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This topic has moved here: Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
  • Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

15. Who is to make that comparison? So Ackersons actions that might have save a city or to are to be praised but Halsey finding a treasure trove of forerunner technologies that would propel our entire race shouldn't?

16.You really need to take your own advice since you have been doing that this entire time.

17.Lacking opinions of characters that support halsey and try to stand up for her as much as those that are trying to put her down.

19. Didn't i just post the stuff that ackerson did that makes him worse than halsey? It isn't like that stuff isn't in GoO if you aren't going to acknowledge what i posted as "factual content" since as it wasn't fictional.

20.A single CCS being destroyed isn't much a a victory and that still has no weight over halsey's findings.

21. You probably didn't but i thought you were trying to imply that it was but i get confused. Seeing as everytime it seems like something was implied you say it wasn't and when it doesn't seem like there was something to be implied you say there was.

I still don't see a that as equal in Samsara's eyes because a little torture and a quick beheading doesn't seem equal as being burned alive. Or being cut limb from limb by an elite and the countless other deaths those children faced.

  • 08.21.2012 10:36 AM PDT
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Primo, based on your silly arguments, it sounded like you were attacking Grey101 which it warrants for flaming.

Flaming is part of "being jerk" which it is strictly prohibited by the rules.

Source

[Edited on 08.21.2012 11:04 AM PDT]

  • 08.21.2012 11:01 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
I'm not sure what politeness has to do with intelligence, but okay


I think he means that the smarter someone is the less likely they are to resort to insults and name calling to make a point.
It lacks finesse. And makes the occasional time where you do use more vulgar language have less impact.

In general you don't need to insult someone if you are smarter than them, just prove them wrong.

You're using real-world legal terms to describe the interpretation of a person that doesn't exist, as if the interpreter of said person, the author, has actually committed some sort of legitimate offense.

The word 'slander' is perfectly appropriate in context, and it does not require a legal use.

And I've suggested that you look up what the word "perspective" means. There is no single shared perspective in this book, as everyone has reached their conclusions for their own individual reasons, which I've explained, which you've ignored.

The problem is, as with many Karen Travis books, that they have all arrived at the same conclusion. Namely hers, just dressed up a little differently each time.

She did this in the SW books she wrote as well, and she does not often present an opposing viewpoint.
That kind of thing is fine in fanfiction but not a published work.

Why? Why was Ackerson worse than Halsey?

Disposable suicide children.

That about covers it.


At least the Spartan II's were expected and trained to survive their missions.

  • 08.21.2012 11:15 AM PDT

And yeah, the charges against Halsey would never hold.

You can't say she lied about needing the Spartans to secure tech, because she was found with a forerunner tech stash.

If the admiral's didn't know about the details of the S2 program. then bringing up that or the clones would backfire on Parangosky/ONI heavily. If they did, they won't care about those charges and toss them out anyway...

Edit: As said, Multiple perspectives don't change anything when they all (or 99%) end up saying the same thing.

Sure, Vaz hates Halsey for different reasons then Osman, Mendez, or Parangosky. But those four characters ALL hate Halsey. Instead of previous books that showed, Halsey wasn't loved by the rest of ONI, but she cared enough to give the Spartans the best damn chance they could for survival, within ONI's limits. Basically, for MANY people, Glasslands took a grey area (pick how you think of her) and painted it pure black (she's EVIL, AND YOU ARE BAD FOR LIKING HER).

Also, about Ackerson's chase... didn't that entire city get ruined or heavily damaged? I'd wager causing a city to be destroyed isn't very heroic, especially when the reward is merely a minor prophet's death.

Edit2: The S3's were trained as best as they could be... but Ackerson and Parangosky gave them (comparably) -blam!- armor and missions that had no chance for survival toward the end of each company.

Literally went "Too tough for ODST's, too risky to send S2's. Send a mob of S3's."

[Edited on 08.21.2012 12:04 PM PDT]

  • 08.21.2012 11:49 AM PDT
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The Spartan Program Was the reason humanity didn't get obliterated, the Spartan Program was a cold and harsh program, however she Did get clones for the children and that was one reason why Vaz, Mal and the others hated her. She was selfish to kidnap Kelly and trick Lord hood to get the other Spartans on Onyx, but she did help humanity in so many ways, it balances out, nobody likes her cause they only got one side of the story, but did not look into the results from the Program, which were, Humanity is still alive and the Halo Rings were stopped and they had found Forunner technology to make the UNSC Infinity, a large part of all that goes to the Spartans.

  • 08.21.2012 4:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Ashtarh1
The Spartan Program Was the reason humanity didn't get obliterated, the Spartan Program was a cold and harsh program, however she Did get clones for the children and that was one reason why Vaz, Mal and the others hated her. She was selfish to kidnap Kelly and trick Lord hood to get the other Spartans on Onyx, but she did help humanity in so many ways, it balances out, nobody likes her cause they only got one side of the story, but did not look into the results from the Program, which were, Humanity is still alive and the Halo Rings were stopped and they had found Forunner technology to make the UNSC Infinity, a large part of all that goes to the Spartans.


Did you read the thread at all before posting?

It was never implied that she somehow did the clones behind the programs back seeing as everything she did had to be approved not to mention somebody was always watching her.

She did kidnap kelly but she didn't trick lord hood with the technological assets since there were technological assets.

That is more or less what i an others have been trying to say about the one viewpoint of halsey being negative.

  • 08.21.2012 4:34 PM PDT


Posted by: Sir Fragula
I still need to read this. Every time I've checked on Kindle it hasn't been available in England. :(


Yep same for Australia, can't even find the book on the shelves.

I ended up buying an audio books on Amazon's audible site, although I have to say for any competent reader an audio book bites the big one!

I can't get past the first chapter...

  • 08.21.2012 4:49 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
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Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Personally I thought the entirety of Glasslands was completely out of touch with the Halo universe and the characters within. Halsey is suddenly a monster, Mendez suddenly grows a conscience despite participating in TWO spartan projects and Parangonsky suddenly decides that deception and secrets are the worst thing in the world despite behind the head of ONI who deal primarily in deception and secrets.

So much damage done to the Halo universe is such a small amount of time. That's the achievement of Glasslands.

  • 08.21.2012 8:53 PM PDT


Posted by: flamedude
Personally I thought the entirety of Glasslands was completely out of touch with the Halo universe and the characters within. Halsey is suddenly a monster, Mendez suddenly grows a conscience despite participating in TWO spartan projects and Parangonsky suddenly decides that deception and secrets are the worst thing in the world despite behind the head of ONI who deal primarily in deception and secrets.

So much damage done to the Halo universe is such a small amount of time. That's the achievement of Glasslands.


From what I've seen posted by readers I'm not looking forward to the book. Actually when I admit it I mostly just want some closure on Eric Nylund's story branches, mostly getting back from Onyx etc. Sure maybe a little about the lead up to Halo 4 but I've little interest in Travvis and the lack of Halo understanding.

  • 08.21.2012 9:12 PM PDT
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Just about every thing I post is my opinion and nothing more. Be subjective. Respect other's opinions. Try to understand other's point of view.

Halsey is by far the best character in the Halo Universe. I did not like the direction Traviss took with her character. It was annoying and made her look like a paranoid,single-minded idiot scientist.

I look forward to reading more about her from other authors.

  • 08.21.2012 9:43 PM PDT

Also another thing I didn't like about Glasslands was how it seems ONI already had and knew how to work forerunner teach.



-Nate'

  • 08.22.2012 8:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Chester Duncan
Also another thing I didn't like about Glasslands was how it seems ONI already had and knew how to work forerunner teach.



-Nate'


EXACTLY! in Halo evolutions they say the don't understand the portal and are going to be researching it for awhile yet according to glasslands they somehow got a a forerunner drive and applied it to our ships before halo 3 even ended.

whaaa?

  • 08.22.2012 9:45 AM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

For the love of god, learn to quote tree.
1.I don't ignore your facts but for some reason somebody (me specifically) not sharing your viewpoint seems to annoy you so much.You ignore anything cited, evidenced by the fact that you've yet to try and counter anything I've said that's cited.2.Which i stated is ridiculous and immature but irrelevant nonetheless and shouldn't be brought up in a discussion but rather a PM.It's the result of arguing with a brick wall.3. I was sarcastically saying if intelligence is measure by insults then you beat me. You speak of me ignoring your post but you don't even read mine.I read your posts in their entirety, it's just that their often incoherent. 4.Um, everything i am saying is coming straight from the lore and you being upset that I don't share the same viewpoint as you isn't an argument. You know very well i can argue when i have something to argue about which isn't this topic.Then cite it. If you knew how to argue, you'd know that this is critical.

Very little of what you say is from the source material, it's just opinion. I reply with my own opinion, but I cite the source material as a means of showing how I came to said opinion.

That's how this works.5. I know exactly what you were talking about and brought it into a real world context.Which is silly, because you sound angry about it.Stop bring up "reading comprehension" since you have a bigger issue understanding me than i do you.I understand you fine.Especially since other members have stated you are the one with reading comprehension issues.I don't think they have.

Cite it. You know what that means, right?6.Lol what? we can easily ask for outside opinions on that since you are being far more rude than i have been not to mention your attacks on me were uncalled for from the start. I will go ahead and ask people to read this thread and then post who they think was being a jerk.I hope you mean on B.net, because I'd be a little embarrassed to show this off in person in I were you. ("Mom, some guy is being rude to me on the internet.")

I've explained why I'm being rude.7. yet you are the one so worked up that i don't share your point of view? That is confusing not to mention you are the one calling me names over "a book".I'm worked up over the way you debate; I've said that several times already, but you'll ignore this part. 8.There isn't a wound and i have been addressing your point just because they aren't answers you want to here doesn't mean they aren't answers.They're poor answers; poor, unsubstantiated answers.9. This isn't a debate or argument and i post in a matter that doesn't take up a lot of time since for me.It is, and your not wanting to put the effort forth is your problem, not mine.10.It's an internet forum what in the world would a "motive" be?I thought you were trolling by continuing to post in the way you do, but recent threads in The Flood have led me to believe that's just the way you are.

I'll take you less seriously now.I have acknowledge your pointsCite the post then.didn't ignore anton'sI replied to Anton; and I said he was right about the Elites. I even did it in a post directed toward you.

And you say I don't read replies, right?So stop acting i ignore you when i post back each and every time.Above^11. Yet nobody reach the conclusion that halsey might not have been the figure head of the project and or that their might have been a reason the project was started in the first place.They understand that completely, and they don't think it's justified. Well, Vaz doesn't. Mal doesn't like the idea of child soldiers, but he rationalizes it. I posted the actual quote and page number earlier.

Can you just acknowledge that they understood the circumstances? Vaz and Mal had an argument over it.If you know i will never acknowledge your points and will constantly ignore them then why are you wasting your time trying to explain them?Because you keep insisting that you are acknowledging them. Are you finally admitting that you only choose to acknowledge things that you feel able to counter. (Despite that you're often not.)12. A single line wouldn't slow down the pace of the book whatsoever. Not to mention no book in the haloverse should be a stand alone novel to this degree as this might be somebodies first book and they wouldn't know any details about what is going on because they were never brought up or implied in the book.You just contradicted yourself. A standalone book would be more accessible to a new reader; it would need to add context and backstory in the way you've suggested.

This book, as part of a series whose readers have likely read each addition, doesn't.

This is subjective though, so alright then. 13.
I had never seen anything like thisbut the Didact had.

His memories offered commentary and context as the grappler dragged me down
toward that hell.
An extremely brief passage such as that would not slow do the book whatsoever primo.
A quote about being given context yet doesn't provide the actual context? The only thing the quote tells me is that the narrator is being given context through shared memories.

Ironically, you failed to give context to the quote; what novel is this even from?14. Ok so when I assume you are trying to imply something you state that you weren't and that isn't what you mean.Now you say you try to imply things but it just goes over my head? what?Again, context please. You really should learn to quote tree.

If this is in regard to our little Ackerson discussion, you assumed wrong. You initially thought I was implying that Ackerson's involvement with S-III was heroic, right? Not at all. I did compare it's necessity and results to Halsey's, but I never put either on a pedestal for those actions.

His death was heroic, he was still an -blam!-. Two different events, you follow?

Please do not ignore this part, as you're only proving me correct if you do.

[Edited on 08.22.2012 10:45 AM PDT]

  • 08.22.2012 10:38 AM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: Fin5434p
You're using real-world legal terms to describe the interpretation of a person that doesn't exist, as if the interpreter of said person, the author, has actually committed some sort of legitimate offense.The word 'slander' is perfectly appropriate in context, and it does not require a legal use.
It implies a seriousness that simply isn't there, seeing as we're talking about fictional characters.And I've suggested that you look up what the word "perspective" means. There is no single shared perspective in this book, as everyone has reached their conclusions for their own individual reasons, which I've explained, which you've ignored.The problem is, as with many Karen Travis books, that they have all arrived at the same conclusion. Namely hers, just dressed up a little differently each time.

She did this in the SW books she wrote as well, and she does not often present an opposing viewpoint.

That kind of thing is fine in fanfiction but not a published work.
And I think the shared conclusion makes sense, although I think you detractors aren't giving Mal's conclusion enough attention, so I don't think it's as unanimous as you're making it out to be.

Given the perspective of each character, their conclusions make sense. Why? Why was Ackerson worse than Halsey?Disposable suicide children.

That about covers it.
And I agree. The point I'm trying to make is that, while worse than Halsey's actions, they don't make hers any better.

If you lay a skeleton next to a recently dead body and compare them, in the end, they're both still dead.

  • 08.22.2012 10:54 AM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: grey101
15. Who is to make that comparison? So Ackersons actions that might have save a city or to are to be praised but Halsey finding a treasure trove of forerunner technologies that would propel our entire race shouldn't?

16.You really need to take your own advice since you have been doing that this entire time.

17.Lacking opinions of characters that support halsey and try to stand up for her as much as those that are trying to put her down.

19. Didn't i just post the stuff that ackerson did that makes him worse than halsey? It isn't like that stuff isn't in GoO if you aren't going to acknowledge what i posted as "factual content" since as it wasn't fictional.

20.A single CCS being destroyed isn't much a a victory and that still has no weight over halsey's findings.

21. You probably didn't but i thought you were trying to imply that it was but i get confused. Seeing as everytime it seems like something was implied you say it wasn't and when it doesn't seem like there was something to be implied you say there was.

I still don't see a that as equal in Samsara's eyes because a little torture and a quick beheading doesn't seem equal as being burned alive. Or being cut limb from limb by an elite and the countless other deaths those children faced.
I'll reply to this later. I wouldn't want you to think I'm ignoring you.

I miss Snakie.

[Edited on 08.22.2012 11:13 AM PDT]

  • 08.22.2012 10:56 AM PDT
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  • 08.22.2012 11:23 AM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: notnooborelite
Wow. Ruined any threads lately?
C'mon, man, it's the Universe Forum.

This is the only activity is gets, and it's not like this discussion hasn't taken place before.

  • 08.22.2012 12:08 PM PDT
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I find it to be funny that anyone ignored my post pointing out why Glasslands was horrid.

  • 08.22.2012 12:25 PM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: raganok99
I find it to be funny that anyone ignored my post pointing out why Glasslands was horrid.
You didn't say anything that hasn't already been mentioned a dozen times.

  • 08.22.2012 12:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: raganok99
I find it to be funny that anyone ignored my post pointing out why Glasslands was horrid.
You didn't say anything that hasn't already been mentioned a dozen times.




Rubbish. Utter rubbish crap spouted by Traviss.

I'll let you know that she actually admitted that she didn't do any research on Halo universe, only used "hard facts" to assert her writing of Glasslands. That is one of many reasons why Glasslands received low rating and is regarded as worst Halo novel to be dated in Halo franchise.

Unbiased view? Ha, don't make me laugh. Rebuilting characters from Fall of Reach, First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx and using that rebuilt character as form to attack Dr. Halsey in somewhat way of implementing her opinion (I dare to say, highly moralistic sense) and even made Dr. Halsey from cold and calculating woman to drama queen with personal problems.

That, is truly pathetic. Perhaps 343i studios should have paid little more attention at her horrendous writing and gave her such harsh criticism and corrections to make sure that Halo canon isn't raped over again.

I apologize for a small rant, I just find Traviss's writing of Halo novel was huge mistake made by 343i Studios. They should have kept Eric Nylund for marvelous novels e.g Fall of Reach, First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx.


Enough for you now?

  • 08.22.2012 1:09 PM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

That's what I was referring to.

Sure, you worded it better than others, but it's nothing new.

  • 08.22.2012 1:15 PM PDT

Heh... maybe you two need to redirect back toward Halsey, and not each other.

  • 08.22.2012 1:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
It implies a seriousness that simply isn't there, seeing as we're talking about fictional characters.


Oh come on dude, it's talking about a character in a book, of course it isn't a legal context. Nitpicking like that is just silly.

And I think the shared conclusion makes sense, although I think you detractors aren't giving Mal's conclusion enough attention, so I don't think it's as unanimous as you're making it out to be.

Given the perspective of each character, their conclusions make sense.


They may be internally consistant, but so were the ones in Star Wars that presented the Jedi as child stealing evil autocrats. Just because it follows an internally consistant argument doesn't make it a good or even necessarily correct argument.

I would be more inclined to give Traviss the benifit of the doubt if she genuinely used these things for character development but she doesn't.

My main issue is when she uses her books to advance her own political or personal views, and her perchant for rants. Particularly *misaimed* rants, like demonising Halsey and comparing her to mengele.
Her rants in SW were all from 'Mando' characters and directed primarily at the jedi. This would be fine if it was part of a bigger plot point, or character development, but it isn't: every other character just nods and goes along with the 'obvious wisdom' of her mouthpiece character.

My main problem with her writing is it's very opinionated, and she writes in a way that presumes the reader agrees with her, opposing views are not presented and no one really questions the viewpoint she puts forward, even if it would be in character to do so. The S IIs that were on onyx would have defended Halsey come hell or high water,we know this from previous work, they are all aware of the details of the Spartan programme. Do they? Nah.

And I agree. The point I'm trying to make is that, while worse than Halsey's actions, they don't make hers any better.

If you lay a skeleton next to a recently dead body and compare them, in the end, they're both still dead.


Training children as soldiers to fight, and training a child as a suicide bomber are very different. Yes both are morally 'Wrong' but there are levels within that too.
At least the SIIs were valued.

  • 08.22.2012 4:46 PM PDT


Posted by: Fin5434p

My main issue is when she uses her books to advance her own political or personal views, and her perchant for rants. Particularly *misaimed* rants, like demonising Halsey and comparing her to mengele.
Her rants in SW were all from 'Mando' characters and directed primarily at the jedi. This would be fine if it was part of a bigger plot point, or character development, but it isn't: every other character just nods and goes along with the 'obvious wisdom' of her mouthpiece character.

My main problem with her writing is it's very opinionated, and she writes in a way that presumes the reader agrees with her, opposing views are not presented and no one really questions the viewpoint she puts forward, even if it would be in character to do so. The S IIs that were on onyx would have defended Halsey come hell or high water,we know this from previous work, they are all aware of the details of the Spartan programme. Do they? Nah.


Kinda curious about what she said concerning Jedi now. :P

And bolded point is pretty much what I've been saying.

We aren't given much of a viewpoint about Halsey's good side. We aren't given ANY viewpoint or knowledge about the elites who want peace because they respect humanity.

  • 08.22.2012 5:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Fin5434p

My main issue is when she uses her books to advance her own political or personal views, and her perchant for rants. Particularly *misaimed* rants, like demonising Halsey and comparing her to mengele.
Her rants in SW were all from 'Mando' characters and directed primarily at the jedi. This would be fine if it was part of a bigger plot point, or character development, but it isn't: every other character just nods and goes along with the 'obvious wisdom' of her mouthpiece character.

My main problem with her writing is it's very opinionated, and she writes in a way that presumes the reader agrees with her, opposing views are not presented and no one really questions the viewpoint she puts forward, even if it would be in character to do so. The S IIs that were on onyx would have defended Halsey come hell or high water,we know this from previous work, they are all aware of the details of the Spartan programme. Do they? Nah.


Kinda curious about what she said concerning Jedi now. :P

And bolded point is pretty much what I've been saying.

We aren't given much of a viewpoint about Halsey's good side. We aren't given ANY viewpoint or knowledge about the elites who want peace because they respect humanity.



From the limited knowledge i have she gave a ridiculously low number for the amount of stormtroopers defending a planet. That is the extent of my star wars knowledge with her though obviously Fin could elaborate far more on that than i can.



Which is my issue in that department, If some people said halsey was good and others said she was bad then it would balance out. The book doesn't offer that nor does it give the uneducated reader a chance to pick their side of the moral fence through the details that should have been explained in the novel. Such as the founding and history of the spartan project as well as pointing out the differences between the SII and SIII program.
It would have been a far better read in that case and would have sparked better discussions on why people have their views on halsey.



The Same for the elites we only see one side of the fence and that makes us think it is the only side of the fence. With bungie it seemed to be going in the direction that the elites would be able to tolerate us if not start a new covenant with us. That idea is completely absent in Glasslands as it seems the elites either A) want to wipe us out quickly or B) want to go separate ways until the can wipe us out. Then there are statements like this;

What was he doing worrying about
the humans? They were no more than an infestation, backward vermin, and could be
eradicated.


"We might have different priorities, Jul, but I do agree with you. There's no lasting peace to
be made with humans. We've killed too many of them. This is just a lull in the war. It might be
weeks or years or even centuries, but it'll never be truly over."


"They'll be back," he said, running a polishing cloth over his armor for the tenth time that
morning. "They're like the Flood. They expand to fill every available space. They devour
everything in their path. Except they can plan and wait, and persuade our more gullible
brothers with clever argument, which makes them even more dangerous."



"Am I the only one who can see
that the humans are just catching their breath? They won't forget, and they won't forgive.
They certainly won't stop their colonization."



I feel like the last to quotes blatantly show karen's disregard for the halo lore not to mention how childish the elites now are. The Elites have been spacefaring for more than 3,000 years meaning they should have thousands of planets seeing as the UNSC had 800 planets and or systems under their belt on a lower technological tier.
So for the Elites to compare the to the flood (which made my jaw drop the first round) was just ridiculous even more so since it is the covenant that suck up all the resources of a planet and leave it barren, like the flood. -_-

You then have the comments about humans never forgiving/forgetting and that it is better off to just go ahead and wipe them out. Which isn't consistent with the elites being an "honorable race" seeing as they should be sucking up to humanity for wrongly butchering billions for no reason. Instead Glasslands has the elites blaming the humans for the current crisis they are in more so than the san shyumm with the idea of "if the humans weren't so widespread we would have defeated them sooner and wouldn't be in this mess".

Sadly halo doesn't seem to be the universe that will make an idea stick with all members of a race. So in a sense it isn't wrong that we have this viewpoint of elites since it does show that not all elites hold the standard we are used to. But at the same time it would have been nice to acknowledge the elites that want an actual truce and relationship with the humans instead of this "there is a war but nobody is firing" nonsense.

[Edited on 08.22.2012 6:15 PM PDT]

  • 08.22.2012 6:12 PM PDT