- Hylebos
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- Fabled Mythic Member
Posted by: Puma Knight
You make some excellent points, Hylebos.
I prefer FPS, myself, but as you said there are pros and cons to both. However, there is one main point I would like to argue. That of first-person mobility.
Posted by: Hylebos
Unfortunately, platforming elements don't really work out well in the first person perspective; there are far too many elements that compete for your attention. On one hand, you're above a bottomless pit, and you want to be looking down at your feet to ensure that you make the jump to the next platform. On the other hand, there's an alien on the other side of the chasm who is taking advantage of your predicament to turn you into swiss cheese. If you take your reticle off the platforms to aim and fight, you fall to your death. If you keep your focus on the platforms, you cannot defend yourself. First Person Platforming doesn't blend with First Person Shooting because you are incapable of looking in two different directions at the same time. However, that problem doesn't exist in the third person perspective, where your expanded vision allows you to aim at your foe while keeping an eye on the platforms.
So as you can see, the first advantage of the third person perspective directly enables a second advantage: Mobillity. With the expanded vision to properly spot edges, platforms, and environmental hazards, a developer can give the player the increased mobillity that he needs to properly navigate a more complex and interesting environment. Furthermore, if you design your game so that the mobillity is easy to utilize but difficult to master, then you have added yet another element of skill to the gameplay. A strong player will be able to flow quickly through the most convoluted of maps, allowing them to outrun and outposition their less skilled opponents.
Some games have pulled of first-person platformers quite well. The biggest example that comes to mind is Mirror's Edge. The entire game was a first-person platform game that focused on mobility and managed to pull it off spectacularly. If anything, being in the first-person gave you a greater feel and awareness of the environment. Granted, gun use by the protagonist was minimal, but still worked quite well. Adding extra mobility to an FPS could make players focus on maneuverable advantage than just pure firepower, causing any confrontation to be even more intense.
Also, you talked about adding skills within the game. Yes, having to master new skills can be difficult, but doesn't that just add to the enjoyment of the experience? Humans are wired to desire achievement or advancement. When we see that we are getting better at something, we tend to enjoy it.
What I am trying to say is that having a game in the first-person does not limit the mobility of the player. I believe that Bungie's new game will be in the first person and hope that they will include extended mobility in it than was given in the Halo series.Alright, I watched a speed run of the first four levels of Mirror's Edge last night, and while there wasn't a ton of combat (for obvious reasons), I've got a good idea of how the platforming works. So, I wasn't too far off from my earlier analysis. It appears that not every environment is super sterile, and the red pipes and ramps and such is "runner vision" which kicks in as you get closer to the object.
It also seemed like most the action occured directly in front of the player. It didn't seem like there were situations where you were strafing and fighting while attempting to jump, which probably makes sense, as this game is a platformer first and a shooter second.
But I could possibly see mobillity working out in a first person shooter. Even something as simple as a double jump (that has to be used wisely to get the most out of your jump or to make certain jumps) and the abillity to grab onto ledges to pull yourself up would be amazing. I could imagine leaping out of a window, grabbing onto the window ledge of the next building, popping up to kill an enemy in the next room, and then vaulting over the ledge to continue inside.
I still think it would be a lot more awkward though. You said this earlier:Also, you talked about adding skills within the game. Yes, having to master new skills can be difficult, but doesn't that just add to the enjoyment of the experience? Humans are wired to desire achievement or advancement. When we see that we are getting better at something, we tend to enjoy it.Offering difficult skills to master does add a ton of enjoyment to the game, but if that skill is frustrating to learn, then the entire process isn't going to be enjoyable right?
From playing Halo, there were always some cool jumps on certain levels, but it took a long time to memorize the exact timing of the jump to pull it off. Sure, if I could look at my feet and find the right place to stand before jumping it would be a lot easier, but at that point I'm not able to fight back while preparing for the jump. And unlike in Mirror's Edge, I won't always be in a situation where I'm running directly towards my opponent while attempting a jump, and there won't always be a colorful ramp that is exactly measured out to be the right distance to jump from.
In the third person perspective however, I'd have just enough vision to either side to attempt those jumps while strafing, and have enough vision of the floor around my character to see where to stand when I'm about to jump without taking my reticle off my opponent. You'll notice I said that the mobillity should be "easy to learn, but difficult to master". The easy part comes from having extra visual information which makes things a lot more forgiving for beginning players who don't have the map muscle memorized.
We shall see. More mobillity would be an acceptable outcome in either the first or third person perspective, and I am interested in seeing the route that Bungie shall take. If you have any more examples of FPS's with expanded vision, then I would love to hear them so I can take a look at them.
Posted by: IRISH 249
I expect it to be revolutionary. Perhaps expecting too much? Well Halo CE was revolutionary so I think Bungie is up to the task.
Great thread. Only by holding Bungie to impossible standards will they begin to meet them :)
Posted by: Old Papa Rich
Is it because of the visual perspective? I don't know. I just know how I felt playing those games. I was John Marston. I was Batman. I was Commander Sheppard. That's quite an investment. I love Halo. It's one of my favorite games of all time. But I don't think I ever had that intense of a feeling playing Halo like I did these other examples.I know what you mean. In particular, playing Dark Souls cemented for me just how immersive the third person perspective is. You'll notice that all my examples of the "feed back loop" that occurs in the third person perspective are subtle references to the Ornstein and Smough boss fight, which was one of the most immersive experiences I've ever played in a videogame. It put me on the edge of my seat to play that fight, it was so beautifully done...
Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
However, if they went third person, had more of an open world dynamic, made the first WoW competitor since... WoW and did all of this on a console, the critics would have a hard time criticizing them. Sure, they could still make comments about the monotony of the continued Space Theme but all they could do was point out how Bungie is doing something they're clearly amazing at doing.Hmm... I'm not sure if WoW would exactly be competing with this game, as Destiny is a console MMO-Style Shooter and WoW is a PC MMORPG.
Heck, we don't even really know if there will be an expanded player cap. I mean, you would think that there would be one since they called it "MMO-Style", but they literally could have just been referring to the persistant elements and the client based mission structure... it worries me because I'd love to be able to play with more than 16 people at a time...
Posted by: SkilPhil
I think the weaknesses of first person gameplay often resemble our own weaknesses, I dont want to be able to see behind me because I can't in real life unless I physically turn around.
Eh, that's never bothered me too terribly. Afterall, while the first person perspective resembles our own weaknesses, it doesn't resemble our strengths either. While we can quickly snap our heads to a certain position and react to what's coming in the blink of an eye, there just aren't enough buttons on the controller to do that in a videogame (unless Bungie's next game is Kinect friendly).
It just seems like in a game where you play as a super soldier that doesn't resemble our own weaknesses as humans (you know, jumpping 10 feet into the air and getting back to full health in a few seconds after being shot with bullets), having expanded vision isn't too much of a stretch. Videogames exist because we can't do these sort of things in real life, right?
Working down the comments, I'll reply to more as I go along, and feel free to reply back!
[Edited on 08.24.2012 10:11 AM PDT]