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This topic has moved here: Subject: I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.
  • Subject: I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.
Subject: I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

Key


Posted by: x Foman123 x
Who are you or any forum ninja to preach to us about the importance, sanctity, and preservation of the most holy of traditions that is a completely on-topic post? Have you seen some forum-ninja's responses to threads?*

If we ignore society's, let alone Bungie.net's problems, they will not improve. If a fire breaks out in your home, the logical course of action is not to turn your back, shut your eyes, plug your ears, and utter a chorus of "LA LA LA LA LA LA" that would make even the brattiest of 5-year-olds jealous, but to first put out the fire, and then figure out why it occurred and how it can be prevented in the future.

If bad threads, bad posts, bad behaviors, and bad habits are encouraged and played off as something to not worry about or, rather, as someone having harmless fun who needs to be let alone, and aren't looked at as something that needs to be fixed and addressed, then we're going to continue to have these bad posts, threads, habits, and behaviors.

Sometimes stupid people need to be told they're saying stupid things (if not that they're just stupid). If someone has blue paint on their forehead, they won't know it until you tell them, or they take a look at themselves** because they won't think anything is out of the ordinary.

*I was in the process of finding Forum Ninja off-topic posts but I figured this would be ill-advised considering it's a bit pointless, childish, and also goes against TU's rule.

**presumably in a mirror or some other reflection, but that part is irrelevant

[Edited on 08.09.2012 4:27 PM PDT]

  • 08.09.2012 4:24 PM PDT

@spawn031

"So much of what we do is ephemeral and quickly forgotten, even by ourselves, so it's gratifying to have something you have done linger in people's memories." John Williams

I agree completely. From all the forum boards I visit, this community seems to have the most trouble with this action. However, for some reason I feel that since bungie.net lacks website functions to make a user's presence "known", users feel that HAVE to post.

To you and me this may sound absurd, but there are people that want to make sure that everyone else knows they were there in some form or another. This also leads users to posting quick replies that often don't deal with the topic. Or just simply quoting another user and adding nothing to their post.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
If you think a thread sucks, DON'T POST IN IT. This has been common knowledge on bulletin boards and discussion forums in general for the last thirty years, and yet Bungie.net's community still can't seem to grasp the concept. There is no appropriate response. Not a gentle reminder, not a harsh insult, and not even "report and move on." Just. Don't. Post.

  • 08.09.2012 4:24 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Helveck
But is it not a disservice to the blatantly ignorant fool who is never given the opportunity to be scorned and shown his idiotic nature?
I see what you're doing here.

The sad thing is that what you're saying rings true enough with enough of the community that it is important for us to make sure that everyone is well-aware of why this concept is wrong.

  • 08.09.2012 4:27 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Helveck
But is it not a disservice to the blatantly ignorant fool who is never given the opportunity to be scorned and shown his idiotic nature?

I consider Howard Stern to be a self-serving idiot. But I can't deny that there are plenty of people who consider him to be (if not a genius) at least worthy of their attention and time.

So, what do I do? I don't listen to the man, I don't know who his sponsors are, I don't contribute to his social-ecostructure, and as a result I am blissfully unaware of anything that is occurring in his career/life. I also gain the benefit of never having my blood pressure raised or risking any rages over any of his antics.

Are you suggesting that I would be doing myself and the rest of the world a service if I were to spend any time or effort to convince him and his fans that he's a tool? Because I don't see any possible value in expending energy in such an endeavor.

  • 08.09.2012 4:28 PM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...

It seems a common theme is being challenged here. And oddly I value both sides... The side of sometimes ignoring and filtering. Then there is the side that challenges that by illustrating to someone their idiotic behavior.

Neither side will ever be the "better choice". I think we should just accept that. And I am certainly not telling people to go around telling everyone they think is stupid, that they are stupid. I'm really just asking if it is suitable in specific instances.

  • 08.09.2012 4:29 PM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...

Refer to my last post for a bit more clarification on my stance. But are you saying it is wrong to show someone when they are being idiotic and how dumb it is to do so?
Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: Helveck
But is it not a disservice to the blatantly ignorant fool who is never given the opportunity to be scorned and shown his idiotic nature?
I see what you're doing here.

The sad thing is that what you're saying rings true enough with enough of the community that it is important for us to make sure that everyone is well-aware of why this concept is wrong.

  • 08.09.2012 4:32 PM PDT

I spend too much time here.. too much time indeed.

I tweet?

Posted by: x Foman123 x
If you think a thread sucks, DON'T POST IN IT. This has been common knowledge on bulletin boards and discussion forums in general for the last thirty years, and yet Bungie.net's community still can't seem to grasp the concept.

I'd like to bring up the idea of an ignore/hide user option for the forums, to give people who just can't find the will to ignore stupidity a way to deal with it besides having to lash out at the poster.

  • 08.09.2012 4:32 PM PDT

"There's daggers in men's smiles." - Donalbain, Macbeth, Act II, scene iii

Posted by: Helveck
It seems a common theme is being challenged here. And oddly I value both sides... The side of sometimes ignoring and filtering. Then there is the side that challenges that by illustrating to someone their idiotic behavior.

Neither side will ever be the "better choice". I think we should just accept that. And I am certainly not telling people to go around telling everyone they think is stupid, that they are stupid. I'm really just asking if it is suitable in specific instances.


Anything that bumps a 'bad thread' to the top of the forum isn't suitable in any situation, ever. I don't like the thread in question any more than you do, and thus, I certainly don't want to see it any longer than I have to.

If you feel the need to harshly criticize someone for their behavior, do it via a PM. That keeps it between you and the idiot, and keeps the rest of us out of it.

  • 08.09.2012 4:32 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.


Posted by: Helveck
It seems a common theme is being challenged here. And oddly I value both sides... The side of sometimes ignoring and filtering. Then there is the side that challenges that by illustrating to someone their idiotic behavior.

Neither side will ever be the "better choice". I think we should just accept that. And I am certainly not telling people to go around telling everyone they think is stupid, that they are stupid. I'm really just asking if it is suitable in specific instances.

I confess, that I am sometimes guilty of replying to someone's ignorance or foolishness with a snarky or a sarcastic comment.

But I maintain that it is deliberately done without malice, without scorn, and without anger.

For example, the member who wanted to "clear halo of retards" was told by me that he had my vote! But I believe that such replies I have made were never intended to "let an idiot know in no uncertain terms just how much of an idiot they are". That is (to me) a step too far and doesn't help anyone or anything.

  • 08.09.2012 4:34 PM PDT

Posted by: A Bit Of Zero
This thread would have appealed to me more if it was written with crayons.
Posted by: King Dutchy
I broke one of the cords for my X11s because I couldn't get past the final American course in Doritos Crash Course.

Posted by: Helveck
The more belligerent and heavy headed individuals don't seek patience. They don't care, they don't listen to direction or respect when someone is trying to kindly take the time to teach them in a very positive manner. It is for these individuals I reserve the preference of stating to them your observations of their stupidity.

If people aren't willing to listen to people who are patient with them, they certainly wont be willing to listen to people who have become impatient with them, certainly not in the form of text on a forum anyway.

When you meet people like that they can't be taught just using words, they need something more tangible to relate to ( take the naughty step for example) which is why, when you meet people like that on a forum, it's best just to move on because there isn't anything you can do with text on a screen to help them.

[Edited on 08.09.2012 4:35 PM PDT]

  • 08.09.2012 4:34 PM PDT

No, ExcessiveFaun6 is not my real gamertag.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cortana: The message just repeats. "Regret, Regret, Regret."
Miranda: Any idea what it means?
Sgt. Johnson: Dear Humanity... we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!
Marines: Hoo-rah!

I'm just going to weigh in on this with what might be a clarifying and more delineating post.

Firstly, I want to point out that one of the greatest rhetorical fallacies in the realm of communication of thought is that of argumentum ad hominem, or an attempt to negate or weaken an opponent's argument by attacking certain characteristics or unrelated beliefs of the person supporting it. This is a rhetorical fallacy very close at heart to this thread, but I believe it also represents the dividing line in settling (or perhaps clarifying) this issue.

I believe that if a thread is created with the intention of being stupid, or is so blatantly devoid of premeditation so as to be entirely incoherent, the best and only course of action is to ignore it. To attack the substance of the thread by calling the OP an idiot and using big vocabulary words to insult his intelligence - however justified - is both pedantic and a textbook example of ad hominem.

The exception to this rule I believe only applies in situations where the OP is new to the forums; a firm yet relenting tone can go a long way if you catch a new poster who is violating quite a few of the forum rules at once, such as proposing a feature for Halo 4 in the Community forum. You are not attacking his argument by insulting him, but rather making a lasting impression on this very impressionable new member, and if done with tact, it can be a boon to the health of the forum.

Note that I use the phrase "firm yet relenting"; this is key. I think that a lot of the sample responses Helvek gave in the OP were much too harsh. But I think a little less than buddy-buddy tone can be helpful when correcting naive, yet sweepingly violate posts.

  • 08.09.2012 4:37 PM PDT

Subject: If you saw a meteor coming toward Earth, what would you do?Posted by: juniorbandit96
Butter my ass, turn around, spread open my butt cheeks, and say "Right here mutha-blam!-a!!"

Join Planetary Annihilation and Speed Haven

Posted by: AutobahnRacer
If you feel the need to harshly criticize someone for their behavior, do it via a PM. That keeps it between you and the idiot, and keeps the rest of us out of it.
Now we're back to the idea that someone needs to be seen. I see a few ways to deal with this that aren't against a groups opinion.
1) PM Notification system. Makes it easier to see a PM
2) Thread lock feature. Locks a thread after a pre-set number of users down-votes the OP (Separate button for that). Then sends a PM to the thread creator that it was locked by the members because they disagree with the original post.

  • 08.09.2012 4:38 PM PDT

Perpetual Ninja in training.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

DMH

Los Paranoias

It boils down to the fact that this community is very young, in so many ways.

This forum in particular is filled with a lot of the same personalities, and all it takes is one wrong post in a thread before it goes south. This is due in part to the speed in which threads here move. Threads on the Community Forum are slow, and deliberate. There is much to discuss, and just as much to understand. At the same time, this has many opposite reactions.

Members here tend to often read a given post as they wish for it to translate, which can then be twisted into something hostile. At the same time, there are plenty of times when a user makes a given claim with no true logical thought behind it, to which you all like to call stupid.

The problem in this instance is that, instead of politely correcting, or even just ignoring, this specific community can, at times, make incorrect statements become personal offenses. This, of course, is tell tale of a young community, one that does NOT take the time to talk things out in a logical and calm manner.

In the end, just because someone seems to be an idiot, doesn't mean you gotta tell them that.

  • 08.09.2012 4:38 PM PDT
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  • Fabled Mythic Member

R.I.P. DeathPimp. Never Ending Respect.

"Posted by: Kickimanjaro
I'm trying to become an '04, but it's not working too well."

Report and Move On


I can't help but post that in threads that are dedicated to... let's say, the flood, saying that the forum is overrun at that particular moment in time with spam.


As for actual threads that i feel need to be reported, i can't help but want to post 'report and move on' to let others know that they should stop replying to the damn thread. I know it's all in vein, but it helps me to believe that i'm doing my part. I would love to contribute to the forums being cleaner. I know i have my report button and my ignore feature [brain power, guys], but that only takes it so far. Every so often i PM Qbix specifically, especially in the early early early hours of my PST morning to say 'hey if you have time, check this thread', but hell.. He's only one dude, and he does indeed have a life. Only so much he can do.

To aim more for the topic at hand, i've definitely become more of a sarcastic D-bag over the past year or two. I've been inspired by many a thing to be so harsh, and at points in time i've had to apologize to members for being so negative. Sometimes people just gotta check themselves before they wreck themselves.

  • 08.09.2012 4:38 PM PDT

@spawn031

"So much of what we do is ephemeral and quickly forgotten, even by ourselves, so it's gratifying to have something you have done linger in people's memories." John Williams

Posted by: AutobahnRacer
If you feel the need to harshly criticize someone for their behavior, do it via a PM. That keeps it between you and the idiot, and keeps the rest of us out of it.
But that is still just stirring the pot. Even if you take the matters privately, the situation is still growing. Eventually the problem would evolve beyond just 2 users and more will have to get involved.

Posted by: Specter Wolf
I'd like to bring up the idea of an ignore/hide user option for the forums, to give people who just can't find the will to ignore stupidity a way to deal with it besides having to lash out at the poster.
That discussion has been beaten to death. Ignoring a user's post isn't difficult. I basically have my own ignore feature, and I use it quite frequently.

  • 08.09.2012 4:38 PM PDT

Posted by: True Underdog
all it does is deter new members from posting in a community that they're obviously excited about, while simultaneously feeding the egos of some of the lifers here.
I disagree with you. I don't think it's a matter of new members posting threads they're excited about- in fact I think that's almost totally irrelevant in this case. New members can post threads that are stupid. Yet they won't be called out for it. Why? They're new! That's OK. People make mistakes.

... But when you've been here. And you are making deliberately ridiculous threads? There needs to be SOME line for the sake of the community in general and the user's future as well. The moderators can't draw the line. The posts/ threads are within the rules, and I wouldn't expect you to act on them. Us normal people are the ones that draw those lines between stupid, new, normal, and awesome in the public eye.

Though we could argue about this all day long and neither of us would change our stance, this is just my two cents.Well I feel that being open to opposing opinions is important when having a discussion. I've changed my mind in arguments before. It just doesn't happen often. To have a proper argument/discussion, I think you need to be open minded about the other side. Being set in 'I won't change my mind' doesn't quite do that.

And, after all, as long as nobody is attacking the other person I think we'll be alright, neh?

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Hang on, burrito; I think you need to recheck your position on this issue.
It's OK. I saw the pre-edit. I take no offense. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if it makes you feel better I'm not deliberately being difficult in the 'Mythics Rock' character I'm so fond of. I do honestly believe this.

You acknowledge that ignoring a thread you don't like is the right thing to do, but then, somehow, you go on to justify why you continue to post in threads you don't like.
No. I acknowledge that it is the right thing to TRY. But history has shown it does not WORK. Time has shown that these people do get it in their heads that it's silly once told so enough though. Don't we all remember the raad face, raaascal, and spartain ken threads being posted a half dozen times a day it seemed? Some of them got pretty silly. It wasn't the quantity that was irritating. It was that there was such a quantity of threads with such little quality. In the end it all comes down to quality- I think that is what it's all about.

That is why I feel people, eventually, must resort to actually taking some sort of action. In light of the thread that broke the camel's back, I am Batman.


Achronos favors a "forum filter" idea precisely because ignoring a bad thread is the right way to respond to it.I disagree. Rather, I see its purpose as something along the lines of... The forum filter should be implemented because people like me ignoring it on its own does NOT work. Ignoring the threads does NOT reduce the threads of such low quality we see. If EVERYBODY ignored? Then yes, it would be better because people really WOULD give up. But we know that won't ever happen. As such, these threads persist no matter if some of us did honestly try ignoring the silly threads. This is the point where people take action into their own hands I believe.

The report button is an already-implemented feature that is meant to accomplish this purpose.No immediate visual sense of relief hurts this one. Though if you guys are capable of seeing what threads a user has reported, I think you'd find a fair number of posts in my 'report history.' I use it.
If the best way to deal with a bad thread were to post to ridicule the OP and his ideas, Achronos would be looking at automated ways to ridicule the OP and his ideas. Not automated ways to ignore a bad post or a bad user. How do you not see this?The best way would be for EVERYBODY to ignore it or to make it so we never have to see it (without resorting to lessening our own sense of enjoyment after all these years by leaving the forum, something I have no intention of doing). As this is not the case, we have to take the next best thing- getting the user to simply stop on his own.

Your opinions are your ownWell that's just, like, your opinion, man.
to a person who has created a thread on something they find interesting, your opinions are worthless.Well they wouldn't make the thread if the input of others was worthless in their eyes I think. But I digress. If they genuinely find it interesting, I think others would too. But somethings like what we've been seeing? Do you really think that much thought and interest is placed in the subject on their part? It isn't like there is some grey area for attacking a thread. If you aren't sure, you don't call it out. It's that simple. But for truly, completely obvious ones? Oh yeah. All over it.

  • 08.09.2012 4:39 PM PDT

Welcome to the town of "Diligence." I'm Mayor Due.

I think if this were a thread on dealing with human psychology in everyday life, I would completely agree with everything OP said.

Having said that, this is still an open forum to the public and no one who visits this website should be subjected to any sort of psychcological corrective measures by anyone here.

Just my opinion! And sorry to interupt.

PS I R Welder, sory bout the spellin



[Edited on 08.09.2012 4:45 PM PDT]

  • 08.09.2012 4:39 PM PDT

The world is not beautiful: And that, in a way, lends it a sort of beauty.

~Kino's Journey

Why not implement a "sage" function.

Basically it lets you reply to a thread(maybe to inform the OP, ala Helvick's idea) but it doesn't bump the thread and keep it alive(ala the mod's idea).

  • 08.09.2012 4:40 PM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...


Posted by: SkilPhil
If people aren't willing to listen to people who are patient with them, they certainly wont be willing to listen to people who have become impatient with them...


I wouldn't call illustrating a persons stupidity to them a form of impatience. You as the observer are going, "That person should really see how dumb they look." You show them, tell them it's stupid, and leave it at that. Some may not care, but it could be argued that some might take a step back and say, "Wow, that was stupid of me."

Is that not possible? I mean I know it can be hit or miss, but no more than patience would work. And it may be more effective than ignoring them.

  • 08.09.2012 4:42 PM PDT
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Do you like Yax? I do.

Posted by: Helveck
Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances.
While the argument could be made that you're trying to "help" someone by pointing out their "stupid" threads/posts, I think it would be far more beneficial to simply ignore them.

If everyone ignored threads they thought were stupid, the authors of those threads would most likely notice fewer replies to their threads and perhaps take a hint that their threads weren't worth discussing in the first place. Most of the time, the "stupid" threads are filled with people arguing with the OP about whether or not the thread is against the rules.

If you truly wish to guide an ignorant user in the right direction, you could send them a private message.

[Edited on 08.09.2012 4:44 PM PDT]

  • 08.09.2012 4:43 PM PDT

@trueunderdog

Chapter

Narwhallace Smithington: Gone, but not forgotten. Never approve of anything lil guy. <3
Furious George: The new -blam!-

Burrito, the term "new" is relative. Some people never venture to this forum and when they see that their voices aren't drowned out by "noise", they take a liking to this forum, only to be talked down to by jackwagons. Some of which, talk about how the other boards are hostile/bad.

  • 08.09.2012 4:43 PM PDT

Key

Just figured I'd leave this here. An obvious example of Achronos telling somebody that they're stupid and saying stupid things very openly and blatantly in a forum post, not a PM, and not ignoring the post and moving on.

This is, as anyone who's seen him post knows, one of many, I just haven't bothered to get any others. This one just jumped out at me.

And yes, I know. It's his website and he can do what he wants and post off-topic and yada yada yada. But that doesn't mean that clearly he thinks that, for whatever reason, this approach can be and has been and will continue to be (unless his opinion has changed) an effective way of fixing a situation in which a stupid person says a stupid thing.

  • 08.09.2012 4:43 PM PDT

Thesaurus.com

A harsh or insulting reply to a post I make, no matter how stupid my post is, will not make me want to become more knowledgeable.

It just doesn't work the way the OP wants it to. There aren't any good excuses to act that way towards someone.

  • 08.09.2012 4:44 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Helveck
But are you saying it is wrong to show someone when they are being idiotic and how dumb it is to do so?
Yes. If I used this thread to tell you that you are an idiot and stupid (and I do not think that and I am not implying that at all, but just for hypothetical purposes), how likely would you be to think "oh wow I must actually be an idiot"? What about CrazzySnipe, who also favors this course of action?

Not at all, I would wager. Instead, you would come back with reasons that you're not an idiot, and intimate instead that maybe I must be an idiot. The argument would go on, and others would join in, and soon the thread that I didn't want to see discussed in the first place would grow and grow. For example, just look at the thread that spawned this discussion in the first place. A 100-reply-long discussion isn't going to discourage anybody.

In the history of the internet, nobody has ever successfully convinced another person that they're stupid. You can't and won't do it, no matter how many of "you" gang up on the person. There is, therefore, no scenario in which posting your opinions on the "stupidity" of another person's thread has ever had a positive effect.

On the other hand, there are numerous scenarios, even right here on these very boards, where a thread with zero or very few replies (whether as a result of the thread being boring or as the result of a moderator lock) results in positive behavior change over time by the OP.

To me, these observations are basic online community sociology, guys. Not too complicated.

[Edited on 08.09.2012 4:50 PM PDT]

  • 08.09.2012 4:45 PM PDT

@trueunderdog

Chapter

Narwhallace Smithington: Gone, but not forgotten. Never approve of anything lil guy. <3
Furious George: The new -blam!-

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55


False equivalency. Achronos wasn't attacking the OP for the reasons we're discussing. He was addressing a reply in the thread.

  • 08.09.2012 4:45 PM PDT