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This topic has moved here: Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
  • Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
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Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Glasslands portrayed pretty much everybody completely differently from the way they were in earlier books. It's like they didn't even bother finding out what each character was like.
Travis said that she did very little to no resreach on the Halo lore because she wanted to write Glasslands from unbias view...that book is very unbias.



-Nate'


Yeah, that figures. Maybe in the next book Mendez is going to be riding unicorns and giving out balloons to the Spartan recruits.

  • 08.16.2012 1:46 PM PDT


Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Glasslands portrayed pretty much everybody completely differently from the way they were in earlier books. It's like they didn't even bother finding out what each character was like.
Travis said that she did very little to no resreach on the Halo lore because she wanted to write Glasslands from unbias view...that book is very unbias.



-Nate'


She also outright said she rebuilt characters.

  • 08.16.2012 1:47 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Glasslands portrayed pretty much everybody completely differently from the way they were in earlier books. It's like they didn't even bother finding out what each character was like.
Travis said that she did very little to no resreach on the Halo lore because she wanted to write Glasslands from unbias view...that book is very unbias.



-Nate'


She also outright said she rebuilt characters.
Hey there Cmdr, always fun speaking with you. Also yes hse did rebuild what other people built up for years and destroyed EVERYTHING about the Haloverse and she doesn't seem to be sorry for what she did.



-Nate'

  • 08.16.2012 1:53 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Glasslands portrayed pretty much everybody completely differently from the way they were in earlier books. It's like they didn't even bother finding out what each character was like.
Travis said that she did very little to no resreach on the Halo lore because she wanted to write Glasslands from unbias view...that book is very unbias.



-Nate'


She also outright said she rebuilt characters.




In her Star Wars novels and her Gears of War novels, that was kinda ok since they didn't have as much lore as Halo does. If you write a book about Halo, you better know all the basics at least, like how the characters aced in the past, what everything is called, etc.

  • 08.16.2012 1:54 PM PDT


Posted by: And Im Here Too
Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Glasslands portrayed pretty much everybody completely differently from the way they were in earlier books. It's like they didn't even bother finding out what each character was like.
Travis said that she did very little to no resreach on the Halo lore because she wanted to write Glasslands from unbias view...that book is very unbias.



-Nate'


Yeah, that figures. Maybe in the next book Mendez is going to be riding unicorns and giving out balloons to the Spartan recruits.
-blam!- it...you might give Travis ideas, she already proved that she'll destory cannon just so she can write what she likes.



-Nate'

  • 08.16.2012 1:55 PM PDT


Posted by: ThatOneJedi

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Glasslands portrayed pretty much everybody completely differently from the way they were in earlier books. It's like they didn't even bother finding out what each character was like.
Travis said that she did very little to no resreach on the Halo lore because she wanted to write Glasslands from unbias view...that book is very unbias.



-Nate'


She also outright said she rebuilt characters.




In her Star Wars novels and her Gears of War novels, that was kinda ok since they didn't have as much lore as Halo does. If you write a book about Halo, you better know all the basics at least, like how the characters aced in the past, what everything is called, etc.
From what I heard, she pissed off Lucas to the point where he fired her himself just of all the rewrites she was doing to the Star Wars cannon, to the point where she destroyed cannon that was already done and finished with just so her books would work out on the SWverse.



-Nate'

  • 08.16.2012 1:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: grey101
There was nothing dangerous in the bubble to be of concern to her. Um i picked up everything and more in the forerunner novels yet i seem so blind to glasslands o mighty one.
So is Halsey a Spartan? And here I thought she was a sixty-something year old woman. She fled to Onyx because she was afraid and wanted to protect her Spartans. If not for her Spartans, she would have died within minutes on Onyx.

She needed them as much as they needed her, although I think she may have needed them slightly more.What is there to elaborate on Ackrsons ethics of the spartan III program? I don't know why you are trying to act like you are some one with god like understanding of the novel and everybody's concerns on the novel are meager. But i would calm down with the superiority complex and just have a light discussion. Do a chart on the spartan II/III program and see how many lines ackerson cut compared to halsey. See how much he cared for his spartans compared to halsey.How many chapters of the every Halo novel has Ackerson been in? I want you to answer this question. Don't dodge it like you do every other one, or give a vague answer.

Ackerson is a supporting character and is of little relevance. In what little we know about him, he ruthless and his Halsey's professional rival. Aside from the armor, what corners was he specifically cutting? Shorter training period? If we're to take everything at face value, which you have always seemed to do, then we know that Kurt's training regimen was more intense than the S-IIs.

Can you refute that with facts? And by facts, I mean don't mean ego-driven statements about Halsey claiming they're "sub-standard."
This book would have been much better if it was showing the pros and cons of ackerson instead of trying to make it seem like halsey did this random project all by herself without any military backing or support.Nobody is trying to say that.

Read the book over again. Read my post over again. Everyone has their individual reasons for hating Halsey, and from each of their perspectives (save for Mendez), they all make sense. I don't understand who told you that or where you got the eyesight to see inside my head.Your arguement always amounts to "but it saved humanity!" No grey area, no room for debate. She could have glassed an entire planet herself, but so long as it was for the greater good, nobody is allowed to speak a bad word.slanderJesus christ, they're not real people. is unnecessary and non consistent with what was established prior. Can i get some quotes on the "multiple viewpoints"?i don't recall anybody in the novel support halsey and showing the pros of her actions, i saw nobody state "we wouldn't have won the war without Spartans".MAL. MAL SAID IT. I GAVE YOU THE DAMN PAGE NUMBER.

This is why I talk down to you, grey. You can't even address my points!with the notion that people are complaining because they don't have the brain matter to understand.In your case, you apparently don't.

Answer my questions, address my point head on, and then I'll stop speaking to you like you're a child...maybe.



1. I am talking about the bubble not GoO

2.Not that many, and what is with the random attacks? you have no reason not to be civil with me.


Ackerson is a supporting character and is of little relevance.


How is that true in any sense when he created the spartan III project and was the direct competitor of halsey? Just because he didn't get a lot of screen time doesn't make him any-less of a character.

He cut the genetic markers,lowered the age,gave them less equipment,less training time. Intense training =/=better training, the SIIIs got slaughtered because they weren't able to fight alone (the equipment didn't help) and they couldn't quickly adapt to the situation or reform cohesion. That would be a big red flag if any commander had an op like that even if it was a success.



3. You might not be but because of the novel people now think halsey did everything by herself just because she could. That is my issue with the novel it didn't explain why the spartan II project was started and the benefits of the project. It leaves out the innies and the pre-covenant human issues that led to the founding of ORION and then the SII project. If it set all that up and then got on halsey i would be fine and praise the book because it shows why it was done,what it did, and then lets you decide if it was the right notion or not.

There reasons for hating halsey aren't informed ones Primo, Vaz and Mal do not know the history behind it and why it was done. The average civillian will not know these things either.


4.I don't understand them "not being real people" has to do with the book not giving the reader the option of what side of the wing they want. Not to mention that isn't always my argument so you should stop acting like it is, especially when you just blatantly ignored anton and others when they post. UM, ackerson has more grey area than halsey does primo.




5. A single person isn't what i was getting at. For as many people that are anti halsey there should be a decent base that acknowledges her achievements and actually stand up for her.
That is an immature reason to act like you are especially since you don't answer my points all the time but i don't flare out for it. For somebody that always speaks about them "not being real people" you sure do get upset every easily on this topic.


6. Generally in conversations if somebody spends more time with insults than points they are insecure about their position so they try to get off topic and make the other person look bad.
I personally don't care how you address me since it is highly immature and i don't care for the subject enough to retaliate in a similar matter. But if that becomes your main topic instead of the book then i'll just report you.

[Edited on 08.17.2012 8:31 AM PDT]

  • 08.16.2012 3:36 PM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Since Vaz is clearly okay with the S3's being young AND suicide soldiers, I can only assume his 'moral compass' is seriously fubar.
The other Spartans - the ones they called the Spartan-IIIs - were huddled in the senior rates' mess with Devereaux, who was plying them with coffee and a mountain of snacks. So these were the expendable suicide troops, the colonial canon fodder. Damn, they were teenagers: none of them could have been older than eighteen. If they'd been pumped full of growth hormones and ceramics like Naomi, then it hadn't worked. They were just regular-sized kids. One of the girls was so small and fresh-face that she didn't look old enough to be out of school, let alone given firearms. She sttared at Vaz like a malevolent ferret and didn't say a word.

And we're the good guys, are we?

...blah blah blah, dialogue that doesn't matter all that much...

It was just making Vaz angrier by the second. For a moment, he got a glimpse of why so many of the colonies hated Earth. He'd had enough of this Spartan crap.


That was the first Vaz had encountered the S-IIIs, and if I'm not mistaken, the second time they were even mentioned in a Kilo-Five chapter. The first time was on page 216, and Osman only said it in passing.

I like to think it's entirely possible that he didn't throw a fit about S-III because meeting the child soldiers he'd been reeling from was a bit much to take in. That, and they were in the room at the time.Parangosky hails Ackerson I believe, and says he gets a heroes treatment in death while Halsey just gets a name on a plaque."Ackerson has one too. Galling as it must be for you, he died a hero." - Parangosky, pg. 435

Do you recall how Ackerson died? He was captured after a defeat against the Covenant Loyalists on Mars. He was tortured, but managed to send the Covenant on a wild goose chase to find an artifact that didn't exist, slowing some of their efforts on Earth. When it was all said and done, he laughed in his captors' faces and was beheaded.

The guy was a bastard, no doubt, with a record as bad as, if not worse than Halsey. However, Parangosky was right; he did kind of die a hero's death.

In light of what I just said, Ackerson is never even mentioned among Kilo-Five. For all Vaz knows, Halsey was responsible for both Spartan project. Sure, Osman knows the truth, which is also why she's wasn't the one standing outside Halsey's cell, locked and loaded.

I like to think Osman doesn't say much about S-III because it's not essential to the mission, and above all, she never had a personal stake in it. With Halsey, it's all personal. All of these characters are flawed and act in their own interests at some point. I don't know if Osman failed to make the distinction between S-II and S-III and who ran them to her squad intentionally, but if she did, it may have been to groom those under her command to hate Halsey.

And yes, grey, it's completely realistic for Osman to resent Halsey, rehabilitated or not. Sure, Halsey may have developed the therapy to rehabilitate the Spartan washouts, but those were still years of their lives that were taken away from them.
Elites?I agree that the Elites aren't written very consistently in Halo lore. You have that one from The Flood that was an absolute coward at times, and then you have the more commonly-accepted ones from The Cole Protocol that were honor-bound, and the ones from Glasslands fall somewhere in between.

So I'll give you that.
So magically every other viewpoint is negative?Keep in mind that the majority of those viewpoints are heavily influenced by two people that really don't like Halsey. (Osman and Parangosky)

The others aren't ONI Spooks by nature, so when only presented one (and admittedly unflattering) side of the story, of course they're going to be high and mighty.

They weren't alive during the insurrection. In their eyes, what could be worse than the Covenant? The only reason they know for fighting is survival, so anything less than that is going to seem pretty insignificant, you follow?

And again, and I know it's cheesy, Vaz has something going on for Naomi, so everything he learns about S-II is worsened by that.Only, Halsey is not the only person we've seen perspectives of. Hell, IIRC, Lord Hood outright verbally smashed Ackerson into the ground for being disrespectful to Halsey.And Hood thinks Halsey is dead, right? Parangosky and a few select others in ONI are the only ones that know of Halsey's survival.

They're not going to do a round table of every character in Halo lore to present their opinion on Catherine Halsey. Yet was fully rehabilitated, and able to live a normal life. No thanks to Halsey's medical research.Read above somewhere.And before then? Never says anything good about HalseyOn page 112, after asking of Master Chief's whereabouts, she then asks if Halsey's been recovered.

On page 347, after learning that Halsey had very blatantly committed war crimes and ran off with billions of dollars worth of UNSC property, Naomi says, "Ma'am, Dr. Halsey would have had a good reason for doing all that. Do we know what explanation she's given?" (She's giving her the benefit of doubt)

On page 351, she says "Dr. Halsey was everything to us. We thought the world of her. But I can't tell you what I feel right now."

On the very next page, she says to Vaz and Mal, "Don't take it out on Halsey. Please. I know you're all angry, but don't do anything dumb."

Sounds conflicted to me.
Yet he is also perfectly fine with the Spartan 3's being both young and suicide soldiers. Makes perfect sense right? Hate Halsey, be fine with your boss sending teenagers on suicide missions.Again, it can be assumed that he doesn't know who Ackerson is, and may possibly even assume that Halsey is behind both generations of Spartans.
Might've missed that point, but obviously he didn't make that much an impact.Upon further reading, Mal seems to be the only one able to stomach any of what he learns as a new resident of the intelligence community.

"If she's right, then we used child soldiers," Phillips said. "We kidnapped them from their families before performing experiments on them. Christ...and this is my government?"

"You think anyone would care as long as we won?" (Mal)

"Actually, yes, they would." Phillips was doing his embarrassing gesture again, one arm folded across his chest and his free hand pinching his top lip, as if he worried about disagreeing. "I think the public would give a pretty big damn about that."

"Don't bank on it," Mal said. He seemed underwhelmed by it, which wasn't like him at all. "Outrage fatigue set in years ago. The colonies are a long way from Sydney. And they weren't always on our side."
(215)

And then there's the bit toward the end, on page 404, where Mal finishes his beer with Chief Mendez, and tries to justify S-II using the exact arguments commonly used here.

I'm running out of characters, so I'll leave that one up to you.Only, ALL previous lore implied or stated the clones were known by all of ONI, aka, part of the plan. She hates Halsey because Halsey had the GUTS to give the families CLOSURE, instead of being forced to wonder forever "What happened to my child"Eh, keep in mind whose perspective the previous lore is written in. I don't have TFoR on hand, but I'm pretty sure the clones are only addressed in Halsey's inner monologue.

And yes, Halsey feels guilty, as she should. However, she's frigid, ambitious, and a control freak. None of that is new. Sure, she feels bad on the inside, but this is a woman who would have rather worked Kurt for details on S-III while dangling her cooperation above his head while their lives were on the line than play nice.

Sure, she feels bad on the inside, but all anyone else can see is a stone cold -blam!-. (And although it pains me to reference it, let us not forget Reach, eh?

It's pretty easy to see why those around her might think she did it to salvage her own humanity, and the jury is still out on that.Also, I have to wonder how the -blam!- clones escaped Parangosky's notice for so long, since she BOASTED about having hacked into ALL of Halsey's personal files, implying she had done it long ago.Yeah, I'm not going to argue with you there. That was a slip up, and I like to think that, being the genius she is, Halsey did hide the clones for some time.

However, some further reading to those who think it's all about the clones, check out page 49. Parangosky is legitimately pissed about Halsey's abduction and fleeing to Onyx. She's obviously been holding onto the knowledge about the clones, and now it's just the cherry on top. Onyx was the tipping point for the Vice Admiral's patience.
Mendez was utterly changedMendez is another one of those characters that I feel we didn't hear from enough to say that. Hypocrite? Oh hell yes. He has as much blood on his hands as Halsey, and I like to think my Na­zi SS comparison holds true with how he claims innocence by saying he was following orders and going with the flow. Mal tries to rationalize that at one point too. (One more point for Mal being pro-SII)

I hate how everyone gives him a pass though. Vaz puts up somewhat of a fuss, but oh man, don't cross a senior NCO, even if he has participated in inhuman activities! (Traviss took that respect for the rank too far, in my opinion.)
Parangosky has the bigger ego, and I'll take a damn Conscience over stupidity any day of the week.Again, they're both despicable people and full-blooded ONI, it's just that Halsey thinks she's above that. High and mighty, etc.

  • 08.17.2012 5:04 PM PDT

I'll cut this short to stem the rant-length posts.

A: If Vaz thought Halsey did this all by herself, and never connected the dots (Spartans work under ONI, so ONI probably had a hand in it) and STILL worked for them happily after, quoting from the book, going. o these were the expendable suicide troops, the colonial canon fodder. Damn, they were teenagers: none of them could have been older than eighteen and They were just regular-sized kids. One of the girls was so small and fresh-face that she didn't look old enough to be out of school, let alone given firearms. I seriously question his morals, especially since I believe HE was the one described as having a high moral compass.

(I'll give you Ackerson isn't mentioned much but, but still, Traviss seems to imply that his actions weren't as horrific.)

B: Yeah, and for an "UNBIASED" book, I'd hope for more viewpoints which aren't distinctly negative.

C: Lord Hood is the person who ORDERED blue team to go to Onyx and aid Halsey. Seeing as he got a message directly from her, I'd bet he knows she is alive. The mere fact he never debriefed Blue team after seeing them on Earth again, or even went "Where is Halsey?" makes him appear stupid.

D: Okay, for Naomi, I'll admit I didn't read the ENTIRE book (I was reading it in bookstore, and skipped a portion of the middle), so I may have missed those lines or forgotten them since it's been a while.

E: Never said he knew who Ackerson was, but the fact he continued to work for ONI despite knowing they used teenagers as expendable soldiers does not mark him highly.

F: Mal, apparently in those few lines, was the only one who didn't gleefully gobble the hate spoonfed from Osman. (that wasn't spartan) Though, just curious (since it sounds like you have it there), can you confirm the reasons for her spilling the details? I recall it being about "possible questions about her and Naomi"

G: I'll let mendez/Halsey stuff rest for right now, heading away from computer so I don't have time to respond to it.

  • 08.17.2012 6:10 PM PDT


Posted by: Knightsfball11

Posted by: ajw34307
Traviss's extremely one-sided writing style


Agreed. She's trying to make Halsey into something she's not.


Also agreed. Pissed me off how arrogant Vaz was. Like he would have has the balls or the brains to understand or do what they did, which was ultimately saving humanity. /rage

My point is, while the SII program was VERY morally gray, at the end of the day the ends justified the means, the ends being preventing humanity's extinction.

  • 08.17.2012 10:29 PM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
Reach-era Master Chief appears to have the mental capacity and deductive skills of a small child; the man is in his 40s and has been in the military for his entire life, I'm sure he doesn't need every detail spoon-fed to him.


I imagine that's for the reader's benefit more than the characters. Remember: TFoR originally came out before Halo: CE was even released.

  • 08.17.2012 10:34 PM PDT


Posted by: ninjakenzen
Without trying to derail this thread, can anyone name something they actually enjoyed or found that was thought out in this novel?


I enjoyed the Servants of Abiding Truth and the look into post-Covenant Elite society. Not to mention it's the only plot point other than the (somewhat forced) Infinity references to Halo 4.

  • 08.17.2012 10:40 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Yeah I think it was Vaz who pissed me off the most. He always tries to pass himself off as the moral guy in the story and is always quick to remind us of histories monsters and of his Russian heritage, especially WWII.

Guess he forgot who was ruling Russia at that point in time.

  • 08.17.2012 11:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Yeah I think it was Vaz who pissed me off the most. He always tries to pass himself off as the moral guy in the story and is always quick to remind us of histories monsters and of his Russian heritage, especially WWII.

Guess he forgot who was ruling Russia at that point in time.


I loved the part where he was told about the spartan IIIs being suicide soldiers and he ignored it and just kept ranting on halsey.

  • 08.18.2012 6:54 AM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
A: If Vaz thought Halsey did this all by herself, and never connected the dots (Spartans work under ONI, so ONI probably had a hand in it) and STILL worked for them happily after, quoting from the book, going.
It really seemed to be presented to him as if Halsey running the whole show. Even BB says several times that "it was all her idea." BB is Parangosky's personal AI, etc. He leaves out that, while the program was Halsey's baby, it was all approved by ONI.

Vaz is an ODST, a grunt. For ONI, he's little more than a henchman.

They're all being influenced by Parangosky; everything we're discussing is a result of an ego clash between Halsey and Parangosky.I seriously question his morals, especially since I believe HE was the one described as having a high moral compass.I think it's more a result of him not having put the pieces together yet.

Mal, on the other hand, has. Like I said, he's Vaz's foil. (I'll give you Ackerson isn't mentioned much but, but still, Traviss seems to imply that his actions weren't as horrific.)Agree to disagree.B: Yeah, and for an "UNBIASED" book, I'd hope for more viewpoints which aren't distinctly negative.Oh c'mon. Vaz is really the only character that is irrationally anti-Halsey, and I really want to believe it's because he has feelings for Naomi.C: Lord Hood is the person who ORDERED blue team to go to Onyx and aid Halsey. Seeing as he got a message directly from her, I'd bet he knows she is alive. The mere fact he never debriefed Blue team after seeing them on Earth again, or even went "Where is Halsey?" makes him appear stupid.And he also knows that Onyx no longer exists. Given Parangosky's comments, I doubt anyone outside of ONI, and even then, those on a need-to-know basis, even know about the Shield World or who was inside it.

Sure, Hood undoubtedly knows that Halsey didn't die on Reach, but he more than likely thinks she died on Onyx. Also keep in mind that, to the general public, Onyx didn't exist. To make it known that Halsey died on Onyx would be sharing classified information.

So they settled on Reach for her memorial plaque.

I think it's pretty obvious that ONI holds more power than the UNSC proper, whether you think that's right or not. (I imagine there are real life parallels to this.)D: Okay, for Naomi, I'll admit I didn't read the ENTIRE book (I was reading it in bookstore, and skipped a portion of the middle), so I may have missed those lines or forgotten them since it's been a while....dude.E: Never said he knew who Ackerson was, but the fact he continued to work for ONI despite knowing they used teenagers as expendable soldiers does not mark him highly.Again, refer to how it was explained to him by BB. Vaz holds ONI and the UNSC responsible to a limited extent (comments like "And we're the good guys?"), but it really seems like he thinks Halsey was rogue.

He's new to the intelligence community, I don't think he knows just how much power and influence ONI has yet.Though, just curious (since it sounds like you have it there), can you confirm the reasons for her spilling the details? I recall it being about "possible questions about her and Naomi"I don't have the book on me at this very second, but the reason given was for the sake of...I don't know...honesty? Full disclosure for the sake of earning their trust and their full cooperation.

She says something like, "I expect everything from you, the least I can do is be honest." That being said, I think Osman's spin on the story was a result of her personal feelings and to bring them over to her side.

[Edited on 08.18.2012 8:47 AM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 8:47 AM PDT

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Posted by: grey101
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Yeah I think it was Vaz who pissed me off the most. He always tries to pass himself off as the moral guy in the story and is always quick to remind us of histories monsters and of his Russian heritage, especially WWII.

Guess he forgot who was ruling Russia at that point in time.


I loved the part where he was told about the spartan IIIs being suicide soldiers and he ignored it and just kept ranting on halsey.
This is why I'm hostile with you. I address these things in my posts, and you just ignore them completely and say things like this.

It's like you don't actually live in reality and interact with other people. When confronted with world-changing truths, people tend to forget some details and focus on the bigger picture.

In this case, that was a lot of negative stuff being piled on to Vaz. His government kidnaps children; his government kidnaps children and then sends them on suicide missions...wait; where was the point that these were two different programs ran by two different people?

Check the book, I'm pretty sure I event cited the page in my one of my previous posts: Osman leaves out that detail. All she does is say something to the extent of "twos or threes?"

Unless you can point out an earlier instance in the book where it's laid out for Kilo-Five (specifically them, not an idle conversation between Parangosky and Osman or whatever), it's entirely possible that Vaz might be under the impression that both Spartan projects were headed by Halsey.

  • 08.18.2012 8:56 AM PDT

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Posted by: TedToaster22
Infinity references to Halo 4.
I admit, they were forced.

I think I'm misunderstood on this forum. I don't defend Glasslands because it's my favorite Halo novel. In fact, it's not my favorite Halo, Contact Harvest is.

I get worked up because I think people are attacking shortcomings that aren't actually shortcomings, and that the things that are amiss are going ignored.

Case in point, the outrage over "Halsey hate." When has there ever been an introspection into the morality of the Spartan-II Program? The war is over, and there's finally time to reflect on the means that were used to ensure humanity's survival.

The characters in the book, like reality, suffer from a limited perspective of the story's events as a whole. John Q ODST might resent that some people feel the Spartans won the war. What about him? What about the regular soldiers? Someone like that, someone who may not see the significance of super soldiers, is going to have a different opinion than one (the reader) who knows that humanity would have likely lost without Spartans.

It's a completely valid topic, and it gauges differing opinions of those with shared experiences.

On the other hand, Elites were written inconsistently. Mendez was very poorly written, and I admit that my rationalizations of his behavior have been a stretch, and there are several smaller things.

  • 08.18.2012 9:28 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Yeah I think it was Vaz who pissed me off the most. He always tries to pass himself off as the moral guy in the story and is always quick to remind us of histories monsters and of his Russian heritage, especially WWII.

Guess he forgot who was ruling Russia at that point in time.


I loved the part where he was told about the spartan IIIs being suicide soldiers and he ignored it and just kept ranting on halsey.
This is why I'm hostile with you. I address these things in my posts, and you just ignore them completely and say things like this.

It's like you don't actually live in reality and interact with other people. When confronted with world-changing truths, people tend to forget some details and focus on the bigger picture.

In this case, that was a lot of negative stuff being piled on to Vaz. His government kidnaps children; his government kidnaps children and then sends them on suicide missions...wait; where was the point that these were two different programs ran by two different people?

Check the book, I'm pretty sure I event cited the page in my one of my previous posts: Osman leaves out that detail. All she does is say something to the extent of "twos or threes?"

Unless you can point out an earlier instance in the book where it's laid out for Kilo-Five (specifically them, not an idle conversation between Parangosky and Osman or whatever), it's entirely possible that Vaz might be under the impression that both Spartan projects were headed by Halsey.


I don't care if you are hostile to me It's just childish and i called you out for it. I tend not to read post that aren't addressed to me most of the time so i didn't read whatever you are referring and probably won't if it flusters you so much.


Lol,what? Details are the most important part of anything. Just because you tend not to look at details doesn't mean everybody else does the same, you generalize highly when it comes to the book which is funny since "these people aren't real and they don't matter".


What do you mean "where was the point"? If they are trying to make Halsey so damn bad they should know the reason's behind the projects and know the difference between them.


Which is a fault on Karens part and fuels the idea that this is a one sided novel that bashes halsey without addressing the wrong others have done and the details behind the events that were done. Lol, you are trying to rationalize what ackerson died because he died "a hero's death"? incredible.



I'm not so foolish to think this
will absolve me of my sins. One life
hardly balances billions.



That is from mendicant bias, a machine that regonizes nearly nothing he will do will ever make what he did any better or give it any reasoning. The same applies for Ackerson; Him leading the covenant on a little goose chase doesn't make up for the children that he sent to their deaths without any care. I love how you are seriously trying to make it seem like what halsey is getting is right despite the guilt she has and the fact she did do everything she could for her spartans.

Yet Ackerson gets a "get out of jail free" pass because he just played hid and seek with the covenant? something that surely got peopled killed in that little game? That is utterly ridiculous and filled with hypocrisy.

  • 08.18.2012 9:51 AM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: grey101
I don't care if you are hostile to me
You obviously do if you feel the need to call me on it. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by doing it either, it's not like I make it a secret: I think you're dumb. You don't know how to argue, and you don't seem to understand anything that not made blatantly obvious to you.I tend not to read post that aren't addressed to meYou don't tend to read posts that are addressed to you.Just because you tend not to look at details doesn't mean everybody else does the sameI post direct quotes from the book, page numbers, etc. You do the equivalent of plugging your ears and screaming "I'm right. I can't hear you," when provided any evidence contrary to your opinion.

All you post are general statements that only serve to highlight just how poor your reading comprehension is."these people aren't real and they don't matter".You use word like "slander," as if these are real people, and we should be standing outside Karen Traviss' house with torches and pitchforks for daring to sully the good name of dear Catherine Halsey.

Should we boycott George Lucas for killing off Vader in Episode IV?

Grow up, child.What do you mean "where was the point"? If they are trying to make Halsey so damn bad they should know the reason's behind the projects and know the difference between them.You've completely misinterpreted what I said, and it only goes to showcase your poor reading comprehension.

The ODSTs, and general service members, only know of Spartans and S-II; they're completely in the dark about the details. (Because they're classified. I shouldn't have to point this out, but..you know...it's you.) When Osman explains who Halsey/BB/Whoever describe the Spartans and who Halsey is, they not one make the distinction between S-II and S-III, and that they were projects ran by two different people. They have the same name, are designated in sequence, and it would be logical for one with no other knowledge to assume that they're one in the same. (I imagine they might also think there are Spartan-I's out there somewhere. Technically, there aren't...technically.)Which is a fault on Karens part and fuels the idea that this is a one sided novel that bashes halsey without addressing the wrong others have done and the details behind the events that were done.So you're of the mindset that, because it explored the morality of Halsey's actions, it should explore the morality of all those who acted like her? That'd be quite a lengthy book.

You do understand how storytelling works, right? You can't just interrupt the story to address every somewhat relevant plot point from the overarching fictional universe; that make it very confusing to follow and obliterate the flow of the story.Lol, you are trying to rationalize what ackerson died because he died "a hero's death"? incredible.Nice straw man, chief. I'm going to let you do the work and look up what a straw man argument is.

For the record, what he did was heroic. What Halsey accomplished did save humanity. However, those results don't make their past actions and the means they used to accomplish those ends any less inhuman.

The ends justified the means, but they were some horrifying means.
I'm not so foolish to think this
will absolve me of my sins. One life
hardly balances billions.
That is from mendicant bias, a machine that regonizes nearly nothing he will do will ever make what he did any better or give it any reasoning.Super.The same applies for Ackerson; Him leading the covenant on a little goose chase doesn't make up for the children that he sent to their deaths without any care.You're right, and it doesn't. I never said that it does.

You're aware that Ackerson, while likely sending them to their deaths, was sending them on actual military missions against priority targets, right? He wasn't just lining them up and shooting them in the head.

Sabotage and subterfuge are just as important in war as conventional combat. The missions of the S-IIIs slowed the Covenant war effort and spared millions/billions of lives.

What if the Covenant's war production was running at full capacity and the Covenant Loyalists had more ships at their disposal during The Battle of The Ark? (Might be a bad example, seeing as Shadow of Intent managed to defeat a force with triple their numbers, but you get the point...hopefully.)I love how you are seriously trying to make it seem like what halsey is getting is right despite the guilt she has and the fact she did do everything she could for her spartans.What is she getting? She gets to live on in indentured servitude to ONI conducting more scientific research. It's not ideal, but I like to think it's better than a firing squad, especially considering the crimes she committed at the end of First Strike/beginning of Ghosts of Onyx.

And if the things she did to complete the Spartan-II Project come to light? Why is that such a horrible thing? They did happen. She's an adult, she has to own up to her actions, and if the UEG or the public don't like it, so be it.

Then again, it's not like she'll receive punishment for it; she's legally dead.[quote]Ackerson gets a "get out of jail free" pass because he just played hid and seek with the covenant? something that surely got peopled killed in that little game? That is utterly ridiculous and filled with hypocrisy.
Ackerson was tortured for information and then beheaded. His actions near his death led the Covenant on a chase while they could've been doing what they originally intended to do: murder civilians.

Is that brutal enough for you?

  • 08.18.2012 10:41 AM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
C: Lord Hood is the person who ORDERED blue team to go to Onyx and aid Halsey. Seeing as he got a message directly from her, I'd bet he knows she is alive. The mere fact he never debriefed Blue team after seeing them on Earth again, or even went "Where is Halsey?" makes him appear stupid.And he also knows that Onyx no longer exists. Given Parangosky's comments, I doubt anyone outside of ONI, and even then, those on a need-to-know basis, even know about the Shield World or who was inside it.

Sure, Hood undoubtedly knows that Halsey didn't die on Reach, but he more than likely thinks she died on Onyx. Also keep in mind that, to the general public, Onyx didn't exist. To make it known that Halsey died on Onyx would be sharing classified information.

So they settled on Reach for her memorial plaque.

I think it's pretty obvious that ONI holds more power than the UNSC proper, whether you think that's right or not. (I imagine there are real life parallels to this.)


In halo canon, Hood is supposed to hold more power. Glasslands is the first and only time ONI is implied to be it's own government.

And again, he might "think" that Halsey died on Onyx, but that doesn't stop him from debriefing blue team or asking for DETAILS about it.

Seriously, it's a "I sent blue team to help halsey on Onyx. They are back now, and Halsey isn't with them. Instead of debriefing them or asking what happened in a secluded area, I'll just assume Halsey died and never do the proper military course of action."

Overall, I could probably accept the book. It's just specific scenes that bug me. That is one of them. When Chief returned from that planet he first fought the hunters, what happened? He got debriefed. When Fred reached Earth from reach, what happened? He was debriefed. Hell, look at say, Mass Effect (any of them) After you do a major mission, you talk to your superior officer style person, in a more casual form of a debrief (as well as submitting a report. ME3 does this for all the missions though.)

IIRC, the only time in the book military behaviors were followed, was when the ODST stood between the Spartans and Halsey, and went "Can't let you in, the Captain ordered me." and the Spartans back down.

Edit: In addition to specific scenes, the general lack of research that is very clear. You know, like there being no engineers on Earth bar one which was there for "years", despite well, Vergil, the boatload from the AJ...

[Edited on 08.18.2012 12:01 PM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 11:59 AM PDT

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If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

In all fairness, we haven't been told what's happened to Blue Team on Earth yet. I can see Hood delaying the debriefing for the Spartans to attend the memorial dedication at Voi. I mean, with the Master Chief being declared dead, it's the kind of thing I could see them make an exception for. (Think of how Naomi reacted to the news of his assumed death, hell even Parangosky. The dude was a species-wide hero; imagine how his old squad mates would take that.)

It's the kind of debriefing Hood would need to be at, and rescheduling something so important would garner too much attention.

That's what I make of it.

  • 08.18.2012 2:06 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I don't want to read every single post in this massive thread, so I'll just chip in my .02 cents.

Glasslands did not change my view of Halsey. Primo makes sense by saying the characters reactions are appropriate in universe towards her, but would it have hurt to have shone a sympathetic light on Halsey? The only characters who would have anything positive to say about her (Blue Team) are demoted to minor supporting roles who barely have any impact on the story at all. All the major characters are strongly anti-Halsey, even Halsey herself is suffering doubts about herself. Previous books have been more pro-Halsey but why the shocking swerve? Had Blue Team have an actual impact on the story rather than being a bunch of automatons who do nothing but provide some background scenery, maybe the portrayal of Halsey would have left a better taste.

I still view Halsey in a positive light. She did do ethically questionable things, but she tried to make the process better. She tried to give the families closure, and she tried to make the augments as safe as possible by testing them extensively on chimps. Say what you will about kidnapping children, it was for a greater cause. Had the Spartans not been formed UNSC would have fallen to the Innies. The use of them against the Covies was an unexpected oppurtunity. Needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few and all that stuff.

  • 08.18.2012 3:19 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

I'm currently reading Glasslands and am not even 100 pages in, but so far, I'm not really liking Halsey. She's obsessed with her redemption and cleaning her name. She believes she deserves authority and respect from the both Spartan's just because she invented the first class. Although Parangosky's obsession with her, is not much better.

Mendez was right to reprimand her. She's not in her environment and she can't be the leader here.

  • 08.19.2012 2:04 AM PDT


Posted by: HipiO7
I'm currently reading Glasslands and am not even 100 pages in, but so far, I'm not really liking Halsey. She's obsessed with her redemption and cleaning her name. She believes she deserves authority and respect from the both Spartan's just because she invented the first class. Although Parangosky's obsession with her, is not much better.

Mendez was right to reprimand her. She's not in her environment and she can't be the leader here.


What about Mendez considering letting her starve?

  • 08.19.2012 4:04 AM PDT

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17th Mythic Conqueror of Halo 3.
5th Mythic Conqueror of ODST.
If you would like to know more about Mythic difficulty please go to this thread. Thank you.

Please do not send me "recruitment messages" as I'm not interested in joining any groups currently.

I think pretty much the same of her; she has her reasons for doing what she did (incidentally, I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Committee for Minds of Security yet and referenced that they've been seeding humanity with ideas for a long time - one of which was the ORION project in response to the Carver findings; essentially the ORION and SPARTAN programmes weren't entirely ONI or Halsey's ideas in the first place. The Committee was also responsible for instigating early conflicts which spurred on the necessity and technological innovation necessary for a supersoldier project.) and also has her flaws.

She attempted to reconcile herself with her actions, however other characters don't see it the same way which is to be expected. As for the Parangosky thing; by arresting Halsey and shipping her off to work on Infinity or any other number of pet projects Parangosky gets control of Halsey again. She's not stupid and everything she does is to her own practical ends.

Ultimately I don't feel like Glasslands made Halsey appear to be out of character at all considering she had no real or consistent work to keep her thoughts occupied and that most of the perspective of her was from other characters not as devoted to her as the SPARTAN-IIs. Mendez's vilification of her is, if anything, an attempt for him to justify his own actions by tarring someone else with a similar brush and attempting to get them to share the burden of guilt.

[Edited on 08.19.2012 7:55 AM PDT]

  • 08.19.2012 7:52 AM PDT