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  • Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked
Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked

The WorkPLace

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
And Cobravert is absolutely correct.

Posted by: Der Todesengel
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and Cobra."
- Der

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
Don't listen to anything Cobravert says.

*cough*
Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
And Cobravert is absolutely correct

  • 08.18.2012 11:43 AM PDT
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Posted by: Der Todesengel
This doesn't mean I don't still hate you


WorkPLace l Mythics l Regulars

RIP BerserkerBarage DeathPimp72


Posted by: Cobravert
Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
Don't listen to anything Cobravert says.

*cough*
Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
And Cobravert is absolutely correct


Son of a -blam!- I hate you.

  • 08.18.2012 11:48 AM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: Cobravert
The Flood =/= B.net population
imo
I have no use for that forum.
Actually, statistically speaking, The Flood represents a majority of Bungie.net's currently active population. Close to 70% in fact.

source



Don't worry crazzysnipe55, I'm working on a reply for you, too. I'm just having some issues with quote-box formatting and unicode restrictions.

[Edited on 08.18.2012 11:58 AM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 11:57 AM PDT

Key

OP, you shoul respond to my post. I'm calling you OP because you're only a heroic member now and I can't be bothered to remember your name and you should respond to me because my point it better because I'm a legendary.

  • 08.18.2012 12:08 PM PDT

Posted by: Enormous Corgi
Posted by: Unanimate Objec
There's no way Nate Hawbaker's favorite hero is Alan Stuart


ALAN IS A BEAUTIFUL MAN!


Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
OP, you shoul respond to my post. I'm calling you OP because you're only a heroic member now and I can't be bothered to remember your name and you should respond to me because my point it better because I'm a legendary.



The best debates are the civilized ones. Throwing a person's opinion back in their face for an argument won't make the argument magically solve itself.

  • 08.18.2012 12:11 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: Unanimate Objec

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
OP, you shoul respond to my post. I'm calling you OP because you're only a heroic member now and I can't be bothered to remember your name and you should respond to me because my point it better because I'm a legendary.



The best debates are the civilized ones. Throwing a person's opinion back in their face for an argument won't make the argument magically solve itself.
I'm not even making a point, I'm making a joke.

  • 08.18.2012 12:17 PM PDT

Owning Noobs Since 05

"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers."

Jim Harkins


Posted by: squirrel dude
Actually, statistically speaking, The Flood represents a majority of Bungie.net's currently active population. Close to 70% in fact.

source


No offense but your source is crap.

Posted by: squirrel dude



Has the title system worked as intended?
If you read the title to the post, then you should know my answer: No, it hasn't worked. I do not believe that the title system has generated better community behavior, and I do think that elitism has emerged from the title system. The same

Opinions are fun.

Posted by: squirrel dude
there not being enough moderators are posted just like the threads that came before them.

I disagree I think we have more then enough moderators. Ya sometimes we have spam attacks but that's just because moderators have lifes and can't all be here 100% of the time. They are not payed to do this so I don't expect them to have a schedule so there is at least on mod online at all times.

Posted by: squirrel dude
In addition to this, there is elitism that comes from titles. Almost immediately after the title system was implemented, a mythic members group was created, and a legendary members group was created. I wouldn't be surprised if a heroic members group existed. There's nothing wrong with groups being created, but they do show how almost immediately the title system had begun to divide members into (oh, this next word will get me in trouble) classes.

I honestly do not believe the elitism to be that strong of an issue, but I think it would be foolish to deny its existence. To say that members don't quote mythic members simply because they are mythic members would be like saying that members don't quote moderators and employees just because they are employees. So, we still have elitism, and most would say that The Flood and other forums haven't improved because of anything other than a decrease in activity. Whether or not you think that the title system works well in determining who gets what title, isn't it fair to say that the title system hasn't worked as advertised?


Posted by: Sketch
It has been discussed off and on for years now, you're right. I personally have no problem with "Elitism." We already have it in some ways. Only an elite group of people have Recon armor, for example. Some of us have colored text, others do not. Some people have special fancy titles, others do not.

Private groups could certainly fill this need but with the current implementation, they just aren't discoverable enough.

I still think we'll find a way to continue to build on the titles you have on your name now, cross reference that with a persons history for behavior and contributions and their online reputation and create tiers of members where we can segregate like minded community members into appropriate groups.

To each his own. I disagree. And I think people would welcome an opportunity to engage in discussions with other like-minded fans without having a few thousand jerks raining on the parade. Let the bad kids hang with the bad kids, let the good people hang with the good people. Since we dont let users 'mute' other people's posts, we need to find ways to build those barriers for you.

And if anything, this wouldn't be site wide, there would be still be plenty of overcrowded common forums full of people talking over each other and fighting with one another


I swear your just trolling right now.

  • 08.18.2012 12:21 PM PDT

ooga booga boooh

I've never really been a big fan of the title system, myself. It's not even that if harbors elitism. That's going to happen anywhere and everywhere, no matter what part of the internet or real world you visit. I just think it's pointless.

Many image boards and message boards I visit just don't use a title system. I like the simplicity of those boards much more. I enjoy the ones I go to where there is a username, join date, and post count. Actually, the best ones don't even have post counts at all. They simply have a user name and join date.

I couldn't care less about the elitism the title system here has created. Most of the diehard, older members post of The Flood and private groups. And no one cares about anything in either of those areas of the website. I just simply don't think we need a title system period.

  • 08.18.2012 12:53 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: Verachi
Posted by: squirrel dude
Actually, statistically speaking, The Flood represents a majority of Bungie.net's currently active population. Close to 70% in fact.

source
No offense but your source is crap.
Show me a better one.

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: Unanimate Objec
Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
OP, you shoul respond to my post. I'm calling you OP because you're only a heroic member now and I can't be bothered to remember your name and you should respond to me because my point it better because I'm a legendary.



The best debates are the civilized ones. Throwing a person's opinion back in their face for an argument won't make the argument magically solve itself.
I'm not even making a point, I'm making a joke.
And it was funny.

Still working on the big one. CAVX's converter isn't working for me, for some reason, so this is taking a while.

  • 08.18.2012 12:54 PM PDT

Owning Noobs Since 05

"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers."

Jim Harkins


Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: Verachi
Posted by: squirrel dude
Actually, statistically speaking, The Flood represents a majority of Bungie.net's currently active population. Close to 70% in fact.

source
No offense but your source is crap.
Show me a better one.


I'll pass on that dance but it still doesn't change the fact that your source is crap. Sorry bud. Only the web team can be a legit source for that and as far as I know they haven't released anything about those statistics.

  • 08.18.2012 12:57 PM PDT

Posted by: Verachi
Why are you so good at finding perfect quotes from the past?

  • 08.18.2012 12:58 PM PDT

ooga booga boooh


Posted by: Verachi
Sorry bud. Only the web team can be a legit source for that and as far as I know they haven't released anything about those statistics.

But the chances of them ever showing us these statistics are? I think squirrel's serve a fine purpose until we see the more nitty-gritty ones.

  • 08.18.2012 12:59 PM PDT

Owning Noobs Since 05

"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers."

Jim Harkins


Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Posted by: Verachi
Why are you so good at finding perfect quotes from the past?


I like to call it hax.

  • 08.18.2012 1:00 PM PDT

Posted by: Verachi

Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Posted by: Verachi
Why are you so good at finding perfect quotes from the past?


I like to call it hax.
*backs away*

Spare us, spare us all!!!! Uber hax!!!

  • 08.18.2012 1:01 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Post A

Alright, let's do this. LEERO- you know the rest. It's gonna take two posts people, be patient.
Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: squirrel dude
Isn't it a problem, no matter what. Especially considering the statement, "I expect more from a mythic member" only exists if we have a title system?

No, it's really not. What happened to you sucks, plain and simple. But just because something like that happened to you doesn't mean that we should all throw up our arms and cry foul of the system most of us have no problem with.

Ol' Charlie Manson was a huge fan of the song Helter Skelter by the Beatles and thought that it (Helter Skelter) would be a race war that would shoot the world into the apocalypse. So, because the Beatles wrote one song that one person misinterpreted, should we now accost the Beatles and label them as a terrible bunch of people and them and their awful song to be just as much of a cause for the murders of Sharon Tate and her house guests as Charles and his Family? No.

We should blame (entirely) Charles Manson and his Family for being an infinitesimally small portion of the people who had heard that song and interpreted it in one particular way that ended in a murderous rampage. Neither the Beatles with Helter Skelter, nor the Web Team with the Title system should be at blame for Charles Manson or whoever PM'd you (respectively).

It wasn't in a PM, it was in the public forum. Probably irrelevant, but let's get our facts straight, eh?

The event isn't equivalent to Charlie Manson (I'm not that crazy, c'mon), and the title system isn't equivalent to helter skelter. The event is more like a couple of kids making fun of their friend for being girly (or tomboyish, whichever). They're applying their knowledge of gender norms to segregate their friend or shame him into becoming more normal. Ultimately it's a small even in a child's life, but it's representative of cultural gender norms.

No, that is elitism. That is wonderful, wonderful elitism. "Us better members aren't elitist, it's those lower classes who just don't know better yet that are elitist." Wow. Don't even try to hide behind some crap about it being satire or sarcasm. That was just some delicious elitism.
The level of complete and utter ignorance and bewildering obliviousness you're displaying right now is profound.
What you said, is what you said, and it was elitist.

Members who try to not get their title taken away want to be Mythic. If this was a ranking system it would go Member -> Heroic -> Legendary -> Mythic. Heroics who try to not get their title taken away want to be Mythic. I've been saying stuff about the lower... levels? being the ones who create all of the elitism since before I was even Heroic so don't throw that -blam!- at me.
Oh, you were heroic before? Did you also work your way up the corporate ladder before you became wealthy. Yeah, you still understand of the common man. *thumbs up*

Heroics who try to not get their title taken away want to be Mythic...
Legendaries who try to not get their title taken away want to be Mythics.
Or they're just being good community member who aren't trying to get banned, but I see your point, and agree with. They're working to get to the upper class, like all of us.

It is a simple fact that to have the Mythic title is better than having the Legendary title is better than having the Heroic title is better than having no title as far as the title system is concerned. Having the Mythic Title means that you have a higher trust rating than someone with the Legendary Title. The same goes for Legendary to Heroic, and Heroic to Members.

It is not elitism it point out that the rank of General is higher than the rank of Captain is higher than the rank of Sergeant is higher than the rank of Private. It's pointing out a fact. The fact that you can't stop being so butthurt about the fact that one person said a mean thing to you one time and actually realize that there's no -blam!- elitism present on this site is astounding.
You wanted an example, I gave you an example. Don't be upset I easily found, and then you gave me the most beautiful one ever?
Posted by:CrazzySnipe55
Actual, legitimate, non-sarcastic or satiric elitism on this site is incredibly difficult to come by and usually it's done by people below the Mythic rank anyway (presumably because they wish they were Mythic and want to pretend that their rank is better for some reason).And that right there is not elitism. That is a fact.
You shouldn't have asked me to show you an example of elitism, and then when I say it isn't representative of the system. If a singular example isn't representative of the system in your eyes, then you shouldn't have asked for it in the first place.

Holy jesus monkey ballsack. If you've got no points, you want ALL the points. If you've got 1 point you want 2. If you've got 3 points you want 4. If you've got 4 points you want to keep all of your damn points. This is not a difficult concept to grasp, man.
Oh I grasp that, and I'm critical of it. The titles should be representative of better membership activity, and I don't think the current point system accurately reflects that.

Time to actually address the "it's for fun" statements.Gladly.

It's simply disingenuous.I AM NOT LYING, JOKING, BEING SARCASTIC, OR USING SATIRE."
*thumbs up*

The system wasn't put in place because Achronos thought it would be fun. Don't lie you to yourself. If the members never asked for it to be put into place it wouldn't have been.What an idiotic statement. No -blam!- if they hadn't suggested it wouldn't have been put in. That's the Community Forum at work right there. If the Community suggested a Get-Together/Water Balloon Fight that'd be fun, and suggested by the Community. Things can be suggested by the Community and also fun.

If membership didn't ask for it, or want it, there would be no reason for Achronos and the webteam to devote resources to this project.I see no argument against it being fun so far.
Something being fun, and something being for fun, are the not the same thing. Children have fun with pots and pans, but that doesn't mean that pots and pans are there for children to play with them.

Thus, ultimately, the reason it's in place should be the reasons members argued for it to be put in place. That's its purpose.Its purpose to be in place is so that it can be in place? LOLno.Remember the first post, that OP, where I showed the basic reasons for why the system is currently in place? Yeah, those would be reasons it's in place not so that it can in place. Honestly, where did you get that from?

Even if it is for fun, that's not an excuse to have a flawed system.It's not flawed. MMmmmmm... Yeah it is. I'd say more, but you didn't.

You're just pissed off because one person one time was a dick to you. Both can be true. I don't know if you know this, but I can both be upset at a person, and think that a system is flawed without being biased. I've already filled out the butthurt report form and everything.



Unfortunately, we can't make any claims about how the sophisticated the system is, how things are weighed or how effective it is in any precise terms. We've never been told what it is. For all we know it could be a simple formula that multiplies (posts per day x years on the website )/(# of bans x duration of bans) all then put into a ranking system.
We've been told there's a trust rating. And that you lose something like 1000 trust after you've been banned. Your "simple" formula doesn't seem to fit the bill here.
A point system isn't that sophisticated. Hell, I'll just draw one up that might give similar results.
200 points for each year of membership
30 points for post per day
-1000 points for a ban.
-100 for warning
That would give me about: 500 points. That might be enough for a simple heroic title. It's all based on a scale of other members, after all. Again, that wouldn't be all that sophisticated of a system.

[Edited on 08.18.2012 1:03 PM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 1:02 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Post B

Unfortunately, we can't make any claims about how the sophisticated the system is, how things are weighed or how effective it is in any precise terms. We've never been told what it is. For all we know it could be a simple formula that multiplies (posts per day x years on the website )/(# of bans x duration of bans) all then put into a ranking system.
We've been told there's a trust rating. And that you lose something like 1000 trust after you've been banned. Your "simple" formula doesn't seem to fit the bill here.
A point system isn't that sophisticated. Hell, I'll just draw one up that might give similar results.
200 points for each year of membership
30 points for post per day
-1000 points for a ban.
-100 for warning
That would give me about: 500 points. That might be enough for a simple heroic title. It's all based on a scale of other members, after all. Again, that wouldn't be all that sophisticated of a system.

Fun still isn't an excuse for a flawed system. Baseball is also supposed to be fun, but I'm pretty sure the umpires and coaches let everyone know the rules before the kids start playing.
We do know the rules. They're posted right there above the forums. The rules are "Post. Don't get banned. Don't be a dick."

What you would be asking for is to have every baseball player have a profound understanding of the physics behind how baseball works. Which is unreasonable.
No, I'm asking for players to be able to know how many outs are in an inning, and how many runs the other team has. As you said, the goal is to reach a certain number of trust points, and if that's the case, I don't think it's unfair to know how many points the other team has.

The fact that really any value is put in these ranks, when we don't how know their earned is a little silly, don't you think?
No. Because we know that 0 = member. Wait, then you could think I'm calling members zeroes. Okay. 1 = member. 2 = heroic. 3 = legendary. 4 = mythic. That is all that we need to know. We know that Member < Heroic < Legendary < Mythic.

I don't need to know that it takes 12,500 trust to get Mythic status and that I currently have 7,300 pink t-points. All I need to know is that Mythic is higher than me, and I have not yet gotten there.
Well, that's fine for you, but it's not good enough for me. We'll just have to disagree here.

I personally think that we shouldn't be told how the system works because then people might game it, I think you're being foolish. The system is supposed to encourage good behavior, so "gaming the system," so to speak, should only be a good thing for the community.
Gaming the system to get Fabled = post spamming and making -blam!--ty posts to get a higher rank. Gaming the system for titles = not posting their opinions sometimes because they think it steps into the very edge of the grey borderline between "okay" and "not okay" and so we lose discussion. The same goes for Honorable, Noble, and Exalted prefixes.
If the system encourages bad posting habits, then it's a bad system, and should be changed.


Others have commented in this thread how people can game the system by posting more often and creating more poorly thought out threads. Guess what, if a system, "for fun," encourages members to spam to get a different, no "better" title, then the system is flawed and should be changed.

There's nothing wrong with 2 prefixes based on post count, and there isn't an epidemic of people trying to game the system.
You're right, if it worked well enough that it didn't encourage spamming to get a higher rank, it would be fine. As you've said, members want higher ranks. I'm sure, based on people being upset by the spamming to get higher ranks, that people spam to get higher ranks. If people are borderline breaking the rules to get a new title, then the system is inaccurate and encourages poor behavior.

Neither of those are good things.

The fact that you're literally suggesting a PERFECT system is absurd and stupid. Incredibly stupid.You know what? You're right! We should aim for mediocrity. Why aim high if it's hard to achieve. High Standards?! That's what I have for Halo games, not a website I use all the time. I'm an idiot! And in the theme of this conversation.

THAT WAS SARCASM!!!!!!111ELEVEN!!!

Posted by: spartain ken 15
As I said before OP, I think you are trying to make it seem like titles have much more of an importance than they really do.
That's because I try to make everything around here more important than they are. It's my bit.

Posted by: Verachi
Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: Verachi
Posted by: squirrel dude
Actually, statistically speaking, The Flood represents a majority of Bungie.net's currently active population. Close to 70% in fact.

source
No offense but your source is crap.
Show me a better one.


I'll pass on that dance but it still doesn't change the fact that your source is crap. Sorry bud. Only the web team can be a legit source for that and as far as I know they haven't released anything about those statistics.
Even if the number is 19% off (a 27% error), the Flood still holds a majority of activity on the forums. The stats don't have to be very accurate to show the point I was making. If you want numbers of just posts in each forum per hour (or longer), I could get those to you in a couple days or so if you want. It's not that hard.

[Edited on 08.18.2012 1:08 PM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 1:03 PM PDT

Owning Noobs Since 05

"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers."

Jim Harkins

Posted by: jacob crawford
But the chances of them ever showing us these statistics are?

Sorry I'm not a chancetologisty so I couldn't tell you. Maybe one day.
Posted by: jacob crawford
I think squirrel's serve a fine purpose until we see the more nitty-gritty ones.

It was a noble attempt but.....nah. K guys how about this, my opinion is that those stats are crap but If you want to take it as something legit then have fun.

Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Posted by: Verachi

Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Posted by: Verachi
Why are you so good at finding perfect quotes from the past?


I like to call it hax.
*backs away*

Spare us, spare us all!!!! Uber hax!!!

Fear my haxnezz

  • 08.18.2012 1:06 PM PDT

Posted by: Verachi
Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Posted by: Verachi

Posted by: Lobster Fish 2
Posted by: Verachi
Why are you so good at finding perfect quotes from the past?


I like to call it hax.
*backs away*

Spare us, spare us all!!!! Uber hax!!!

Fear my haxnezz

I fear being destroyed. Make it quick.

  • 08.18.2012 1:12 PM PDT

Owning Noobs Since 05

"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers."

Jim Harkins


Posted by: squirrel dude
Even if the number is 19% off (a 27% error), the Flood still holds a majority of activity on the forums. The stats don't have to be very accurate to show the point I was making. If you want numbers of just posts in each forum per hour (or longer), I could get those to you in a couple days or so if you want. It's not that hard.


Don't waste your time.

  • 08.18.2012 2:00 PM PDT

Hey, how's it going?

Xbox Ambassador

Ambassador Support Chat

One day I will get Mythic. One day, and on that day I will become an Elitist.

So close yet so far it might as well be a million miles away.

  • 08.18.2012 2:16 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter

The best thing is that people wait for years to get to Mythic then encounter elitism within Mythic
Its great.



[Edited on 08.18.2012 2:27 PM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 2:27 PM PDT

I am a Floodian


Posted by: Verachi

Posted by: squirrel dude
Even if the number is 19% off (a 27% error), the Flood still holds a majority of activity on the forums. The stats don't have to be very accurate to show the point I was making. If you want numbers of just posts in each forum per hour (or longer), I could get those to you in a couple days or so if you want. It's not that hard.


Don't waste your time.
Don't worry about. I'm bored anyway. I can have numbers of 3 hours of activity for you in about 5 hours. Savvy?

  • 08.18.2012 2:29 PM PDT

Meepzoid

I think it has. Hell, if we didnt have the system, I could see myself making a crap load of insults and bans coming my way. It honestly, well in my opinions works because inorder to rank up, you have to be well active and not a jerk.

Now elitism? I don't think so. Infact I find some regular members to be well mannered and more sensible sometimes then some Legendary and Mythic members.

Also, I tend to stick with my point rather then some people who mind you, will usually kiss up to anyone who writes in Orange or anyone with a blue title.

  • 08.18.2012 2:32 PM PDT

Thesaurus.com

SSDD
Title discussion goes nowhere. Odds are titles will be removed because the community can't handle not constantly talking about them.

  • 08.18.2012 2:33 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Logical fallacies backed up by walls of anecdotal evidence. Why I expected any different, I don't know.

Anything short of completely anonymousness forum will cause what you're calling "elitism". Your username, the groups you belong to, the posts you make, your join date, your title, your rank in whatever games are still tracked on this website, your choice of homepage, your choice of what you put in the bio, etc; can all be used to stratify this particular community into subsections and groups. That isn't something that's indicative to this website, it's something that's indicative of natural human behavior (divisions based on country, sex, race, religion, etc). This "elitism" is what allows people to separate into groups and find people they want to associate with.

In real life it may be somewhat of a problem when you decide you only want to hang out with white people but on this website, deciding you only want to hang out with mythic members (or people who joined in 2006, or people who's names begin with b, or groups with over 500 members) allows you to be exposed to a huge range of people and interests because the traits used to stratify the community are arbitrary and stupid. I'd personally rather have people dividing their community by arbitrary characteristics (which chances are includes a larger range of people, ideas, and opinions) than something stupid like race or religion.

[Edited on 08.18.2012 2:36 PM PDT]

  • 08.18.2012 2:35 PM PDT