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  • Subject: Destiny Discussion: Keeping things in Perspective
Subject: Destiny Discussion: Keeping things in Perspective

WARNING: Wall of Text Approaching!
I am by no means a succinct writer, and if you aren't a particularly patient reader, you might want to just skim this thread or go look at a different topic.

WARNING: Speculation Ahead!
While this thread contains some truths, it has a healthy dose of speculation. While I try to have mildly solid reasoning to back up the brunt of my ideas, I may or may not have pulled some of it from my nether regions. Proceed with caution, decide for yourself what to believe in!

IntroductionAs you may know, back on May 21st, 2012, Activision publicly released the contract that they had formed with Bungie as part of a lawsuit that was going on between themselves and the original developers of Call of Duty. While the contract extensively detailed the way that Destiny would be developed, released, and distributed, in terms of actually describing what Destiny was from a gameplay standpoint, this was all it had to say:

"Product" or "Products" means the following that are developed during the Development Term (as such term is defined in Section 4.1 a series of interactive entertainment software products being developed by Licensor based on the Destiny Property, planned to be massively-multiplayer-style (i.e. client-based mission structures with persistent elements), sci-fantasy, action-shooter games
The first thing I noticed when I first read the contract was that it failed to specify if Destiny would be a First Person Shooter or a Third Person Shooter. The distinction between the two in terms of gameplay is astronomical, and while the choice is ultimately Bungie's decision, I feel that it would be an interesting topic to explore.

I should probably clarify that although some games like Skyrim or Battlefront give you the option to play from either the first or third person perspective, Destiny will either be a first person shooter or a third person shooter, but not both. What you need to understand is that despite the fact that Skyrim gives you an option to play from a third person perspective, you'll notice that the game still plays like a first person adventure game. And despite the fact that Battlefront gives you an option to play from a first person perspective, you'll notice that the game still plays like a third person shooter. These games might give you the illusion that they have both the advantages of the first and third person perspective, but at the end of the day, they are designed for and limited by a single predominant perspective. The option to swap between the two perspectives is a nice addition, but is ultimately vestigial.

With that out of the way, let's proceed to tonight's topic:

Will Destiny be a First Person Shooter, or will it be a Third Person Shooter?
On one hand I could totally imagine that Destiny would be a first person shooter. Bungie has been incredibly successful with that genre over the past ten years, and creating another FPS would allow them to reutilize older assets, not to mention that they would be able to take advantage of the wealth of knowledge that they've gained from creating Halo. A first person MMO shooter would definitely work, and it might be interesting to see Bungie's take on that genre.

But on the other hand, I could definitely see Bungie wanting to distance themselves somewhat from their earlier successes and set forth down a new path. If they wanted to sit around making first person shooters for the rest of their lives, they could have just stayed with Microsoft and continued to make Halo. From watching the 20th Anniversary Vidoc, I got the impression that they plan on going somewhere new and exciting with their next intellectual property, and sticking around in the same genre seems a tad too safe to me.

Not to mention, the videogame market has been flooded with first person shooters for a while now, and as time has gone on, we've seen less and less innovation between titles. I have faith in Bungie's abillities, but it just seems like it would be very difficult for them to create a first person shooter that is not only radically different from Halo, but different from every other first person shooter. I mean, it's easy to make the game look visually different, it's all a simple matter of changing the setting, the weapons, and the types of people you shoot at. But at it's core, a first person shooter plays like a first person shooter. Will simply increasing the player cap on a given match be enough to make Destiny distinguishable from Halo?

I feel that a far more radical change in gameplay is required to solidify the distinction between the two games, and what could be more radical than a change in perspective? In my mind the third person perspective has several distinct advantages over the first person perspective when it comes to gameplay, and together, will create a game that is far more interesting than the average first person shooter.

The first and most obvious advantage of the third person perspective is expanded vision. By placing the camera behind the player rather than inside of the player, you get a much larger view of the battlefield. As simple as that may sound, I have difficulty expressing just how profound of an effect that extra visual information has on what you can and can't do with the game.

For example, one of my biggest gripes with first person shooters is how they lack truly interesting environments to explore. Outdoor areas seem more like fields littered with an odd assortment of rocks and tree trunks, indoor areas are hallway after corner after open space... everything just feels flat and rather uninteresting. Perhaps it's simply because I played a ton of platforming adventure games in my childhood, but I've always loved vertically oriented areas filled with all sorts of interesting paths. I'd love to play a shooter that takes place in a half-built urban environment, a sea of floating sky islands, or towering jungle forests, full of all sorts of hidey-holes, vantage points, and ways to navigate throughout the area.

Unfortunately, platforming elements don't really work out well in the first person perspective; there are far too many elements that compete for your attention. On one hand, you're above a bottomless pit, and you want to be looking down at your feet to ensure that you make the jump to the next platform. On the other hand, there's an alien on the other side of the chasm who is taking advantage of your predicament to turn you into swiss cheese. If you take your reticle off the platforms to aim and fight, you fall to your death. If you keep your focus on the platforms, you cannot defend yourself. First Person Platforming doesn't blend with First Person Shooting because you are incapable of looking in two different directions at the same time. However, that problem doesn't exist in the third person perspective, where your expanded vision allows you to aim at your foe while keeping an eye on the platforms.

So as you can see, the first advantage of the third person perspective directly enables a second advantage: Mobillity. With the expanded vision to properly spot edges, platforms, and environmental hazards, a developer can give the player the increased mobillity that he needs to properly navigate a more complex and interesting environment. Furthermore, if you design your game so that the mobillity is easy to utilize but difficult to master, then you have added yet another element of skill to the gameplay. A strong player will be able to flow quickly through the most convoluted of maps, allowing them to outrun and outposition their less skilled opponents.

However, I imagine that some of you might be scratching your heads at this point. "What about third person shooters like Gears of War or Mass Effect, isn't there a chance that Destiny might be somewhat more like those games?" While it is true that more traditional third person shooters tend to be heavily cover-based, I sincerely doubt that it is a path down which Bungie will follow. Remember, Destiny is a "massively-multiplayer-style" shooter, and It doesn't seem like the overly entrenched gameplay of third person cover based shooters lends itself well to a high player cap.

Small arenas festooned with various small walls for cover is one thing, but when you have an entire valley that is a literal maze of trenches formed by shipping crates, it pushes the believabillity of your scenario somewhat. Not to mention, I believe that one of the elements from Halo that Bungie would be reluctant to part with would be the chaotic vehicular action, especially since they'll have the chance to multiply that action by a factor of ten with an increased player cap. I can't imagine heavily cover based gameplay working out well when you can just drive a vehicle up over the walls and nuke your cowering enemies from orbit. No, if Bungie does something with the third person perspective, I imagine that there will be minimal cover systems at best.

Continued on Post 2

[Edited on 08.23.2012 3:14 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 3:04 PM PDT

Some Problems with the Third Person PerspectiveNow, I don't want to give the impression that the third person perspective is all smiles and rainbows, it too has its fair share of disadvantages that the first person perspective lacks.

The first such disadvantage is ironically the third person perspective's main advantage: the third person perspective sometimes gives the player too much visual information. Imagine if you will that I'm playing a game of Slayer on The Pit, and I'm right around the corner from the entrance to the rocket hallway. Without physically sticking my head into the hallway (and presenting it as a target for prospective snipers), I have no way of visually confirming whether the rockets have respawned, or whether the enemy team is attempting to infiltrate our side of the map. However, if I picked up our turret (which allows me to view the game from the third person perspective), I would be able to easily keep my eye on the rockets while staying safely concealed behind the cover of the corner.

Using the turret for such purposes was hardly much of an exploit in Halo 3, but in a third person shooter you would be able to have such vision no matter what weapon you had equipped. I'm not entirely sure what it would do to the overall flow of the gameplay, but I am concerned that it would lead to an increase in camping. But is that neccessarily a bad thing? Could Bungie mitigate that somewhat with their map design? Or could they tailor their sandbox to discourage campers? These are all questions that are worth exploring.

If this really becomes a problem, I can imagine one potential solution. We want to provide the player with plenty of visual information in open areas, but restrict it when they are in enclosed areas right? All the game would have to do is calculate what the player would have a chance of seeing if they looked around their immediate area, and only display those things, making the rest blurry and indistinct. So back on the pit, I would be able to see the corner and the fusion coils to my left, but I wouldn't be able to see the interior of the hallway until I walked around the corner. This feature would be a bit like Fog of War, but for shooters. Well, I doubt that you would share vision with your allies, so it's less of a Fog of War and more of a Shroud of Sight, or a Veil of Vision. However, I imagine the coding involved in bringing this feature to life would be very complicated, and the effect itself might be far too distracting or busy to be implemented. I just thought it was a solution worth mentioning and thinking about.

But by far the most common criticism that has come up when discussing the third person perspective is Immersion. I've heard plenty of people say that they prefer the first person perspective simply because it does a better job of immersing the player in the world of the game. Their claim has some merit, the power of the verisimilitude with placing the camera where my eyes are located is not to be underestimated. However, I still find myself disagreeing with these people. I wouldn't say that the first person perspective is better at immersion than the third person perspective, instead, I would venture to say that it's just easier to immerse in the first person perspective.

I can only speak of my own personal preferences, but I've found that over the years that a game's action has been far bigger player in my immersion than where my eyes are located. Being close enough to spot the grime on your sword is nice, but ultimately means little if the experience of fighting with that sword feels less like I'm striking mortal blows and more like I'm slapping my opponent to death. In particular, the third person perspective has a few tools that help to aid the immersion that is brought about by knee-gripping action.

For example, I find that the feedback loop that is caused by having constant vision of your character's every actions is very powerful. When my character is knocked into the air by a particularly large hammer, his desperate flailing disheartens me and I become greatly concerned as to whether or not he'll land on solid ground or fly off an edge. If an attack that I dodged ends up completely decimating the stone column that was standing right behind me, then I feel pretty happy that I was able to react in time. Both these effects are hard to replicate from the first person perspective, and both of them do wonders for getting me invested in the game I'm playing.

In general I feel that the third person perspective provides an experience that is much more cinematic than the first person perspective. It especially seems like a rewarding perspective in this day and age where developers are giving players more and more control over how their characters look. I guess what I'm trying to say is that third person immersion that is as powerful or more powerful than first person immersion is definitely possible, and I have faith that Bungie has the abillity to suck their players into their world no matter what perspective they view it from. To me, perspectives should be chosen for what style of gameplay they produce rather than what style of immersion that they begat.

Still, there are some facts that definitely implicate that the game might be leaning towards the first person perspective. In particular, this interview with Hao Chen, Senior Graphics Engineer details some of the challenges that Bungie expects to tackle with their next engine. It's difficult to appreciate such fine details like stylized hair or persistent footprints from the third person perspective, and it might make more sense to set these sort of goals when you're developing a first person perspective game.

But on the other hand, Jason Jones, one of the co-founders of Bungie and the project lead of Halo CE, was initially deadset against the first person perspective during Halo's development, and only conceded when they couldn't get the third person perspective to work out. It's been over ten years since then, and Jason has had plenty of time since his development role with Halo 2 to play around with numerous ideas. Perhaps Destiny will return to Jason's earlier gameplay vision, only now with the technology to make it function as intended?

Will Destiny be a First Person Shooter, or will it be a Third Person Shooter? I have absolutely no idea, and that's exactly why I feel that this is such an interesting topic to explore.

Continued on Post 3

[Edited on 08.23.2012 3:15 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 3:09 PM PDT

ConclusionI suppose I should begin to close this topic by saying that my goal with this thread was never to predict exactly what Bungie has planned or to tell Bungie what they should do with their next game. I simply wanted to paint a possible portrait of the game that Destiny could become, and despite how interesting a third person platforming shooter would be, at the end of the day, Bungie makes games that they want to play, and only time will tell us exactly what vision they're interested in pursuing.

So why did I write the thread? As of late, I felt that the Septagon has become rather stagnant, which is no surprise as Bungie is dark, and the community at large is rather dormant. But in this time of darkness, the Community Forum is supposed to serve as a place to discuss Bungie's upcoming game, and although activity has picked up somewhat since I first started writing this thread months ago (I am very lazy and very bad at writing sometimes), I still feel that we can do a little better. In particular, I've just seen so many people who have been content with assuming that Destiny will be just another first person shooter when the game has the potential to be so much more... I'd love to see the conversation shift more from the known to the unknown in the future. This is just my contribution to the pile, hopefully we can ignite a bonfire of discussion with the fuel I've provided.

I should probably note that although we know that Bungie is attempting to do some groundbreaking stuff with their next game, reinventing the shooter isn't neccessarily the only way for them to turn the videogame world upside-down. For example, I strongly believe that a major element of Bungie's next game will be it's integration with Bungie.net. Bungie defined the way that gamers come together to play on Xbox Live with Halo 2, and other developers have been rather content to copy that formula without a ton of innovation. Seems like an area that is ripe for expansion and improvement, and there is a ton that could be done in that regard. But that seems like a topic that is best left to a future Destiny Discussion Thread.

I'd like to thank the Bnet Regulars group for inspiring me to write this thread and helping me to proofread it prior to posting. The promise I made to you guys all those months ago kept me returning to my computer and typing and retyping large portions of the thread until they flowed together just right. I'd also like to thank Tom T for tipping me off about the Jason Jones video, which did wonders for transitioning into the conclusion. Old Papa Rich also deserves some thanks for helping me reserve the posts that I needed to have a nice continuous chain of original posts. And as always, my eternal thanks goes out to those of you who have had the fortitude to read this far in the thread. I'm not much of a concise writer, and I extremely appreciate your patience.

While posting, remember to stay civil, be constructive, and point out every single error I've made. A large portion of this thread is my opinion, and the only way my viewpoint will evolve is if I hear your dissenting voices. Most importantly, have fun, the moments leading up to a new era are always the most exciting, and I can't wait to see what Destiny has in store for us.

~Hylebos

[Edited on 08.23.2012 3:15 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 3:13 PM PDT

@spawn031

"So much of what we do is ephemeral and quickly forgotten, even by ourselves, so it's gratifying to have something you have done linger in people's memories." John Williams

Excellent thread! If you haven't read it, READ IT! (I read it about 3 times through). We've been on redundant broken records of threads recently and I feel this is a start to breaking this (hopefully!).

Although that contract wasn't suppose to be shown the public, I think basing an entire thread off of one paragraph is a bit... crazy. But this is all the community has to work with at this point in time. Now, lets get started.

Posted by: Hylebos
On one hand I could totally imagine that Destiny would be a first person shooter. Bungie has been incredibly successful with that genre over the past ten years.

But on the other hand, I could definitely see Bungie wanting to distance themselves somewhat from their earlier successes and set forth down a new path. If they wanted to sit around making first person shooters for the rest of their lives, they could have just stayed with Microsoft and continued to make Halo.
I agree. I feel that Bungie is getting past the "Oh another first person shooter game? The crowded fans are getting used to "the usual" and aren't aware that there are many more possibilities to explore. From the ViDoc, as you mentioned, I feel that were are going to a completely new feel for Destiny.

I feel that the player is going to have more control over the entire universe, even more so than Halo. The player would be able to have their own missions and compete with their friends. But a simple change like 3rd person to 1st person is a huge critical point that many players (myself included) aren't used to seeing.

Not to mention, the videogame market has been flooded with first person shooters for a while now, and as time has gone on, we've seen less and less innovation between titles. Part of the reason for this is because they know the game can sell. From a competitive standpoint, it's much easier to aim at your target in a 1st person shooter than a 3rd person. I think if Bungie wants anything competitive with Destiny, they should keep this in mind.

I have faith in Bungie's abillities, but it just seems like it would be very difficult for them to create a first person shooter that is not only radically different from Halo, but different from every other first person shooter. I mean, it's easy to make the game look visually different, it's all a simple matter of changing the setting, the weapons, and the types of people you shoot at.And this is where they shine. They should be able to take a completely new role in gaming and make it astounding. Bungie has already proved this with Halo in the first place, changing the play style and mastering that, would be a complete game changer for them.

For example, one of my biggest gripes with first person shooters is how they lack truly interesting environments to explore. Outdoor areas seem more like fields littered with an odd assortment of rocks and tree trunks, indoor areas are hallway after corner after open space... everything just feels flat and rather uninteresting. Maybe it's just you. I always found the environments with Bungie's games (especially ODST) to be rather unique and mind boggling. From everything to their skyboxes, water streams, cloud environments - even dating back to Halo 3 on "The Ark" when you revisit the cutscene where you get the tanks. It's always amazing to see what they can do.

So as you can see, the first advantage of the third person perspective directly enables a second advantage: Mobility. My only point regarding this, is if the primary goal is focused on mobility, will the game lose it's "awe" effect? If we're talking about gameplay specific elements, I don't see it as much of an issue. However, other 3rd person games like WoW have mobility (watching my relatives play) EVEN in a competitive game, they are able to move around the map quickly an efficiently. My point was making the lackluster eye popping scenery around this area suffer, mainly because the focal points would be on mobility and user interface.

Bungie would be reluctant to part with would be the chaotic vehicular action, especially since they'll have the chance to multiply that action by a factor of ten with an increased player cap. I can't imagine heavily cover based gameplay working out well when you can just drive a vehicle up over the walls and nuke your cowering enemies from orbit. No, if Bungie does something with the third person perspective, I imagine that there will be minimal cover systems at bestIn Bungie's Halo games, I always hoped that we would see more than 16 players in a game, but we never got there. Hell, with Halo 4 I believe 343 Industries is following suit and not increasing it. Heavily covered base gameplay to me is just a bit, IMO, boring. You sit in your base the entire time and hope that someone makes a bad decision so you're able to capitalize on it and score a point.

As a whole, I feel that exploration may be a huge role to play in Destiny. I feel that Bungie (as they mentioned a couple times in ViDoc's, are trying to give the community a world to build in. I feel they are giving us the building blocks to make something extraordinary.

I feel that Bungie is doing something that no one else has done. Call me getting hyped but, once we get shown a bit of what we're actually dealing with, I think it's going to be mind-blowing. You also brought up a great point abou thte integration of bungie.net within the game. This isn't the first time that we have seen that, and I believe it would be amazing for Bungie to include something with their website in their game.

1. It would increase activity on here as a whole (as if we're not already going to be flooded with new guys)
2. It will give more players a reason to remain active here. (Not just grab and go like the nameplates)
3. Creating and having a successful private group on here would actually translate to in-game groups/factions? (just speculating here.
4. Players would be able to join new groups/factions and make more friends and interact with the community on a personal level.

Not to mention that I don't think any other game company has vastly implemented their website in their game somehow. I don't believe it would effect any major parts, such as the story line, but users would be able to maintain their relationships that they have made with others on forums and private groups in game as well. Who know, it might also serve as a base ground for hosting tournaments online, Bungie.net challenges, private group spotlights and much more!

The discussion of keeping their game as a 3rd person, would have significant advantages, but I feel it will take time for the community to adjust. I'd say 99% of active community members here as of right now, came here sometime in the Halo generation. So naturally we all enjoy something about FPS games. I think changing this up is a huge risk/reward, but who knows, Bungie always blows us away with what they're doing.

Can't wait to see what they have been working on.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 3:18 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 3:18 PM PDT

I like shorts. They're comfy and easy to wear.

Seeing another of your giant walls is incredible exciting.

Besides that, I don't really know what to say. As far as shooters go, I tend to prefer first-person, but Destiny doesn't necessarily have to be a shooter. It could be like Metroid Prime.

Which was first-person, but that's not really the point...

Posted by: spawn031

Wha... How quickly do you type?

Or have you read this before? Is there some sort of "Hylebos Wall Newsletter" with sneak-peaks and stuff?

[Edited on 08.23.2012 3:25 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 3:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hylebos
Some Problems with the Third Person PerspectiveWell, I doubt that you would share vision with your allies, so it's less of a Fog of War and more of a Shroud of Sight, or a Veil of Vision.


Fun word play. Perhaps an Obfuscation of Observation? A Haze of Hallways?

Strong valid points brought up for either side. I think a third person shooter is most likely just from gut feeling.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 4:25 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 3:29 PM PDT

Questions lead to learning, learning leads to kowledge, knowledge leads to understanding, understanding leads to peace.



"I would kill to get a killionaire... 10 times... digitally."

Your wall of text's never cease to amaze me.

  • 08.23.2012 3:32 PM PDT

What a hipster.

Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: spawn031

Wha... How quickly do you type?

Or have you read this before? Is there some sort of "Hylebos Wall Newsletter" with sneak-peaks and stuff?
That's one name for it. Lets just say the regulars around these parts know a thing or two.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 3:36 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 3:33 PM PDT

I like shorts. They're comfy and easy to wear.

Posted by: Commander GX
Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: spawn031

Wha... How quickly do you type?

Or have you read this before? Is there some sort of "Hylebos Wall Newsletter" with sneak-peaks and stuff?
That's one name for it. Lets just say the regulars around these parts know a thing or two.

You mean the Mythics?

  • 08.23.2012 3:48 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Good thread. I think that Destiny should be in second-person. In other words, you only see the angry contortions of your own face (thanks to Kinect, obviously) as you frustratedly mash buttons and move thumbsticks in an effort to make something else happen.

  • 08.23.2012 3:51 PM PDT

I always find that the third person perspective makes things feel really clunky in a shooter. Maybe that's just because I heavily favour shooters using first person, but it definitely feels like they play more fluidly in that perspective to me.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 4:11 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 4:07 PM PDT

Posted by: AngryBrute1
Oh yeah, since somebody does not believe what YOU believe; that makes us vapid...
I cannot grasp that what you call "Something happened to nothing, and that nothing became something, and it was smaller than than a period."

It will probably be mostly FPS with some third person in there, like Halo with the turrets or vehicles.

  • 08.23.2012 4:13 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

Exalted Unexplainable Member

What about... second person!? :D

MAIN BODY:I mostly prefer first person. But I wouldn't be discouraged if Destiny's third person. Yes, first person is common in shooters. But isn't third person just as common in MMO's?

Although third person does have some benefits to your vision (as you see a little behind yourself and around corners), the benefits are unnatural, and therefore set unnatural rules for combat, making the game a little more difficult to understand, less believable, changing the combat itself (and the level of experience players can reach, in my speculative opinion).

Not to mention that third person has flaws in it's perspective. In third person, your ability to see into the distance is worsened by how far behind your character the camera is. Don't forget about all the annoying occasions where the camera finds a little hole where it could completely blind you for a split second. And although you see around your character better, your character is constantly blocking a portion of the center of your screen. And if you push the camera further back (making the character take up less space), you make the player's vision even more unnatural, worsen his ability to see into the distance and give your camera more chances to find those blinding holes.

REPLY TO OP:By the way, third person does not give you a greater field of vision (FOV). FOV is measured in viewable degrees from the viewer. When you move into third person, the character is no longer the viewer.

And I can actually move and shoot quite fluidly in first person, even better than I could in third person, as I know where the center of my mass is in first person, but have to judge where between the character's feet the center is in third. Perhaps it's also because I'm used to judging how tall my character is, so third person doesn't help so much with that.

PS:I suck at writing. If you read this long, boring, and opinionated post, thank you for baring with my complete disorganization.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 7:29 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 4:47 PM PDT

You are now reading my signature, the following proceeds as the amazing group i am in and the best person in Bungie.net who i am not stalking at al... >.>

The Reach Asset

Xhavalor is amazing <3


Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: Commander GX
Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: spawn031

Wha... How quickly do you type?

Or have you read this before? Is there some sort of "Hylebos Wall Newsletter" with sneak-peaks and stuff?
That's one name for it. Lets just say the regulars around these parts know a thing or two.

You mean the Mythics?

Nope. I have been blessed with this thread aswell.

Honestly I didn't think I'd read it again as I'm normaly to lazy.

  • 08.23.2012 5:13 PM PDT


Posted by: killingfrenzy11

Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: Commander GX
Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: spawn031

Wha... How quickly do you type?

Or have you read this before? Is there some sort of "Hylebos Wall Newsletter" with sneak-peaks and stuff?
That's one name for it. Lets just say the regulars around these parts know a thing or two.

You mean the Mythics?

Nope. I have been blessed with this thread aswell.

Honestly I didn't think I'd read it again as I'm normaly to lazy.
Yea but I feel like it got longer, so I might skim through it again after my night class.

  • 08.23.2012 5:37 PM PDT

"If things start happening, don't worry, don't stew, just go right along and you'll start happening too."
Posted by: Recon Number 54
You have no idea how revolting I can be.


DeeJ's Challenge

I miss reading walls of text especially ones by Hylebos! I'm not even sure I remember how to read things so long as I'm sure I missed something on my two read throughs...

  • 08.23.2012 5:40 PM PDT

What if it's not as shooter-orientated as we think. Oni mixed quite a melee system in it's shooting. What if this new game is like that or like Star Wars Jedi Knight series where ranged weapons are added in to the main focused lightsaber combat? Idunno how to describe what I'm thinking exactly but sort of like Battlefront or Battlefield with a whole Red Dead/GTA multiplayer with RPG elements here and there in a sci-fi universe with a wide variety of ranged and melee weapons? I'm just imagining though. and some third-person games have rather responsive controls like Max Payne and Ghost Recon Future Soldier and we've already seen that Bungie can make environments in first-person that are big, pretty, and completely usable by gameplay, for example Halo CE or Ubisoft shown in the original Ghost Recon where the big "sandbox-like" environment allowed for tactical reconnaissance, giving the feel of large battles or needs for stealth, and giving freedom of movement for both players and wtev AI in the environment.
The OP looks more than thought-out though and makes me feel bad about my post. ]:

[Edited on 08.23.2012 5:43 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 5:42 PM PDT

Break down, every single one of you.

You make some excellent points, Hylebos.

I prefer FPS, myself, but as you said there are pros and cons to both. However, there is one main point I would like to argue. That of first-person mobility.
Posted by: Hylebos
Unfortunately, platforming elements don't really work out well in the first person perspective; there are far too many elements that compete for your attention. On one hand, you're above a bottomless pit, and you want to be looking down at your feet to ensure that you make the jump to the next platform. On the other hand, there's an alien on the other side of the chasm who is taking advantage of your predicament to turn you into swiss cheese. If you take your reticle off the platforms to aim and fight, you fall to your death. If you keep your focus on the platforms, you cannot defend yourself. First Person Platforming doesn't blend with First Person Shooting because you are incapable of looking in two different directions at the same time. However, that problem doesn't exist in the third person perspective, where your expanded vision allows you to aim at your foe while keeping an eye on the platforms.

So as you can see, the first advantage of the third person perspective directly enables a second advantage: Mobillity. With the expanded vision to properly spot edges, platforms, and environmental hazards, a developer can give the player the increased mobillity that he needs to properly navigate a more complex and interesting environment. Furthermore, if you design your game so that the mobillity is easy to utilize but difficult to master, then you have added yet another element of skill to the gameplay. A strong player will be able to flow quickly through the most convoluted of maps, allowing them to outrun and outposition their less skilled opponents.


Some games have pulled of first-person platformers quite well. The biggest example that comes to mind is Mirror's Edge. The entire game was a first-person platform game that focused on mobility and managed to pull it off spectacularly. If anything, being in the first-person gave you a greater feel and awareness of the environment. Granted, gun use by the protagonist was minimal, but still worked quite well. Adding extra mobility to an FPS could make players focus on maneuverable advantage than just pure firepower, causing any confrontation to be even more intense.

Also, you talked about adding skills within the game. Yes, having to master new skills can be difficult, but doesn't that just add to the enjoyment of the experience? Humans are wired to desire achievement or advancement. When we see that we are getting better at something, we tend to enjoy it.

What I am trying to say is that having a game in the first-person does not limit the mobility of the player. I believe that Bungie's new game will be in the first person and hope that they will include extended mobility in it than was given in the Halo series.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 6:09 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 6:08 PM PDT

Posted by: Enormous Corgi
Posted by: Unanimate Objec
There's no way Nate Hawbaker's favorite hero is Alan Stuart


ALAN IS A BEAUTIFUL MAN!


Posted by: Commander GX
Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: spawn031

Wha... How quickly do you type?

Or have you read this before? Is there some sort of "Hylebos Wall Newsletter" with sneak-peaks and stuff?
That's one name for it. Lets just say the regulars around these parts know a thing or two.



Regardless of you people and your antics, lets hope this thread creates a domino effect of conspiracy threads. It'd be nice to jumpstart the Community.

  • 08.23.2012 7:16 PM PDT

Old School Gamer and Proud Member of the Seventh Column

Holy crap. A lot to think about. . . .

I worry about a change from 1st person to 3rd person. Why? Because it is different from what I like. But perhaps I need to experience something different.

I completely agree that Destiny will be like nothing we have seen before. I believe it will include Bnet in a grand way that will bring many more users.

I expect it to be revolutionary. Perhaps expecting too much? Well Halo CE was revolutionary so I think Bungie is up to the task.

Great thread.

  • 08.23.2012 7:16 PM PDT

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Posted by: Izak609
I mostly prefer first person. But I wouldn't be discouraged if Destiny's third person.
You know, some time ago, I would have said the same thing. I think today, I would reverse that sentence. I still love first person games. I have since Doom and Dark Forces. But in the last year or two, the most engrossing, engaging, and fulfilling games have played have been third person. Games like Red Dead Redemption, both Batman Arkham Asylum and Arkham City, the Mass Effect series (the ending not withstanding), and the Gears of War series are all right at the top of my list.

Is it because of the visual perspective? I don't know. I just know how I felt playing those games. I was John Marston. I was Batman. I was Commander Sheppard. That's quite an investment. I love Halo. It's one of my favorite games of all time. But I don't think I ever had that intense of a feeling playing Halo like I did these other examples.

Posted by: many_feet
What if it's not as shooter-orientated as we think. Oni mixed quite a melee system in it's shooting.
I like this thought. I was running this through my mind earlier today. Arkham City has been my game of choice recently. Obviously melee covers the bulk of the combat. I started to wonder if this sort of thing would work in a multi-player environment.

  • 08.23.2012 7:19 PM PDT

Posted by: Enormous Corgi
Posted by: Unanimate Objec
There's no way Nate Hawbaker's favorite hero is Alan Stuart


ALAN IS A BEAUTIFUL MAN!

I feel like if the world / map is large (as it appears in SonicJohn's canvas), third-person kind of steals away the splendor of the scale and makes everything seem really far away. It helps me become more immersed when I play a massive world (like Skyrim) in first-person, not third.


But on the other hand, I thoroughly enjoyed patrolling the streets of Roma and Venice in Assassin's Creed, and in that series the cities were considerably large, albeit split apart by loading screens.

But if the rumors are true and it has MMO elements, making it first-person would set it apart from other MMOs, just like Dust 514. Regardless, I'm excited either way.


And like what Papa specified above me, adding in mixed combat system (Mirror's Edge anyone?) would really make it an original, stand-out game.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 7:27 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 7:22 PM PDT

He's right on top of us! I wonder if he is using the same wind we are using...

Ockeghem
Missa Prolationum

I could read this thread...

or I could just wait for Bungie to release info.

Ok, I'll comment

I like 3rd person better for campaign.
I like 1st person better for multiplayer.

But, I like campaign more than multiplayer.

[Edited on 08.23.2012 7:28 PM PDT]

  • 08.23.2012 7:26 PM PDT

Posted by: spawn031
Although that contract wasn't suppose to be shown the public, I think basing an entire thread off of one paragraph is a bit... crazy.
Well if you remember correctly, I started this thread about a month before the contract came out, so it's not quite based off the contract, though it made writing the introduction super easy.

Posted by: spawn031
For example, one of my biggest gripes with first person shooters is how they lack truly interesting environments to explore. Outdoor areas seem more like fields littered with an odd assortment of rocks and tree trunks, indoor areas are hallway after corner after open space... everything just feels flat and rather uninteresting. Maybe it's just you. I always found the environments with Bungie's games (especially ODST) to be rather unique and mind boggling. From everything to their skyboxes, water streams, cloud environments - even dating back to Halo 3 on "The Ark" when you revisit the cutscene where you get the tanks. It's always amazing to see what they can do.
We may be talking about two different things. I was talking about the environments from a functional standpoint, whereas you seem to be talking about the environments from an aesthetic standpoint. From the Hao Chen interview, it's very clear that Bungie plans to continue making amazing skyboxes and other visuals, I just feel that it would be a shame if they didn't take advantage of the new intellectual property to give us some truly crazy and elaborate settings to explore, you know, something a little more 3D. I don't particularly see environments like that taking away from the visuals at all.

Posted by: spawn031
So as you can see, the first advantage of the third person perspective directly enables a second advantage: Mobility. My only point regarding this, is if the primary goal is focused on mobility, will the game lose it's "awe" effect? If we're talking about gameplay specific elements, I don't see it as much of an issue. However, other 3rd person games like WoW have mobility (watching my relatives play) EVEN in a competitive game, they are able to move around the map quickly an efficiently. My point was making the lackluster eye popping scenery around this area suffer, mainly because the focal points would be on mobility and user interface.
Well, in a competitive match (which was the game mode I had in mind when I wrote that paragraph), you might not have time to stop and sniff the roses, but in a singleplayer mode I imagine that enhanced mobillity could add a ton to the feeling of exploration, because it allows you to go places that you wouldn't have been able to go to before if you were in a first person shooter. Even something as simple as being able to grab onto a ledge and pull yourself up might turn a barrier like the mountain in Winter Contingency into an entire new area to explore.

Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Besides that, I don't really know what to say. As far as shooters go, I tend to prefer first-person, but Destiny doesn't necessarily have to be a shooter. It could be like Metroid Prime.

Which was first-person, but that's not really the point...
Metroids Prime was a great game, I should really get around to playing it again at some point. I can't remember how well the multiplayer version of it worked out in Metroids Prime 2, but the singleplayer was a ton of fun and had all sorts of interestings places to explore.

Posted by: SonOfTheShire
Posted by: spawn031

Wha... How quickly do you type?

Or have you read this before? Is there some sort of "Hylebos Wall Newsletter" with sneak-peaks and stuff?
As I mentioned in my conclusion, I enlisted the help of the Bnet Regulars to proofread my thread prior to posting.

Posted by: ChadGarion25
Posted by: Hylebos
Some Problems with the Third Person PerspectiveWell, I doubt that you would share vision with your allies, so it's less of a Fog of War and more of a Shroud of Sight, or a Veil of Vision.


Fun word play. Perhaps an Obfuscation of Observation? A Haze of Hallways?
Oh you.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Good thread. I think that Destiny should be in second-person. In other words, you only see the angry contortions of your own face (thanks to Kinect, obviously) as you frustratedly mash buttons and move thumbsticks in an effort to make something else happen.
Huh, I would think a second person shooter would force you to control your character from the view of an allied player. This of course would leave your abillity to function at the mercy of the other guy, which would add a strong element of teamwork to the game.

"No Barry, look a bit to the right so I can have the vision to make this jump properly... NO YOUR OTHER RIGHT!"

Posted by: antony X1000
I always find that the third person perspective makes things feel really clunky in a shooter. Maybe that's just because I heavily favour shooters using first person, but it definitely feels like they play more fluidly in that perspective to me.
I know where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's neccessarily a fault of the third person perspective but rather that developer's implementation of it. Were there any specific games you had in mind that demonstrated this clunkyness?

Posted by: Izak609
Not to mention that third person has flaws in it's perspective. In third person, your ability to see into the distance is worsen the by how far behind your character the camera is. Don't forget about all the annoying occasions where the camera finds a little hole where it could completely blind you for a split second.
Wouldn't said holes be resolved with extensive playtesting?

nd although you see around your character better, your character is constantly blocking a portion of the center of your screen. And if you push the camera further back (making the character take up less space), you make the player's vision even more unnatural, worsen his ability to see into the distance and give your camera more chances to find those blinding holes.I suppose that could be somewhat of a concern, though I don't imagine that we have enough buttons to be able to easily zoom the camera in and out, that seems more like a feature that would be controlled by the game as you enter and exit interior areas, and thus shouldn't get too much out of hand.

REPLY TO OP:By the way, third person does not give you a greater field of vision (FOV). FOV is measured in viewable degrees from the viewer. When you move into third person, the character is no longer the viewer.Ah, but who exactly is the viewer? Is it the pixels that are drawn onto the television that we call the "character", or is it the human being that sits in front of that television?

Posted by: many_feet
What if it's not as shooter-orientated as we think. Oni mixed quite a melee system in it's shooting. What if this new game is like that or like Star Wars Jedi Knight series where ranged weapons are added in to the main focused lightsaber combat?
That's a possibillity.

Personally I feel that if they're going to put a huge emphasis on melee combat, the game would benefit more from the third person perspective rather than the first person perspective. The tricky part would be to properly balance the power level between melee and guns. I didn't play a ton of Jedi Knight series multiplayer, but if memory serves, it was pretty easy to block all the bullets with your lightsaber and kill people if they weren't using explosives or if they weren't ganging up on you. Making both guns and melee feel useful would be very important to the success of that sort of game.

Posted by: Puma Knight
Ah yes, I was waiting for Mirror's Edge to come up. From what I've seen from youtube (and I have not played the game), Mirror's Edge makes up for it's restrictive perspective by heavily color coding the environment. You'll notice that all the buildings are pretty sterile save for the colored ramps, pipes, at ziplines that the player uses to get around. Using color to quickly impart visual information is clever, but I'm afraid that it's rather restrictive to what sort of aesthetics you can use when creating the game.

I'll finish replying to the rest of your post later, I'll need to think about the latter parts a bit and I'm starting to run out of characters. It is worth thinking about I feel, and I'd love to be wrong, as a more multiplayer and shootier version of Mirror's Edge could be just what Bungie needs.

  • 08.23.2012 7:40 PM PDT

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  • 08.23.2012 7:51 PM PDT