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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked
  • Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked
Subject: Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked

I am a Floodian

Posted by: Verachi
Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: Verachi
I have a request! Do 2 years of data. If you pull that off then I won't feel that your data is crap. Come back to me when you have that done if not I'm not interested in you 3 hours/2 days datas. Thanks!
See, but data for that long of a period of time wouldn't necessarily be all that helpful. Those numbers would be informative, but they wouldn't be predictive, and that's an important part of any statistical analysis. If the numbers don't have any application they're not especially useful.

If you want it, I could do it. Just do once a month or a once a week checks, throwing numbers in an excel spreadsheet like I've been doing it. It's not much of a time commitment really. An our or so, once a week, at most?

If you want to do this, what month or week would you like to start? Obviously this would be a bad point in a month to start a monthly experiment, as over half the month has passed so the number of total posts and threads are even less likely to equal later months.


It seems that you like doing this kind of stuff so I say go for it. Just start in the beginning of September. We'll resume this conversation in two years.
Weekly or Monthly updates?

Also, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to have to ask for some things from you.
1. I kindly a more complete explanation as to why you scorn my previous data so much.
2. A commitment that you'll be around in two years. What's the point of doing all this for you, if you won't be around to see it. You leaving prematurely would just be rude.
Posted by: Achronos
Despite being professionally insulted at the start of this thread,
Yeah, It's apparently become my life's calling.
I should point out that basing your arguments on this kind of evidence will not work out in your favor.

(that's because the system runs on a schedule, and when you first come off a ban, the system hasn't rechecked your account to see what your new trust value is minus the penalty from the ban - it just so happened that your account was updated an hour after you got off a ban. Short bans tend to not have deep penalties).

Look, it is okay if you don't like the titles. But don't base your argument on systemic details you know nothing about. Keep your thoughts on things like how it affects the community to have the titles, don't worry about the implementation details that you don't have. That's a much more interesting conversation to read anyway.

Posted by: squirrel dude
Quick Evidence that the system isn't effective
- It took only an hour and just 4 posts after I got off a ban to get from member to fabled heroic member.
To be fair, it's a little unfair to criticize the community for making incorrect assumptions about the system, when you won't tell us how it works. If you're only going to let us have anecdotal evidence, you shouldn't get too upset when we use it.

But at the same, we all learned that it's based on a timer system. So that's cool.

[Edited on 08.20.2012 3:04 AM PDT]

  • 08.20.2012 2:46 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Positive vibes.

Elitism will always exist, with or without a title system. You seem to be under the assumption that the title system itself generated a rise in elitist behavior. The title system didn't divide people into different 'classes' - people did. As for these so called 'problems', I fail to see how such trivial things can be deemed as such.

You need to realize that this is a website, and you should be here and to have fun. Sure, arrogance can be bothersome, but the best thing you can do is ignore it. Don't blame the title system for your personal problems, or anyone else's.

My $0.02.

  • 08.20.2012 3:48 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

Did you know that dolphins are so intelligent, that within only a few weeks of captivity, they can train Americans to stand at the very edge of the pool and throw them fish.

Titles shmeitals.

Bah.

My ten bob.

  • 08.20.2012 5:11 AM PDT

"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit,
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it."
-Omar Khayyám-

Posted by: Achronos
Despite being professionally insulted at the start of this thread, [/quote]Yeah, It's apparently become my life's calling.
I should point out that basing your arguments on this kind of evidence will not work out in your favor.

(that's because the system runs on a schedule, and when you first come off a ban, the system hasn't rechecked your account to see what your new trust value is minus the penalty from the ban - it just so happened that your account was updated an hour after you got off a ban. Short bans tend to not have deep penalties).

Look, it is okay if you don't like the titles. But don't base your argument on systemic details you know nothing about. Keep your thoughts on things like how it affects the community to have the titles, don't worry about the implementation details that you don't have. That's a much more interesting conversation to read anyway.

Posted by: squirrel dude
Quick Evidence that the system isn't effective
- It took only an hour and just 4 posts after I got off a ban to get from member to fabled heroic member.
To be fair, it's a little unfair to criticize the community for making incorrect assumptions about the system, when you won't tell us how it works. If you're only going to let us have anecdotal evidence, you shouldn't get too upset when we use it.

But at the same, we all learned that it's based on a timer system. So that's cool.


If Achronos were to reveal the way the title system works then there will be people who will try to hack, or manipulate the system to give them undeserved favors. Achronos, I believe, has stated in the past that this was the primary reason or one of the reasons to not reveal how the system works. Besides you could always go to Duardo's thread on prefixes and titles to see how each prefix and title is earned.

Back on topic: Even though I am not mythic, and I have no other distinguishing features except a kickass prefix for my title, I do feel oddly accomplished. Granted I am sure that titles will probably get phased out for newer, better systems of rewards and punishments for BUNGiE to implement in the future.

What I have always believed in is that if there is something you don't like then don't try to denounce an idea but rather try to come up with a new one yourself. If you think the title system is an ineffective way for reward and punishment then I challenge you to come up with a better system. That's the good thing about B.net and BUNGiE, they listen to what we have to say and implement the changes accordingly.

Example: I was one of the lucky few to participate in the Reach Public Beta and back then the crouch toggling system was slow so you couldn't really teabag like you could back in Halo 1-3. You should have heard how many complaints BUNGiE got for changing that mechanic though they changed it in the first place because a lot of people were complaining about the teabagging. So when Reach came out, the crouching mechanic was sped up so you could stuff your avatar's genitals in your fallen foe's face(say that five times fast) at a quick pace before going back to cracking skulls.

Not everything is perfect and sometimes brilliance takes a crap ton of mistakes to get one thing right. When asked about the 10,000 failures at making the carbon filament for the modern lightbulb, Thomas Edison was quoted as saying "I haven't failed, I just found 10,000 ways not to invent the lightbulb." BUNGiE is the same way, you can say that the title system is a failure but I just view as a way that BUNGiE is trying various things to keep us as a community together and to have fun on their site.

But as I have stated earlier, if you think you can do better than Achronos in implementing a system that rewards people for posting quality topics and posts, and punishes them for breaking the rules in a way you deem fit, then share it. Who knows maybe your idea might be good enough to be implemented by Achronos and the Web Team.

  • 08.20.2012 7:02 AM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...

The fact that I ever became Mythic just goes to show how truly broken the title system really is. Fix your -blam!- Arachnos.

  • 08.20.2012 7:06 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Senior Heroic Member
  • gamertag: Khirna
  • user homepage:

The best victories are the ones the other side didn't expect.

Yes Costco. I need a 50lb bag...I mean sack of sugar.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't use the titles as a way of saying this user is better than another. I use them as a this person has stayed within the boundaries of the site/is probably not trolling as much as this other member.

To a degree, the titles work. Legendaries and Mythics tend to be serious when needed and don't troll alot (Most also have decent grammar). Regular members, or Intrepid/Fabled Members usually spam posts or troll quite often. Perhaps this is a result of seeing most of their posts in the flood, but "Stick it in her pooper" is way too common on this site.

This isn't to say all non-titled members aren't to be taken seriously, but 9 times out of 10, a higher title typically means a more mature/responsible member.

  • 08.20.2012 7:12 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Fabled Legendary Member

ODST Expeditionary Force I The WorkPLace I Mythics
Technically Mythic
Posted by: Cobravert
I just saw a green monkey nut shot a small tan lizard(?) in a gunny sack.


Posted by: Achronos
Look, it is okay if you don't like the titles. But don't base your argument on systemic details you know nothing about. Keep your thoughts on things like how it affects the community to have the titles, don't worry about the implementation details that you don't have. That's a much more interesting conversation to read anyway.


/thread

I mean, really. Why are we still discussing this? Like Achronos said, none of us of privy to the information needed to sustain a thread like this.

  • 08.20.2012 7:18 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: Cobravert
The Flood =/= B.net population
imo
I have no use for that forum.
Actually, statistically speaking, The Flood represents a majority of Bungie.net's currently active population. Close to 70% in fact.

source
\


Can someone explain why OP was banned for this? What rules did it break?

  • 08.20.2012 7:27 AM PDT

Owning Noobs Since 05

"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers."

Jim Harkins



Posted by: squirrel dude
Also, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to have to ask for some things from you.

K
Posted by: squirrel dude
1. I kindly a more complete explanation as to why you scorn my previous data so much.

Receive revelation
Posted by: squirrel dude
2. A commitment that you'll be around in two years. What's the point of doing all this for you, if you won't be around to see it. You leaving prematurely would just be rude.

This is not just for me, its for all humanity. I've been here for 7 years and I don't plan on leaving in two years specially, with Bungie's new game most likely being out by then.
Posted by: squirrel dude
Weekly or Monthly updates?

Yearly reports would be better, with summary's on the weeks and an overview of the months, kind of like a summary of a summary.


I'm tired of this thread, I don't want to bump it anymore k? Just PM me if you have any questions.

  • 08.20.2012 7:41 AM PDT

Ugh...

First on a BWU.. yeah, I'm cool.

ODST;MYTHIC Screenshot winner! One of the first to get their hands on the mythic map pack.

Does being given a higher title make me behave better: Yes.
Does being given a higher title make me more active: Yes.
Does being given a higher title make me feel special: Yes.
Do I quote people with a higher title: No, not always. It depends what their posts are. The likelyhood of a higher titled member posting more quality posts is higher than that of a normal member's post.

The pros outweight the cons.

  • 08.20.2012 1:27 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: Verachi
Posted by: squirrel dude
1. I kindly request a more complete explanation as to why you scorn my previous data so much.

Receive revelation
Well if you're not going to take things seriously. I'm just not going to do it.

Posted by: Tookurdignity
Posted by: Achronos
Despite being professionally insulted at the start of this thread,
Yeah, It's apparently become my life's calling.
I should point out that basing your arguments on this kind of evidence will not work out in your favor.

(that's because the system runs on a schedule, and when you first come off a ban, the system hasn't rechecked your account to see what your new trust value is minus the penalty from the ban - it just so happened that your account was updated an hour after you got off a ban. Short bans tend to not have deep penalties).

Look, it is okay if you don't like the titles. But don't base your argument on systemic details you know nothing about. Keep your thoughts on things like how it affects the community to have the titles, don't worry about the implementation details that you don't have. That's a much more interesting conversation to read anyway.

Posted by: squirrel dude
Quick Evidence that the system isn't effective
- It took only an hour and just 4 posts after I got off a ban to get from member to fabled heroic member.
To be fair, it's a little unfair to criticize the community for making incorrect assumptions about the system, when you won't tell us how it works. If you're only going to let us have anecdotal evidence, you shouldn't get too upset when we use it.

But at the same, we all learned that it's based on a timer system. So that's cool.


If Achronos were to reveal the way the title system works then there will be people who will try to hack, or manipulate the system to give them undeserved favors.[/url]Let me just challenge this argument again in the same way as before. I've yet to hear a convincing argument against it.

If the system is rewards good behavior and good activity, then you shouldn't be able to manipulate the system. If the system can be so easily manipulated then maybe it's a little flawed. Just sayin.

Back on topic: Even though I am not mythic, and I have no other distinguishing features except a kickass prefix for my title, I do feel oddly accomplished. Granted I am sure that titles will probably get phased out for newer, better systems of rewards and punishments for BUNGiE to implement in the future.

What I have always believed in is that if there is something you don't like then don't try to denounce an idea but rather try to come up with a new one yourself. If you think the title system is an ineffective way for reward and punishment then I challenge you to come up with a better system.
From my OP.

Posted by: squirrel dude
If you agree it's broken, and think it can be fixed, how can it be fixed?
I'll just go ahead and add to it to make it more clear (that one's actually on me, my prose can be pretty -blam!-e).

How can we fix or improve the system? Let's discuss how to make things better.

That's the good thing about B.net and BUNGiE, they listen to what we have to say and implement the changes accordingly.

Example: I was one of the lucky few to participate in the Reach Public Beta and back then the crouch toggling system was slow so you couldn't really teabag like you could back in Halo 1-3. You should have heard how many complaints BUNGiE got for changing that mechanic though they changed it in the first place because a lot of people were complaining about the teabagging. So when Reach came out, the crouching mechanic was sped up so you could stuff your avatar's genitals in your fallen foe's face(say that five times fast) at a quick pace before going back to cracking skulls.

Not everything is perfect and sometimes brilliance takes a crap ton of mistakes to get one thing right. When asked about the 10,000 failures at making the carbon filament for the modern lightbulb, Thomas Edison was quoted as saying "I haven't failed, I just found 10,000 ways not to invent the lightbulb." BUNGiE is the same way, you can say that the title system is a failure but I just view as a way that BUNGiE is trying various things to keep us as a community together and to have fun on their site.So saying that I think the title system has failed so far is bad because inventors need failures to learn from?

[quote]But as I have stated earlier, if you think you can do better than Achronos in implementing a system that rewards people for posting quality topics and posts, and punishes them for breaking the rules in a way you deem fit, then share it. Who knows maybe your idea might be good enough to be implemented by Achronos and the Web Team.
Yeah, I got nothin. I don't have a solution. That's why I was throwing that out to the community. But hey, you have to start a discussion somewhere.

  • 08.20.2012 1:30 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Elder Mythic Member
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Primum Agmen
A tosser is the same as a wanker. To toss oneself off is to fondle the trouser weasel.


Achronos

Joe Staten

Posted by: squirrel dude
Apologies if my history is slightly off or generalized, I'm doing this straight from memory. I'm talking about events that happened 5 years ago.

Why the title system was put in place
The title system was put in place after enough members asked for it, and the web-team was able to find time to design one. The title system was not put in place with unanimous support from membership however. The two sides' arguments can be boiled down to this:

1. Those who wanted it:
It will encourage better behavior among members, It will do this in two ways.
1. It will provide for members an incentive to be an active member that behaves within the rules of the forums.
2. Members with titles will be positive examples to newer members.
The community will move past the initial elitism, so those concerns shouldn't stop what would be a good improvement to the website.

2. Those who didn't:
It will garner elitism in the community. Members will use titles to show that their points are better, and new members will quote them simply because they have higher titles. It's the same reason we don't show when members joined next to their name anymore.

I was in the camp that supported having titles when the idea came out, or I was at least neutral towards them. I also felt that member join-dates should be shown. Eventually, the new system was put in place by Achronos and the webteam, and we've used it for almost 5 years now. Time flies when you're having fun.

Has the title system worked as intended?
If you read the title to the post, then you should know my answer: No, it hasn't worked. I do not believe that the title system has generated better community behavior, and I do think that elitism has emerged from the title system. The same threads about The Flood and [insert most recent Bungie-made game here] forums being filled with dumb posts and there not being enough moderators are posted just like the threads that came before them.

In addition to this, there is elitism that comes from titles. Almost immediately after the title system was implemented, a mythic members group was created, and a legendary members group was created. I wouldn't be surprised if a heroic members group existed. There's nothing wrong with groups being created, but they do show how almost immediately the title system had begun to divide members into (oh, this next word will get me in trouble) classes.

I honestly do not believe the elitism to be that strong of an issue, but I think it would be foolish to deny its existence. To say that members don't quote mythic members simply because they are mythic members would be like saying that members don't quote moderators and employees just because they are employees. So, we still have elitism, and most would say that The Flood and other forums haven't improved because of anything other than a decrease in activity. Whether or not you think that the title system works well in determining who gets what title, isn't it fair to say that the title system hasn't worked as advertised?

tl;dr: Titles have been around for well over 4 years now. Elitism has developed, but the same problems still exist and don't seem to be improving.


If you agree it's broken, and think it can be fixed, how can it be fixed? If you don't agree it's broken, as I'm sure most of you won't, please explain why.
What a load of bull-blam!-. I don't remember anyone ever asking for a title system.

  • 08.20.2012 1:35 PM PDT

Swag punks, fu­­ck off!

I think it's just fine the way it is.

  • 08.20.2012 1:38 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

Achronos just showed you how wrong you are and you're still arguing this?

  • 08.20.2012 1:38 PM PDT

<_QuAnTuM_>
What's your talent?
Posted by: DabilahroNinja
I can see through windows.

Posted by: WinyPit82
Like they always say, "You mess with the Helix Nebula, you get the WinyPit82."

Hi there! be sure to click that homepage link!

Lovely to know that I've no recollection of any elitism regard the titles on bungie.net. :)

Good job guys, don't flame.

  • 08.20.2012 1:41 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Veteran Legendary Member
  • gamertag: jyrine
  • user homepage:

I was the first Spartan. And I will be the last. Mythic on 9/1/2012 never forget
PAX 08, Third Team against Luke and Shishka, AR dual to
the Death, won by one point... Assembly hasn't changed.

urk: "This is a bad idea."
DeeJ: "Hold still..."

I always can't help but laugh when a member posts saying "This is the way this site works, and this is wrong."

Really? You know exactly how this site works? you've looked over the code? You designed (or help design) this site? Oh you didn't? Then with all due respect, shut up.

This guy did designed (or helped design) it...He knows whats going on. When he tells you how it is, its not a discussion, its a correction, thats when you find out you're wrong, and you move forward.
Posted by: Achronos
Despite being professionally insulted at the start of this thread, I should point out that basing your arguments on this kind of evidence will not work out in your favor.

(that's because the system runs on a schedule, and when you first come off a ban, the system hasn't rechecked your account to see what your new trust value is minus the penalty from the ban - it just so happened that your account was updated an hour after you got off a ban. Short bans tend to not have deep penalties).

Look, it is okay if you don't like the titles. But don't base your argument on systemic details you know nothing about. Keep your thoughts on things like how it affects the community to have the titles, don't worry about the implementation details that you don't have. That's a much more interesting conversation to read anyway.

Posted by: squirrel dude
Quick Evidence that the system isn't effective
- It took only an hour and just 4 posts after I got off a ban to get from member to fabled heroic member.


[Edited on 08.20.2012 1:45 PM PDT]

  • 08.20.2012 1:44 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

OP is jelly he's not a mythic anymore.

  • 08.20.2012 1:54 PM PDT

Tin shacks and catfish bones.

You're just a Heroic and you expect me to read that OP?

  • 08.20.2012 2:05 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!


Posted by: HipiO7
OP is jelly he's not a mythic anymore.


Nah, he forced his ban by breaking the rules.

  • 08.20.2012 2:06 PM PDT

<_QuAnTuM_>
What's your talent?
Posted by: DabilahroNinja
I can see through windows.

Posted by: WinyPit82
Like they always say, "You mess with the Helix Nebula, you get the WinyPit82."

Hi there! be sure to click that homepage link!


Posted by: I ColdEmbrace I
You're just a Heroic and you expect me to read that OP?
He made the 'history of the flood' thread on the forum, I think he knows what he's doing (despite the bias sent across Achronos' way.)

[Edited on 08.20.2012 2:07 PM PDT]

  • 08.20.2012 2:07 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Keir F
  • user homepage:

Why is it that whenever the word "title" is mentioned, the entire thread derails into a soup of argument?

If people are going to be childish about the fact they have a blue banner, or a cool word after their name then let them. Why should you care?

  • 08.20.2012 2:09 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!


Posted by: Kvaener
Why is it that whenever the word "title" is mentioned, the entire thread derails into a soup of argument?


Welcome to a no "elitist" community. Most of them proclaim not to be elitist, but behave as such.

[Edited on 08.20.2012 2:11 PM PDT]

  • 08.20.2012 2:10 PM PDT

Tin shacks and catfish bones.


Posted by: thenewxegk

Posted by: I ColdEmbrace I
You're just a Heroic and you expect me to read that OP?
He made the 'history of the flood' thread on the forum, I think he knows what he's doing (despite the bias sent across Achronos' way.)


Bad "elitist" joke was bad.

  • 08.20.2012 2:12 PM PDT

<_QuAnTuM_>
What's your talent?
Posted by: DabilahroNinja
I can see through windows.

Posted by: WinyPit82
Like they always say, "You mess with the Helix Nebula, you get the WinyPit82."

Hi there! be sure to click that homepage link!


Posted by: I ColdEmbrace I

Posted by: thenewxegk

Posted by: I ColdEmbrace I
You're just a Heroic and you expect me to read that OP?
He made the 'history of the flood' thread on the forum, I think he knows what he's doing (despite the bias sent across Achronos' way.)


Bad "elitist" joke was bad.
Don't worry, I got it, just said that just in case!

  • 08.20.2012 2:18 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: MasterSin
Achronos just showed you how wrong you are and you're still arguing this?
Yes. He actually didn't say I was wrong, so much as say that I should avoid discussing the numbers behind the title system because we don't have them. Unfortunately the entire situation is ultimately a circular argument.

- Me: ..... the system is flawed
- Person 2: You don't have the numbers, so you can't say that
- Me: We don't have the numbers because they've never been shown to us. Not my fault.
- Person 2: We aren't shown the numbers because then someone could break it
- Me: If we could break it, that means that the system is flawed
- Person 2: You don't have the numbers, so you can't say that

See the problem?

Posted by: jyrine
I always can't help but laugh when a member posts saying "This is the way this site works, and this is wrong."

Really? You know exactly how this site works? you've looked over the code? You designed (or help design) this site? Oh you didn't? Then with all due respect, shut up.
Nope. I don't know exactly how it works. I also don't know all the inner workings of a baseball team, but I can tell you that something is wrong with the Kansas City Royals organization.

The title system isn't that broken, but you get my point.

Posted by: HipiO7
OP is jelly he's not a mythic anymore.
I'm more jelly covered than in injured CoD character.

  • 08.20.2012 3:18 PM PDT