could be explained by Bungie wanting to keep some integrity, the books said johnson lived; so they might have just gone with it. Another possibility is that Bungie could have told the authors that they wanted Johnson alive, so Eric Nylund (he wrote First Strike... right?) could have come up with a plausible cause for his survival. Same thing with the other stuff, the authors could have been tipped of to its implementation.

Staten stated that the books go along with the game, and he worked closely together with Nylund and Dietz to make sure they stayed true to the Halo bible..so everything you see in the books comes from the Halo bible, same with the games.
* New feature: Dual Wielding
This could have been used by the books because it would sound cooler, then Bungie implemented it because it was an obvious next step in gameplay.

If it just sounded cooler, we would've most likely seen it in The Flood[i] as well ;) I think Bungie realized they wanted dual wielding in their next game, and asked them to include it..but again, straight from Bungie.
* Slipspace; jumping from inside an atmosphere
[i]Actually, there is nothing in the game that says you can't make slipspace jumps in the atmosphere, it was the book that said that you couldn't. Therefor, there could have never been such a conflict in the games.

Good point, but it's still something from the Halo bible introduced in the books that made it into the games..


=D

  • 06.16.2006 9:43 PM PDT
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  • 06.16.2006 9:44 PM PDT

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Posted by: The Lone Heretic
Posted by: Holy Warrior
I would like to point out however that Bungie also said that they weren't working on Halo 3, so there you go.
But they never said that they weren't going to, they just denied making it. However they did say there weren't going to be anymore characters. I rest my case.

No they didn't. Also, Bungie denied that they were making Halo 3, but they already admitted (after they finally announced it) that they have been working on it since Halo 2's completion. Doesn't quite add up to where they said "we are not currently working on halo 3"

  • 06.16.2006 9:46 PM PDT

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Posted by SkierLegend809

In order to answer your questions: ;) (Yes, I see MLG got to it first, this is my opinion though)

It has been stated by Joe Staten, that the books are cannon to the Halo Games, because both games, and all 3 novels come from the same Halo bible. They are one in the same.

Alright, if that's an actual quote, then I believe you. As I said, I wasn't completely sure, I just had a vague memory.


Yes, he did say that. Not necessarilly word for word, but he did say they are cannon to the games.

* The Covenant Flagship; Ascendant Justice
* Covenant A.I.s
* Time warping crystal; we experience it's effects in Halo 2.

Could you please clarify when these appear in the game? I don't remember seeing them, but I could be wrong. (for the crystal explanation, see the 'atmosphere timeslip' thing...)
- Ascendant Justice: Now, this is interesting. I believe in one of the older video clips of Bungie playing Midship (in the Bonus DVD, possibly), Midship's definition was changed from the "Ascendant Justice" to "Pious Inquisitor".. Not sure why, though. I could be wrong on that. But also, remember that there are many ships in the Covenant fleet..
- Covenant A.I.s: Cortana mentions something in the system on High Charity fighting back. A strong presence, some people assume to be an A.I., but that's not necessarily doctrine.
- Time Warping Crystal: He's wrong on that, this is true.

* Johnson; Escaped Halo's blast
* Race: Prophets
* Race: Brutes*]Battle Rifle
* Brute shot
* SMG
* Magnum

This could be explained by Bungie wanting to keep some integrity, the books said johnson lived; so they might have just gone with it. Another possibility is that Bungie could have told the authors that they wanted Johnson alive, so Eric Nylund (he wrote First Strike... right?) could have come up with a plausible cause for his survival. Same thing with the other stuff, the authors could have been tipped of to its implementation.


I agree, Bungie and Nylund are working together.. But that still means Bungie has influenced the books as well....

* New feature: Dual Wielding
This could have been used by the books because it would sound cooler, then Bungie implemented it because it was an obvious next step in gameplay.

I agree with this as well. Dual-wielding is just something the Spartan's did in the books, and doesn't necessarily give the reason to why it's in the game.

* Slipspace; jumping from inside an atmosphere
Actually, there is nothing in the game that says you can't make slipspace jumps in the atmosphere, it was the book that said that you couldn't. Therefor, there could have never been such a conflict in the games.

I think the books said it's not easily done and not very safe... I think it was more of a precaution, than a matter of "physics" etc.

.. That's hard to seperate the quotes from.. Sheesh. :P
I guess Cheewawawawa got to it first, but that's my opinion. :)

[Edited on 6/16/2006]

  • 06.16.2006 9:48 PM PDT
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I don't think that the "new" SPARTANS should be in H3, due to the fact that most of people that play Halo have not read the books. Most of my friends that play Halo don't even take the time to follow the storyline, they just press A right through the cutscene. However, I do believe that the other SPARTAN's should be in the movie, since the movie should obviously be directed towards the storyline.

  • 06.16.2006 9:51 PM PDT
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Well, never say never and technically the other spartans aren't "New characters" since the reader and the fans already know of their existance... they wouldn't be considered new.

If they do put them in i hope they don't turn the game into a cheezy squad shooted like Red Faction II, whose suckieness was barely outmatched by Pariah.

I personally would like to see then in somewere in the game... i doubt they would just leave the other SPARTANS out there rather then recall them for the final battle... well I can dream at least.

  • 06.16.2006 9:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: BeoVVulf
I don't think that the "new" SPARTANS should be in H3, due to the fact that most of people that play Halo have not read the books. Most of my friends that play Halo don't even take the time to follow the storyline, they just press A right through the cutscene. However, I do believe that the other SPARTAN's should be in the movie, since the movie should obviously be directed towards the storyline.


Wow. So if they just press A to get through the cutscenes, what does it matter if they don't know who the Spartans are? They won't know anything else that's going on, either. Bungie does NOT make cutscenes for these people.

  • 06.16.2006 10:04 PM PDT
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That point is really mooted, but I guess Pwnocchio already stated that.

If you don't follow Halo for the storyline, what the hell are you playing the campaign for anyway?

  • 06.16.2006 10:06 PM PDT
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I don't think you could actually qualify it as playing though, I mean they only played Campaign as a relative practice for Multiplayer. Which is a sad thing that Halo 2 is now only being purchased for its XBL/Multiplayer aspect, because the Halo series has one of the best storylines of any game IMO. If you haven't read any of the books and the SPARTAN's just suddenly show up in the game, they would be "new" hence why I stated them as "new" since I was stating the game aspect at the time. I don't honestly see why you would want to go see the movie(If it has the other SPARTAN's in it)if you haven't read the books. I think the books added a lot of dimension to the game, making it simply more of a game, and also giving me an actual GOOD book to read during study hall.

[Edited on 6/16/2006]

  • 06.16.2006 10:16 PM PDT
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Plus, a cutscene can simply introduce them. It only has done that for, I don't know...

Cortana
The Master Chief
Lord Hood
The Arbiter
Tartarus
Half-Jaw
The Prophets
Sargeant Johnson
Captain Jacob Keyes
Miranda Keyes
Fleet Admiral Harper
Private Jenkins
Private Mendoza
Gravemind
343 Guilty Spark
2401 Penitent Tangent
Alpha Halo
Delta Halo
The Helljumpers
In Amber Clad
The Pillar of Autumn
Earth and it's MAC Defense Grid
The Fall of Reach
The Forerunner Ship
The Flood
The Heretic Leader
High Charity
The Forerunner Gas Mines
The Covenant High Council
The Covenant Civil War

Need I go on?

If they can fit that much content into the cutscenes of two games, I think they can slip in four other Spartans.

  • 06.16.2006 10:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lance_Cortana
I don't think spartans should be in the games (and possibly the movies) because it breaks away from the awsome power of the Masterchief, it will make him seem less of a hero or main character.


i think overall that would take away Master Chiefs greatness, so i am agreeing with you... but if they find a way to implement the spartans so as to not take away chiefs fame, i think that would be acceptable.

  • 06.16.2006 10:24 PM PDT
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ok first things first... Bungie themselves have already stated that the books (all of which i've read) are not strictly paralell to the games.

Bungie has also said that there will be NO more spartans in Halo 3 other than the Chief. Read the Faq and their press release.

Now.. think... if they decided to start putting stuff in from the books like that stupid crystal or more spartans than the VAST majority of the gamers will NOT know what's going on because the games simply have no more room nor do they have time to explain stuff that happened at Reach (the crystal and other Spartans) which happened before the first game.

There will be NO crystal nor will there be Spartans other than the Chief!!!!

  • 06.16.2006 10:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: xXdeathomenXx
ok first things first... Bungie themselves have already stated that the books (all of which i've read) are not strictly paralell to the games.

Bungie has also said that there will be NO more spartans in Halo 3 other than the Chief. Read the Faq and their press release.

Now.. think... if they decided to start putting stuff in from the books like that stupid crystal or more spartans than the VAST majority of the gamers will NOT know what's going on because the games simply have no more room nor do they have time to explain stuff that happened at Reach (the crystal and other Spartans) which happened before the first game.

There will be NO crystal nor will there be Spartans other than the Chief!!!!


Hahaha, the FAQ doesn't say that at all- that's total bs. Where do you guys get this stuff? It's like everybody magically makes up a quote that Bungie said to support what they want.

  • 06.16.2006 11:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: SS_Zag1

I'm actually hoping they make Fall of Reach a movie.. It's got an incredible plot and great chracters. :)


Actually, I think the movie is gonig to be based off of the Fall of Reach.

Posted by: The Gunshark 360
"There are only two things that are infinite - The Universe and Human Stupidity, and I am not so sure about the Universe." - Albert Einstein


I think the real quote is "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Posted by: Pwnocchio
See, but I don't understand the argument of "nobody has read the books"... I mean, Bungie can EASILY catch people up with a quick cut scene. I mean, when the prophets showed up in Halo 2 (I hadn't read the books at this point), I wasn't like "WTF IM SO CONFUSED WHO R THEOSE GuySSs!!!!!11!", I was just like, "Oh, I guess those are the leaders of the Covenant". That was pretty much it. I didn't need a long explanation. I saw them on the screen, and I put two and two together. It's called deductive reasoning :)

Likewise, for Halo 3, you don't really need much explanation. I mean, really, if all they did was show three other Spartans walking with Master Chief, and he says "Good to have you back", that's really all that you need- coming to a work of fiction means accepting it on its own terms. Even if they didn't go into any background about who these Spartans were or why they were there, if I hadn't read the books, I might be like "Oh, I guess there are other Spartans", and that would be the end of my line of thought.

And I also don't buy the whole "they'll steal the spotlight" argument. In the books, NONE of the Spartans (and there are like 60 of them at one point) steal the spotlight from MC- because he is the most unique one. He's not the fastest, the strongest, or the smartest, but he is the most adaptable, and the one that REFUSES to lose. The other Spartans all look up to him, and know he'll find a way through- I feel like this could only HELP the spotlight on MC, rather than hurt it.

Also, as to the quote about there not being other Spartans in Halo 2- that was Halo 2- Halo 3 is a totally different game. I think since this is the conclusion to the storyline, I can't see a more important place for the last remaning Spartans to be than on Earth, finishing the Fight.

And as to the "No New Characters" thing- I keep hearing this, and I'm pretty sure it's total bs- besides, the remaining Spartans aren't "new" characters, anyway- they've been around sicne the first book :)


I agree. A simpe cutscene could introduce new Spartans. And for the people who are saying they will steal the spotlight, who says they have to be in the level with you? Maybe then can just show up in cutscenes or do other missions. If they are going to be in the game, maybe they'll be somewhere else in the level, where all of you are going for the same objective, but have different roles to where it won't steal the spotlight.

  • 06.17.2006 12:32 AM PDT

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