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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked
  • Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked
Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked

We're concerned

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You don't work

  • 08.17.2012 9:48 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: Avatar Korra
I thought the OP was a mythic.
Banned for admitting to purposefully breaking the rules.

[Edited on 08.17.2012 9:54 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2012 9:52 PM PDT

Rain, and Jazz.
Halo: Tactical

I'm either a fool or an inteligent man, depending on how sleepy or angry I am.

I originaly made an account on 07.27.2007 but I wanted to link my GT and made this account. Don't forget your passwords!

I find it more of a goal to reach for. It is, for me, a major reason to avoid bans. I do not skirt away from the line, but I have been much more wary of if I post is nessesary, relevant, or rude.

I have seen very, very small amounts of eliteism. I do respect the people who have been here longer than me more than I respect a "member". When it comes down to it I always judge on a post-by-post basis, aside from offtopic behavioral or posting patterns I notice from a user that I recognise.

The posts bashing The Flood will always be there if The Flood remains the way it is. I've always seen and half-agree with threads bashing The Flood for the same reasons over the years I've been here. Ironically a huge majority of my posts are in The Flood.

  • 08.17.2012 10:07 PM PDT

Non facete nobis calcitrare vestrvm perinaevm.

Posted by: Achronos
You imply a level of control over Halo: Reach matchmaking that we no longer have. Or, in your vernacular, it isn't our shiznit anymore.


Active 9/1/11, Heroic 12/25/12

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: squirrel dude
it created elitism
Show me legitimate elitism generated by titles.
There is absolutely nothing to this thread because nobody can link any real examples of elitism. If you can, please do.

Yes, Legendary and Mythic members are quoted more often. This is a fact and you can see it in almost every thread. Is this a problem? No. To make this simple I'm going to say that member titles only depend on your join date and how often/recently you've been banned/warned. Higher titled members are quoted more often because they generally type posts that are more well thought out and encourage discussion. Why is that? Higher titled members have been on the site longer and haven't been banned as often/recently. This means they have more experience with adding discussion to a thread without breaking the forum rules. Like CrazzySnipe55 said, it's simple logic. If you are more experienced with something you are going to be more successful.

Reasons Why The Title System is Good
Posted by: squirrel dude
1. It will provide for members an incentive to be an active member that behaves within the rules of the forums
This is true. Members think twice about posting something that is on the line of rule-breaking because they like their shiny hat.

2. Titles quickly show the reader how long they have been on the site and how often/recently they have been banned.

Reasons Why The Title System is Bad
1. Title farming. Members create and post in threads just so they could get a higher title. This creates posts that are not as well thought out as other posts because their only purpose is to advance in their title rank.

2. Complaining. Members of Bungie.net take titles too seriously. They are shiny hats that don't give any advantages or disadvantages to anyone.
The benefits outweigh the disadvantages in my opinion, but that's for us to discuss until the end of time.

TL;DR

  • 08.17.2012 10:28 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: squirrel dude
Want to know what's fun, being told that your ideas are dumber than what is expected from a mythic member, by another mythic member. Had that happen to me (the most recent time, not for a good reason), and surprisingly, it's actually not that fun. If you wondering how that represents elitism, I would be to. I'll explain.
Would you blame Abraham because a small minority of the human population (the German National Socialist Party) happened to view the religion that he spawned as evil and worthy of killing 6 million followers of said religion? No, you would blame the German National Socialist Party. The way a small minority interprets an action or idea shouldn't be cited as a reason for the idea being a failure.
1. Really, we're bringing in the National Socialist Party? Really?
2. That's not even an adequate analogy. At all. The example I used was people who benefited from the same system I did (the title bar system) telling me that I wasn't living up to their expectations of one of their peers.

A more appropriate one would be if at some yacht club, I was told by another member that my theories on modern art weren't deep enough. We're two people who have both benefited from the same system (economic imbalance) and he's patrolling class (ugh, that word) borders with his comments. That would be an example of what happened.

It shows that there is a cultural understanding (as much as their can be on the internet, where a generation is really about 2 to 3 years long) that a mythic member is expected to be smarter or better. If there is an acceptance that mythic members are smarter and better than others, then I think that clearly shows that elitism is present.
They're only expected to be like that because they're expected to be older. If you consider most people join the site when they're 13, 14, 15, 16, then by the time they get mythic they're at least 16, 17, 18, 19 and therefore shown to be at an older, more mature age.

It's simple, easily conveyable logic. I can look at a mythic member and know they've been here for a year within a millisecond. It only makes sense to look at a mythic member and assume they've been here 3 years because most mythics (I would assume) don't get mythic, get banned, then have to climb back for another 6 months to a year or however long it takes. It's literally like you're wearing a shirt that says "I'm probably 3 years old".
You might be right. But isn't the system supposed to reward better members, and not ones that have been around longer? The fact that maintained a fabled mythic member status after not posting for weeks at a time for a couple of months does not shine well on the title bar system. The fact that multiple members have talked about how they have sat around without changing their title does not shine well on the system.

And here we are talking about how accurate the system is. Dammit. Didn't want to go here go here.

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: Avatar Korra
I thought the OP was a mythic.
Banned for being awesome.
fixed :P

Posted by: snipe champpppp
You don't work
It's true, I'm unemployed. I look to change that before February.

[Edited on 08.17.2012 11:26 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2012 10:46 PM PDT

“Oh, it’s a little bit of everything, it’s the mountains, it’s the fog, it’s the news at six o’clock, it’s the death of my first dog, it’s the angels up above me, it’s the song that they don’t sing, It’s a little bit of everything.”
- Dawes, A little bit of everything

It was clearly ze germanz.

  • 08.17.2012 10:47 PM PDT

Achronos said they're there for fun, and in that aspect I think it's done the job. I like participating in the theories, guesses, etc about the system, and I enjoy leveling up in it. It also keeps me moderately active and makes me a good boy.

I think it should stay.

  • 08.17.2012 11:22 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: squirrel dude
1. Really, we're bringing in the National Socialist Party? Really?
2. That's not even an adequate analogy. At all. The example I used was people who benefited from the same system I did (the title bar system) telling me that I wasn't living up to their expectations of one of their peers.

A more appropriate one would be if at some yacht club, I was told by another member that my theories on modern art weren't deep enough. We're two people who have both benefited from the same system (economic imbalance) and he's patrolling class (ugh, that word) borders with his comments. That would be an example of what happened.
My point is: just because you had one bad run in with one -blam!- doesn't mean that most people, let alone most mythics or even a large quantity or people/mythics use Titles as leverage in a debate of who's cooler or "better". Actual, legitimate, non-sarcastic or satiric elitism on this site is incredibly difficult to come by and usually it's done by people below the Mythic rank anyway (presumably because they wish they were Mythic and want to pretend that their rank is better for some reason). And that right there is not elitism. That is a fact. People strive to be Mythic and are upset when they can't easily or quickly attain it. Mythic status shows you're one of the more seasoned members of the site and (almost) everyone wants that.

To say that people would get upset at not being Mythic isn't being elitist, it's being observant and realistic.

You might be right. But isn't the system supposed to reward better members, and not ones that have been around longer. The fact that maintained a fabled mythic member status after not posting for weeks at a time for a couple of months does not shine well on the title bar system. The fact that multiple members have talked about how they have sat around without changing their title does not shine well on the system.
The point of the titles system is to have fun.

The requirements of a fabled prefix are based on post count. That's why most people keep the prefix after their banned. Because it's not dependent on bans, warnings, activity, etc.

Also, keep in mind, this is a (very sophisticated) script or program or whatever you call it running this title system. It attributes and takes away trust based on a system, and isn't random. It's completely objective and any randomness or inconsistencies people run into are either the not understanding the way the system works or them not realizing that they've changed something that the system clearly takes into account (post size, PPD, thread count, etc. I don't pretend to know what it takes into account).

Also, the point of the title system is fun. The reward comes from the fun of having a "bigger" and "better" title. And yes, I said better. That, too, is not elitism. Mythic is better than Heroic. If these were ranks, Mythic would be Higher than Heroic. Mythic is to Heroic as Fabled is to Intrepid as Exalted is to Honorable as Elder is to Veteran.

  • 08.17.2012 11:35 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: squirrel dude
1. Really, we're bringing in the National Socialist Party? Really?
2. That's not even an adequate analogy. At all. The example I used was people who benefited from the same system I did (the title bar system) telling me that I wasn't living up to their expectations of one of their peers.

A more appropriate one would be if at some yacht club, I was told by another member that my theories on modern art weren't deep enough. We're two people who have both benefited from the same system (economic imbalance) and he's patrolling class (ugh, that word) borders with his comments. That would be an example of what happened.
My point is: just because you had one bad run in with one -blam!- doesn't mean that most people, let alone most mythics or even a large quantity or people/mythics use Titles as leverage in a debate of who's cooler or "better".
Isn't it a problem, no matter what. Especially considering the statement, "I expect more from a mythic member" only exists if we have a title system?

Actual, legitimate, non-sarcastic or satiric elitism on this site is incredibly difficult to come by and usually it's done by people below the Mythic rank anyway (presumably because they wish they were Mythic and want to pretend that their rank is better for some reason).And that right there is not elitism. That is a fact. No, that is elitism. That is wonderful, wonderful elitism. "Us better members aren't elitist, it's those lower classes who just don't know better yet that are elitist." Wow. Don't even try to hide behind some crap about it being satire or sarcasm. That was just some delicious elitism.

People strive to be Mythic and are upset when they can't easily or quickly attain it. Mythic status shows you're one of the more seasoned members of the site and (almost) everyone wants that.I'm still just stunned by your above statement. Again, wow.[/]

You might be right. But isn't the system supposed to reward better members, and not ones that have been around longer. The fact that I maintained a [i]fabled
mythic member status after not posting for weeks at a time for a couple of months does not shine well on the title bar system. The fact that multiple members have talked about how they have sat around without changing their title does not shine well on the system.
The point of the titles system is to have fun.Time to actually address the "it's for fun" statements. It's simply disingenuous. The system wasn't put in place because Achronos thought it would be fun. Don't lie you to yourself. If the members never asked for it to be put into place it wouldn't have been. If membership didn't ask for it, or want it, there would be no reason for Achronos and the webteam to devote resources to this project. Thus, ultimately, the reason it's in place should be the reasons members argued for it to be put in place. That's its purpose.

Even if it is for fun, that's not an excuse to have a flawed system.

The requirements of a fabled prefix are based on post count. That's why most people keep the prefix after their banned. Because it's not dependent on bans, warnings, activity, etc.

Also, keep in mind, this is a (very sophisticated) script or program or whatever you call it running this title system. It attributes and takes away trust based on a system, and isn't random. It's completely objective and any randomness or inconsistencies people run into are either the not understanding the way the system works or them not realizing that they've changed something that the system clearly takes into account (post size, PPD, thread count, etc. I don't pretend to know what it takes into account).
Unfortunately, we can't make any claims about how the sophisticated the system is, how things are weighed or how effective it is in any precise terms. We've never been told what it is. For all we know it could be a simple formula that multiplies (posts per day x years on the website )/(# of bans x duration of bans) all then put into a ranking system.

Also, the point of the title system is fun. Fun still isn't an excuse for a flawed system. Baseball is also supposed to be fun, but I'm pretty sure the umpires and coaches let everyone know the rules before the kids start playing.

The reward comes from the fun of having a "bigger" and "better" title. And yes, I said better. That, too, is not elitism.Mythic is better than Heroic. If these were ranks, Mythic would be Higher than Heroic. Mythic is to Heroic as Fabled is to Intrepid as Exalted is to Honorable as Elder is to Veteran.The fact that really any value is put in these ranks, when we don't how know their earned is a little silly, don't you think? We're told to run a Halo series Race game, against everyone one, without knowing what the fastest time is, or where the checkpoints are. Ultimately you can make guesses at to where they are, but no one should be happy with that system.

I personally think that we shouldn't be told how the system works because then people might game it, I think you're being foolish. The system is supposed to encourage good behavior, so "gaming the system," so to speak, should only be a good thing for the community.

Others have commented in this thread how people can game the system by posting more often and creating more poorly thought out threads. Guess what, if a system, "for fun," encourages members to spam to get a different, no "better" title, then the system is flawed and should be changed.

  • 08.18.2012 12:25 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

I'll keep it short.

In brief, I mostly agree with you, OP, but I think that at this point, a bit of perspective is needed. Regardless of what anyone says, the title system should encourage good behavior. Perhaps someone here is misremembering Bungie.net history, but Achronos never stated that the titles were purely for "fun." What he said was that the member titles are not meant to be a final and total measure of encouraging good behavior, but rather "the first of a few ideas I have for rewarding members who do well."

Let's also remember that, in that very same post, Achronos acknowledged that member titles WOULD become a basis for elitism, but that is not a function of the member title system. Rather, it is a function of this community's insistence upon creating artificial dividers to stratify itself no matter what the web team does to try to prevent it. It's only natural -- if a person cannot distinguish himself or herself on the content of his or her posts, he or she naturally looks for other ways to do so and other folks to identify with and reinforce that false self-image.

With all that in mind, I have been a proponent right from the very start that additional rewards and punishments should be put in place to encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior. While many (probably most, actually) users here are perfectly happy to just participate in and contribute to interesting threads with other people who have similar interests, it is now clear that member titles (on the encouragement side) and warnings/bans (on the punishment side) simply don't do it for others. I think that the member title is a good jumping-off point and actually does work to a small degree, but it is not and has never been any kind of be-all-end-all system.

And I think that, of all people, Achronos fully realizes this and has never intended it to be that way. I think people need to give him a lot more credit. Maybe it sounds like brown-nosing, but he's shown time and time again -- sometimes in the public forums and sometimes only in private -- that he knows what he is doing and can frequently predict YEARS in advance what effect certain actions will have upon this and other dynamic, complex online communities. Remember that Bungie.net is very much on the cutting edge of online gaming communities, and one idea feeds the next as we continue forward into mostly uncharted territory.

That's it.

[Edited on 08.18.2012 1:01 AM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 12:51 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
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They asked what I wanted to be when I grew up;

I wrote down happy.

They told me I didn't understand the assignment;

I told them they don't understand life. - John Lennon

I'm frankly sick and tired of the cries of elitism everyone also makes here. We've tried removing titles, removing join dates, banning the word noob, yet you people still create divisions like this anyway, be it on skill level in the game, using various words, grammar, etc. I've come to the conclusion that part of the problem around here is that there is no real incentive for people to behave well other than "you won't get banned." And even then, some of you just create new accounts and continue being jerks on those accounts. - Achronos

Agreed, my Overloard.

I like the title system. It's incentive for me to remain active, post quality post/threads and to remain un-ban.

  • 08.18.2012 2:39 AM PDT

I still don't see the point of the title system. It gives me absolutely no reason to use this account over a brand new one, or to not get banned. The only reason I would want to not get banned and use the same account is to participate in the b.net community. If you don't want to participate, you probably don't care about titles, either.

  • 08.18.2012 2:50 AM PDT

Posted by: Primum Agmen
A tosser is the same as a wanker. To toss oneself off is to fondle the trouser weasel.


Current Gamertag:
JesusWasAHindu

I am Mythic therefore this thread is bad mmk

  • 08.18.2012 3:00 AM PDT

The system is a cool way to make your stay more interesting. "Elitism" is a lot of rubbish, it isn't an issue. Even if it's brought up it's usually just a bit of banter not to be taken seriously. The title system makes things more interesting and works fine, just leave it.

  • 08.18.2012 3:27 AM PDT

http://www.capturemyhaloclips.com/ - Get your Halo clips captured.
The Artists Corner - Show other members your artistic talent.
Storywrite - Where I am writing my book.


Posted by: x Foman123 x
I'll keep it short.

Jeez, Foman. If that's the short version what did you have planned for the long version?


OT: Whilst the title system is not entirely accurate it should be not the cause to start arguments or debates. If you ran into one douche who has a mythic title that's no reason to judge the rest of those with mythic titles.

[Edited on 08.18.2012 4:50 AM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 4:50 AM PDT

There is no elitism, just some people don't seem to understand jokes/sarcasm.

  • 08.18.2012 4:56 AM PDT
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Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter

I still go off joindate coz lol08mythix

  • 08.18.2012 5:01 AM PDT

Won't be long before 08 is an old date. I can't wait to sound like an old fart.

"The Flood? It was a crappy forum....BUT IT WAS OUR CRAPPY FORUM."

Posted by: deltahalo UK
I still go off joindate coz lol08mythix

  • 08.18.2012 7:01 AM PDT
  • gamertag: Poy357
  • user homepage:

Being elitist over a title on the internet is ridiculous.

Besides, what is the intended purpose of the title bar? At most, it is simply a sign that you are mature enough to last (insert time here) years or so without being banned.

Otherwise, see this

[Edited on 08.18.2012 7:08 AM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 7:08 AM PDT

There once was an ugly barnacle. He was so ugly that everyone died.

The end.

SCFH

I love the system. Maybe its because i'm a Mythic. No bias here.

But i think that those who don't like it are those who have been banned/recieved warnings and so its harder to get titles.

  • 08.18.2012 7:11 AM PDT

Stupidity, when sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic

It worked for me. Several times it's been the only thing keeping me from clicking that "submit" button when I knew I shouldn't.

  • 08.18.2012 7:13 AM PDT

Old School Gamer and Proud Member of the Seventh Column

I would have paid more attention to his argument had he been a Mythic.

Wait a minute . . . You are a mere "Member." I don't associate with "Members".


Posted by: Avatar Korra
I thought the OP was a mythic.


[Edited on 08.18.2012 7:31 AM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 7:30 AM PDT

In a time long past, the armies of the dark came again to the lands of men. Their leaders became known as the fallen lords, and their terrible sorcery was without equal in the west.
In 30 years they reduced the civilized nations into carrion and ash. Until the free city of Madrigal alone defined them. An army gathered there, and a desperate battle was joined against the fallen
Heros were born in the fire and bloodshed of the wars which followed and their names and deeds will never be forgotten

I thought the title system was for fun and not meant to accomplish anything

  • 08.18.2012 7:37 AM PDT

Posted by: squirrel dude
In addition to this, there is elitism that comes from titles. Almost immediately after the title system was implemented, a mythic members group was created, and a legendary members group was created. I wouldn't be surprised if a heroic members group existed. There's nothing wrong with groups being created, but they do show how almost immediately the title system had begun to divide members into (oh, this next word will get me in trouble) classes.
Well yeah, but this isn't a bad thing. Ignoring the title groups that are not mythic (because from what I know they're just taking the piss) Mythix is an excellent part of this website. They most certainly divided people. I'd hazard a guess that Mythix has also helped retain people to some degree. It provides a meeting ground for those folk getting to the point where leaving looks like a good option, one that wouldn't exist otherwise unless you're fortunate enough to still be in an active community when you get it. The nature of titles presents a constant influx of new members, and anyone who we don't chase off for being terrible keeps things somewhat fresh. And those we do chase off provide entertainment for a bit.

You can fault titles for plenty of real or imagined things, but I can't really see how Mythix is a negative result. The members in there wouldn't be contributing to the mains in any case, it might help keep some around, and it provides a measure of positive reinforcement for people to strive towards mythic, because they know the title gets them access to one of the better active groups on this site.

  • 08.18.2012 7:40 AM PDT