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This topic has moved here: Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
  • Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?
Subject: So after finishing Glasslands, what do you think of Halsey?

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

The expansionism was a funny one. Supposedly space in the Milky Way galaxy is in short supply between the Sangheili and Humans and that Human "expansionism" (Whatever that actually means; we have seen absolutely nothing so far that defines what that is in comparison to other races' supposedly "acceptable" expansions. It's utterly meaningless drivel that we are just expected to accept all of a sudden.) is a serious issue for the Sangheili. It is also made out that all of a sudden, the two empires that had never even known of each others existence until 27 years ago are now suddenly rubbing uncomfortably against each other. (The Sangheili have been space faring for almost 4000 years and never once did Humanity detect their radio emissions or anything. They can't be that close surely.)

All in all, just another shoddy excuse to get the outdated conflict ball rolling again.

  • 08.22.2012 8:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
The expansionism was a funny one. Supposedly space in the Milky Way galaxy is in short supply between the Sangheili and Humans and that Human "expansionism" (Whatever that actually means; we have seen absolutely nothing so far that defines what that is in comparison to other races' supposedly "acceptable" expansions. It's utterly meaningless drivel that we are just expected to accept all of a sudden.) is a serious issue for the Sangheili. It is also made out that all of a sudden, the two empires that had never even known of each others existence until 27 years ago are now suddenly rubbing uncomfortably against each other. (The Sangheili have been space faring for almost 4000 years and never once did Humanity detect their radio emissions or anything. They can't be that close surely.)

All in all, just another shoddy excuse to get the outdated conflict ball rolling again.

I agree, it makes no sense.

  • 08.22.2012 9:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: anton1792
The expansionism was a funny one. Supposedly space in the Milky Way galaxy is in short supply between the Sangheili and Humans and that Human "expansionism" (Whatever that actually means; we have seen absolutely nothing so far that defines what that is in comparison to other races' supposedly "acceptable" expansions. It's utterly meaningless drivel that we are just expected to accept all of a sudden.) is a serious issue for the Sangheili. It is also made out that all of a sudden, the two empires that had never even known of each others existence until 27 years ago are now suddenly rubbing uncomfortably against each other. (The Sangheili have been space faring for almost 4000 years and never once did Humanity detect their radio emissions or anything. They can't be that close surely.)

All in all, just another shoddy excuse to get the outdated conflict ball rolling again.


EXACTLY! They are seriously trying to say "if the humans weren't so far spread we would have beaten them sooner and not be in this mess". Hell, i think it was jul that even stated that we wouldn't be hard to wipe out but the san shyuum would. Whaa? They don't have the keyship nor do they have any type of population. So i am seriously trying to understand what was going on in karen's mind when she wrote such statement.

  • 08.23.2012 3:04 AM PDT

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Posted by: anton1792
"expansionism"
I have a feeling that it was just a sloppy nod to Cryptum and ancient humanity.

  • 08.23.2012 3:50 AM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

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I felt the outrage, while not necessarily misplaced, was put on a completely ridiculous and unwarranted scale which the previous novels simply don't imply. It is laughable that Parangosky found the cloning aspect of the project to be the most unacceptable, when in reality it is the most humane way to go about an intrinsically inhumane situation.

Traviss suffered from ignorance of the franchise she was writing for. She may have gotten the core details, but she didn't know the characters and their motivations, and that was a big problem when it came to writing about them.

  • 08.23.2012 9:01 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: anton1792
"expansionism"
I have a feeling that it was just a sloppy nod to Cryptum and ancient humanity.

Quite possibly. I hated it in the Forerunner trilogy as well; pretty much the only gripe I had with Bear's work. I think that it is a really silly theme. Ancient Humanity being these xenophobes, "purists" and genocidal seems more than a little extreme. And then Glasslands comes out and tells me that it isn't an arc, it's just there, as if it is some integrated part of the fiction now. Now we have to put up with the Forerunner/Sangheili equivalent of this. With the Forerunners it sort of fit because they were already established as this great transcended race (I still don't get the roots of this "Humans are Bastards" trope though) but with the Sangheili it seems as if they have been altered to fit that role; stuff has just been made up and thrown in so that someone on the writers board can fill the fiction with as much aimless cynicism as possible. I wouldn't mind it if other races were no better, but it is just turning out to be one of those tropes I guess where aliens cease to be believably and relatable characters in their own right, and just become Mary Sutopias and authorial mouthpieces, complete with the full set of handwavy reasons as to why they don't have the same issues Humanity has.

I just don't think it fits Halo's tone; Halo has always been slightly optimistic despite being in a borderline Grimdark setting. I think that's why I can't seem to enjoy much of the newer fiction since Cryptum; the tone is almost completely different, in some cases diametrically opposed, such as the case of the Sangheili in Glasslands.

  • 08.23.2012 9:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: anton1792
"expansionism"
I have a feeling that it was just a sloppy nod to Cryptum and ancient humanity.

Quite possibly. I hated it in the Forerunner trilogy as well; pretty much the only gripe I had with Bear's work. I think that it is a really silly theme. Ancient Humanity being these xenophobes, "purists" and genocidal seems more than a little extreme. And then Glasslands comes out and tells me that it isn't an arc, it's just there, as if it is some integrated part of the fiction now. Now we have to put up with the Forerunner/Sangheili equivalent of this. With the Forerunners it sort of fit because they were already established as this great transcended race (I still don't get the roots of this "Humans are Bastards" trope though) but with the Sangheili it seems as if they have been altered to fit that role; stuff has just been made up and thrown in so that someone on the writers board can fill the fiction with as much aimless cynicism as possible. I wouldn't mind it if other races were no better, but it is just turning out to be one of those tropes I guess where aliens cease to be believably and relatable characters in their own right, and just become Mary Sutopias and authorial mouthpieces, complete with the full set of handwavy reasons as to why they don't have the same issues Humanity has.

I just don't think it fits Halo's tone; Halo has always been slightly optimistic despite being in a borderline Grimdark setting. I think that's why I can't seem to enjoy much of the newer fiction since Cryptum; the tone is almost completely different, in some cases diametrically opposed, such as the case of the Sangheili in Glasslands.



I don't believe that because From the point of view those statements were given in, the forerunners. Of course they are going to see any expansion other than their own as "excessive" Even bornstellar picked up and pointed out the hypocrisy.



"Humans are naturally purists. They resent having to live
with other species. In fact, they're among the most contentious, bigoted, selfcentered"
He looked back at Riser and Chakas. "I never understood how my
wife tolerated them."

"Forerunners don't like living with other species, either," I observed.

"Yes, but for good reason," the Didact said. "We enforce the Mantle. We must
focus and protect and preserve all lifeincluding ourselves."



So it wasn't right for the humans to expand yet it was fine for the forerunners to add more worlds to the millions they already own because they follow the mantle. You can easily see the hypocrisy and justification for such in that passage.

Then there is this.


For these dreams spoke of leave-taking and farewell, of the last
night before a grand battle that would spread across a hundred
thousand light-years to determine the fate of a thousand suns and
twenty thousand worlds.




This knowledge, however acquired, is what forced
the Forerunners to preserve remnants of those they defeated, rather
than wipe us from the slate of history, as they had so many others
before."



Seeing as there are millions upon millions of planets in this galaxy i see no issue with the humans controlling 20,000 worlds compared to the forerunners 3 million. Not to mention humanity has been the only race stated to escape forerunner dominance to such a degree. If the humans were so violent with other species i wouldn't expect the amount of concern Yprin Showed at the though of the forerunners erasing them.



My privilegeto be born and raised all unaware of what Forerunners had had to
do to protect their position in the galaxy: moving opposing civilizations and species
aside, taking over their worlds and their resources, undermining their growth and
developmentreducing them to a population of specimens. Making sure their
opponents could never rise again, never present a threat to Forerunner
dominance, all while claiming the privilege of protecting the Mantle.

Mopping up after the slaughter.

How many species had collapsed beneath our hypocrisy, stretching how far back
in time? What was myth, what was nightmare, what was truth? My life, my luxury
rising from the crushed backs of the vanquished, who were destroyed or
deevolved


Case point.

  • 08.24.2012 5:59 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: grey101
I don't believe that because from the point of view those statements were given in, the Forerunners, of course they are going to see any expansion other than their own as "excessive". Even Bornstellar picked up and pointed out the hypocrisy.

I know this, and I used to make this very argument myself about how the Forerunner's leadership were hypocritical, hegemonizing -blam!-s and the majority of their populace content with genocide and susceptible to the very fallacy they accuse Humans of; generalizing whole species and being bigoted. In other words, all in all, no better themselves. Bear probably wrote this in to show their hypocrisy, but it just seems to me that 343i and Traviss are just taking it a face value and running with it in the most shallow way possible. Despite how hard I tell myself that Bear was intending for there to be hypocrisy there, the fact that Jul basically says exactly what the Didact says makes me think that 343i don't really see it that way. I didn't mind it in Cryptum when I read it the first time (Well I did a little bit; there was a complete lack of any sort of contention to the Didact's ridiculous opinions, and Born's statements seemed a bit too anvilicious and naive to be definitive), but now I am starting to realize that this is possibly a systemic theme running all throughout 343i's work.

I mean it's not even the fact that they took the Forerunner down that road about being moralizing, hypocrisy or not, that I really find silly. I could put up with it if they were criticizing Humanity as it is now, or the UNSC, as these are clearly flawed societies with a lot of messed up stuff currently happening. In a way, the Didact is right about us just now. However, this Ancient Humanity is not us and it isn't the UNSC. It is supposed to be a Tier 1 civilization most likely with thousands of years of development behind it - and the best you could expect out of Humanity after all that time was basically the same old - xenophobia, warmongering, irrationality, etc. The Forerunners being hypocrites in this case doesn't really help, because hypocrites can still be right about that which they criticise. The only way I'd be happy is if it turns out that the Didact was flat out wrong in what he said, as well as being a hypocrite, and of course there being little to no mention of it in Glasslands, where it never fit in the first place.

  • 08.24.2012 9:50 PM PDT

Ad honorem

I dont think Halos tone has ever been optimistic unless your of t american/Anglo Saxon/ European /Christian Descent it seems like a pan american universe with most other cultures bleached out of existence and its only now with Glasslands that hard questions are being asked. 343 need to ask these questions and if necessary rip cannon up and throw it away because previous cannon is unsuitable for kids. or just quit selling mega bloks and action figures in toys r us.

Halysey is hated yes but some of the characters are being manipulated to do so. so many hardcore fans seem to miss this distinction plus it the first book of the series with a whole story arc of its own ahead of it I personally think Halsey is being set up for redemption and paragnosky as the villain again another point hardcore fans wilfully miss.

  • 09.04.2012 12:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Well everybody should consider maggie a villain after TTW.

  • 09.04.2012 12:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101
Well everybody should consider maggie a villain after TTW.


Agreed.

  • 09.04.2012 12:34 PM PDT

Ad honorem

have not read Thursday war but have it on order

  • 09.04.2012 12:43 PM PDT

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Posted by: Sir Fragula
I still need to read this. Every time I've checked on Kindle it hasn't been available in England. :(



Your time will come.

  • 09.04.2012 12:45 PM PDT