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Subject: Bnet... We need to talk.

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...


First and foremost I want to be clear, that this thread is not designed to be accusatory, nor is it open season for other members to point fingers. The point of this thread is to encourage self-reflection, but even then I doubt my words will have a lasting effect on many of you. This is not a joke thread, there's no punch line, no dragons, only us discussing what has become of this place and what has become of the people within it.

Firstly, let us identify the meaning or purpose behind this site...

Bungie.net is a place where people from all backgrounds and all walks of life can gather and share in a common interest. We come here to engage and interact with one another, to discuss and learn from one another. We share in jokes and laughter, and sometimes we even suffer loss together.

This site is designed to be an online gathering place for us to enjoy. Key word, ENJOY. It can be perceived as a hobby or interest, and as with any hobby or interest we engage in, we do it because its fun, we do it because we enjoy it.

Though this hobby can sometimes prove troublesome, because it involves other people. People have opinions. And when you take such a wide variety of people from all different walks of life, you will no doubt have a wide spectrum of beliefs and opinions. So while you are to come to this place to find enjoyment, and to have interest in what goes on here, oddly enough the primary function function of this site is designed to have mass amounts of people interact. When this occurs with so many different people, members both new and old begin to clash. Anyone anywhere can find a person and for whatever reason make that person their enemy. Anyone can be found by someone seeking confrontation. Anyone can be targeted, and anyone can target.

These certain events and occurrences put a damper or even ruin what is otherwise supposed to be an enjoyable visit to an online Community that people should truly invest no emotion in.

I always say, never to take people on the Internet seriously. And you shouldn't. As well, you should never invest emotion in it as I just mentioned. There is no reason why you should care what people say or do here because it has no direct impact on your reality outside this place. But people still let things here get to them... Sometimes it gets to them and they leave the site while taking their emotionally charged state with them, others simply get emotional on here, while they're here, but are able to disconnect from their emotions and feelings here, because they've directly removed themselves from the equation. Which is great... Although both occurrences still have an issue, and that is when you return to this place that you are supposed to be enjoying, or using as one of your hobbies and interests, if you're finding yourself in conflict, it could potentially upset or ruin your outlook and feelings towards the purpose of this site.

Now, is this an issue for many? Well to be honest, I'm not too sure how wide spread confrontation is here since day to day I only see a fraction of the content being posted. Though it is obvious enough with my frequent visits here, that people are clashing horns, finding reasons out of nowhere to argue, or to belittle one another. I see long-standing grudges between members still standing, and people constantly taking shots at certain members... And I began to wonder, "why?"

I know this sounds cheesy as hell, but we as a Community should always stand united. We gather here under a single banner from our love for games and interest in Bungies future. I doubt if we all met in a room, we would pick childish fights or start messily little arguments out of anger or differentiating opinions. No, we'd probably shake hands and share stories... Which leads me to believe that this has nothing to do with people genuinely hating other people, or having a really strong invested vendetta against someone, since really and truly, how serious can the things we talk about and fight about be on a gaming forum? To honestly justify poor behavior and confrontation would be impossible here, but yet many of us still find reason to do so...

I think it would be safe to assume a large percentage of people here have at one time or another found reason to poke fun at, childishly argue with, belittle or be cruel to, viciously insult, spoken ill of in secret, tried to turn others against, or mocked some person here... For what?

Now I'm sure many of you recall a thread I made several weeks back entitled "I don't like you, I don't have to like you and your thread is stupid." Why did I make that particular thread that seemingly contradicts the theme of this thread? Call it a social experiment I suppose, as the message I was attempting to convey was part serious, part exaggeration, and in a Community where so many people clash horns, I wanted to see how many of you would admit to publicly announcing someone's ignorance and stupidity in what would be a semi-harsh manner, in the hopes that a bit of tough-love might make the person think twice next time... While nearly everyone in that thread thought doing so would be wrong, many of them were guilty of doing so before anyway, or they had done so afterwards. Essentially, it seems everyone was attempting to look like the sweet innocent angel... When really, majority of us aren't.

We find reason to fight, sometimes we believe someone is stupid and wish to boldly or harshly call them out on it. Sometimes we don't agree with someone so we attack them, and not their opinion. Other times people will disagree and take it personally, which causes those people to harbor ill feelings towards one another... But no one knows why.

So I tried thinking about it... I wondered if these attitudes were increasing recently, or had it always consistent? One idea was that the darkness could be driving people to create a form of stimulus in the shape of Internet-drama. They're bored, so people find confrontation to pass the time and entertain themselves.

Historically, poor attitudes and bad-blood between members has always existed. So while the darkness may play a roll in declining behavior in some, it doesn't answer the question. So is it boredom in life? Is it wanting to create drama to entertain their uninteresting lives but using the safety of anonymity to their advantage? Or is it because some people just want to feel better or superior to others, so the judge and identify problems with others to appear better than them?

The truth is, this problem isn't some epidemic we're in need of saving from... But lately I've paid closer attention to the many occurrences of poor or sour attitudes on here, and I started to wonder what drove some people to find reason to clash so harshly with others when we all pretty much come here for the same reason. Is there a fix to all this? Of course not. Though improvements can always be made... But why should you do anything differently? Well I'm not telling you to, but I for one have learned and continue to learn about this Community, what it means to me, and the purpose I wish for it to serve...

I come here to talk to friends, and to sometimes debate. I come here to learn, and laugh and share. Have I been rude and ignorant before? Of course I have. Will I again? Probably, since I am human... Though I do my best to avoid trying to seek out confrontation, I avoid trying to hurt, put down or make fun of other people. I don't try to make enemies, and I could care less if someone hated my guts... Why all of this? Well because in doing this, I hope to make people's interactions with me more enjoyable, and I don't end up filling the forums with childish and petty arguments and strife.

I see people clash and I know it's very much just a part of how we behave as humans, but I think people need to start stepping back and realizing how insignificant their qualms with other members here truly are...

Discuss, debate, disagree, do it all. But don't turn it into something personal. Don't turn it into some vendetta or grudge, and don't target someone because you don't like the way they might sign their posts, or how much they might contribute. We're all here for the same reason, and we should be enjoying it, not spending our time here finding reason to create conflict.

So I ask, after my extremely verbose rant, what do you think drives Members to fight with one another, or to pick on and hate one another when indifferences are so easy to ignore? And do you think it's simple to for one to practice a sort of corrected attitude of being more tolerable and respectful to people they may not be so fond of? If so, would this make the site an overall more enjoyable place?

  • 09.26.2012 5:33 PM PDT

And so the war of Gods and Demons shall begin. Tomorrow will end with your heart in my hand!

Love ya! =3

First!

Sorry... Couldn't resist.

  • 09.26.2012 5:35 PM PDT
  • gamertag: iBIind
  • user homepage:

Whoo.

What the hell is this -blam!-?

  • 09.26.2012 5:40 PM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...

It's called the Internet. And this is a website where people discuss stuff.
Posted by: MURDUR 587
What the hell is this -blam!-?

  • 09.26.2012 5:43 PM PDT

Posted by: Helveck
there's no dragons
WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO HELVECK?




...On topic:
Posted by: Helveck
So I ask, after my extremely verbose rant, what do you think drives Members to fight with one another, or to pick on and hate one another when indifferences are so easy to ignore?
We all come here because we like videogames, and we can get pretty passionate about it sometimes, so it's no suprise that sometimes fighting breaks out when ideologies clash. It's much easier to obliterate the person standing in your way rather than convert him to your side, especially when you cannot see his face.

And do you think it's simple to for one to practice a sort of corrected attitude of being more tolerable and respectful to people they may not be so fond of? If so, would this make the site an overall more enjoyable place?I think it's possible, I think it would make the site a more enjoyable place, but it isn't likely to happen for most people. All that can be done is to do your personal best to improve yourself each and every day, and hope that others follow in your stead.

  • 09.26.2012 5:43 PM PDT

Posted by: Helveck
So I ask, after my extremely verbose rant, what do you think drives Members to fight with one another, or to pick on and hate one another when indifferences are so easy to ignore? And do you think it's simple to for one to practice a sort of corrected attitude of being more tolerable and respectful to people they may not be so fond of? If so, would this make the site an overall more enjoyable place?
A lot of the time, people just want to 'one up' each other. I think some people see it as a competition or something.

I think people just like to be jerks, for the sake of being jerks. It's pathetic and I agree with you, Helveck. I think a lot of the sites social problems would be fixed if people just "Play nice, don't be a jerk".

  • 09.26.2012 5:46 PM PDT

"I'm uncomfortable."
-True Underdog
Young Grasshopper of The Year: ChorrizoTapatio 2012

A little bit of sausage, a little bit of hot sauce, a whole lot of awesome. Have a question? Ask me!
Chapter

Holy -blam!- that was one hell of a read...nice Helveck.

Helveck for B.net President 2012

  • 09.26.2012 5:46 PM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...

Hylebos, I agree with your reasons for clashing, but I think I would just assume people would start utilizing logic a bit more often. Just because someone's opinion or words differ and maybe even irritate you, shouldn't be cause for emotional reaction. Agree to respectfully disagree is all it takes. But I know to demand this from a large population in its entirety is insane.

The reason I posted this was because things have never changed in the way of drama and strife here. People complain and criticize other people, and we all have. But at the end of the day... What for? Why care? Come here for you, the things you like, and the friends you know... Not to sour your time spent trying to enjoy this place with pointless grudges and anger brought on by people you may not like or may not like you.

  • 09.26.2012 5:49 PM PDT
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  • Fabled Legendary Member

I would agree with you, but unfortunately there will always be people like that because that's just how some people are. Better to just not care than to waste your breath trying to convince them to be different.

  • 09.26.2012 6:09 PM PDT
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  • Honorable Heroic Member

Real account.

Join me as we make new friends from different communities!

If you assign every letter of the alphabet a number, a is 1, b is 2, etc., and you take all of the values of the word "MATH", and add them, you get 42. So math is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.

Isn't this out of the blue.

  • 09.26.2012 6:11 PM PDT

Posted by: Helveck
Hylebos, I agree with your reasons for clashing, but I think I would just assume people would start utilizing logic a bit more often. Just because someone's opinion or words differ and maybe even irritate you, shouldn't be cause for emotional reaction.
You've got to understand though, and I've been there before, sometimes these threads pop up over and over again and you go through the entire song and dance to try to convince people to see things your way, only for them to stubbornly cling to a handful of counterpoints, which can often be flawed or not entirely thought out. Thread after thread, day after day, you try again and they just ignore what you're saying. It can get pretty frustrating. Eventually, you just want to skip the pleasentries and get right to the insults.

For example, a topic I've gotten rather emotional about in the past was Halo Reach's Mute Ban. I would attempt to explain to people why the Mute Ban was rather unfair given that we players already had the tools to filter our own gaming experience, but people just wouldn't listen. Eventually I attempted to add barbs to my argument to get people's attention, saying things like "If you support the Mute Ban, you are either lazy, emotionally fragile, or self-righteous." True? Perhaps. Could I have said it differently? Definitely. But it was effective, and the insult drew people into my thread, but looking back I'm not sure it's really the result I wanted.

Using logic and reasoning to win an argument on the internet with people who aren't interested in using logic is a long process that takes a ton of patience, and people are rarely interested in investing themselves that much into this site. Heck, perhaps the idea of even winning an argument itself is rather flawed, but the feeling of superiority that you get when you take a stand and defend your position feels rather nice. It's not wrong to want to butt heads just a little bit and emerge victorious, is it?

...Hmmm.

[Edited on 09.26.2012 9:09 PM PDT]

  • 09.26.2012 6:16 PM PDT

*scrolls to end*
Posted by: Helveck
So I ask, after my extremely verbose rant, what do you think drives Members to fight with one another, or to pick on and hate one another when indifferences are so easy to ignore? And do you think it's simple to for one to practice a sort of corrected attitude of being more tolerable and respectful to people they may not be so fond of? If so, would this make the site an overall more enjoyable place?

Why do members fight with one another? Ask yourself why we have war? Why is there terrorism? Wouldn't being more agreeable and tolerant make the world a more enjoyable place? I suppose you could say that we "naturally" conflict and attack an opinion that differs from our own. Being more tolerable is less commonplace than attacking outright. Sure, war and terrorism are certainly far different than an internet forum, but it gets the point across.

This raises another question: How do we change it? The first matter to this is for the people conflicting to simply grow up. I'm not talking about age wise, I'm talking about being more mature. You could be thirty and arguing with a fourteen year old on this site for no good reason. That thirty year old needs to grow up. And so, too, does the fourteen year old.

How do we accomplish this? Simply put, we don't. We can always hope. We could create a group and invite all the people we see that are more tolerant and grown up into the group. We could encourage others to be like that so that they, too, could join the group. Other than that, I wish I could say for certain.

  • 09.26.2012 6:21 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

This response to my post here sticks pretty strongly in my mind. In a lapse of judgment I decided to post a sarcastic remark without any real knowledge of what was being discussed. As result I was immediately jumped upon.

When I eventually saw the post I felt more shamed than insulted. If someone says something uninformed, particularly in an egotistical way, I have no problem with them being called on it. People should be mindful of their comments.

Causing an emotional reaction isn't always out of place. Still, it is a fine line to flirt with and you always do so at your own risk.

And if this response is only vaguely relevant, I am sorry. But seriously some people in this forum could do with learning the value of brevity.

  • 09.26.2012 6:23 PM PDT

It's a double-edged sword. Gamers are a passionate bunch. That nova-hot enthusiasm enables them to build thriving communities that outlast the very games that sparked them alight. That same passion will provoke them to bouts of rage.

I agree that respect for one another is crucial to harmony. I agree that not taking one's self (or others) too seriously is a gold-plated survival tactic. I do not, however, suffer from any delusions that everyone on this website will get along.

We have forms of control in place to keep the hostilities to a dull roar. When they rise to a full roar, we react. I think the darkness has cultivated a sense of intimacy on this forum. The fair weather fans have wandered off, and left an iron core of old-schoolers to hold court with one another. That doesn't mean that our interactions will be perfect.

  • 09.26.2012 6:26 PM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...

I'm really enjoying reading this feedback, and thanks for paining through such a long read guys.

I find it almost peculiar, strange and amusing how we all easily identify the motives for certain behaviors, yet acknowledge its a futile battle to even hope the masses will alter their behavior. But this is what makes us human, our imperfections. But even an honest effort most of the time, to interact in a non-confrontational manner when you otherwise might have, would be one action that could go a long way in keeping this site an enjoyable place to come to.

  • 09.26.2012 6:31 PM PDT

@spawn031

"So much of what we do is ephemeral and quickly forgotten, even by ourselves, so it's gratifying to have something you have done linger in people's memories." John Williams

Posted by: Mass Craziness
We could create a group and invite all the people we see that are more tolerant and grown up into the group. We could encourage others to be like that so that they, too, could join the group.
Which is what most people do, myself included. You always hang around with the guys you know the longest and who you grew up with. So it's natural to alienate yourself into your own world. Cliques form, people adjust and get over it, rinse and repeat. The problem is that many of us having clashing opinions on this - take it to heart, so naturally it's tearing our core community apart, because we all care.

Posted by: Tom T
Causing an emotional reaction isn't always out of place.  Still, it is a fine line to flirt with and you always do so at your own risk.
You're pushing buttons so to speak. Since we have a small base of regular users now than we did before, people get to know each other. If there is one thing that this darkness has done to the community, it's allowed everyone to find out a little bit more about each other. Even individual posting styles and you can really tell if someone is kidding or not (maybe?). Ideally, you have to know when to back off to not push that emotional line. At the end of the day, you're on a website posting a bunch of gibberish to a bunch of strangers. (but we love this!)

Posted by: DeeJ
The fair weather fans have wandered off, and left an iron core of old-schoolers to hold court with one another.
Bloop. This hit the nail on the head. Right now in the most darkest time of bungie.net, most of what's left is that iron community. Old Schoolers that visit here daily because of the interactions they made when this place was the cats pajamas (I think it still is). However, if you have all the hardcore fans left in single room, we're probably more clashing in terms of our personality and how we all care so much about our own community. It's almost to be expected.

Posted by: Helveck
What do you think drives Members to fight with one another, or to pick on and hate one another when indifferences are so easy to ignore?
It's easy, we're all that's left. The hardcore fans are all here waiting patiently for Bungie's next big thing. In the meantime, we would love to continue discussions. So what's the next biggest thing for us? Each other. Opinions clash and people get personal with each other. But remember how this is a gaming website. We're here when a game hasn't been announced for days on end. There will be loose ends.

All we can do is force ourselves to not let this get the better of us. It's actually surprisingly easy to get past this phase. Just find something else to pass the time. It works!

  • 09.26.2012 6:46 PM PDT

@Helveck

Just an Average Joe...

Ok, while a lot of you have covered responses for people clashing in pairs with equal input, what about people who indirectly call attention to themselves and paint a target on themselves but actually do nothing except take shots day by from people who simply do not like them, for whatever reason.

Of course there are repercussions for being a blatant ass to someone, but why would that person target someone for no reason to begin with? For fun? Out of boredom? And do you think there may be ways to prevent it in the first place?

  • 09.26.2012 6:54 PM PDT
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  • Intrepid Member

Don't judge a book by its cover, unless it has bacon on the cover, then it is a good book.

-Me

DeeJ says those who remain are the Iron Core. For some reason that made me feel good, like I belong to some weird cult. A cult that can't agree on anything or what we follow.


  • 09.26.2012 6:55 PM PDT

Posted by: Commander GX
Bungie.Match.com: Our Johnson knows what the ladies like.


Posted by: T1d3
DeeJ says those who remain are the Iron Core. For some reason that made me feel good, like I belong to some weird cult. A cult that can't agree on anything or what we follow.




And I love it!

  • 09.26.2012 6:57 PM PDT

This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends;
Not with a bang but a whimper.

Posted by: DeeJ
I think the darkness has cultivated a sense of intimacy on this forum. The fair weather fans have wandered off, and left an iron core of old-schoolers to hold court with one another. That doesn't mean that our interactions will be perfect.
You, my dear sir, are a gentleman and a scholar and have earned my respect with your eloquence.

  • 09.26.2012 6:59 PM PDT

Checking out my profile I see?

Posted by: Helveck
Of course there are repercussions for being a blatant ass to someone, but why would that person target someone for no reason to begin with? For fun? Out of boredom? And do you think there may be ways to prevent it in the first place?

I imagine the same reason bullies pick on smaller kids, it makes them feel better about themselves to put down others.

  • 09.26.2012 7:00 PM PDT

Posted by: Helveck
Ok, while a lot of you have covered responses for people clashing in pairs with equal input, what about people who indirectly call attention to themselves and paint a target on themselves but actually do nothing except take shots day by from people who simply do not like them, for whatever reason.

Of course there are repercussions for being a blatant ass to someone, but why would that person target someone for no reason to begin with? For fun? Out of boredom? And do you think there may be ways to prevent it in the first place?

The way to avoid people targeting a specific person who, as you said, paints targets on themselves, would be for them to NOT paint targets on themselves. There is a reason people attacked spartain ken 15: he was outgoing and, to some, annoying. He made himself easy to attack.

Does this mean not be yourself? Certainly not. However, there is always a different way to say something, and you can stay under the radar.

Does being attacked because you were outgoing make it right for them to attack you? No. However, this problem is the much more difficult one to fix, and links back to people simply need to try harder to watch what they say and not act on the emotion that is felt.

No offense to ken, by the way. He was simply a recent example that I could think of that fit the situation.

Edit:
Posted by: sytheNsnipe
Posted by: Helveck
Of course there are repercussions for being a blatant ass to someone, but why would that person target someone for no reason to begin with? For fun? Out of boredom? And do you think there may be ways to prevent it in the first place?

I imagine the same reason bullies pick on smaller kids, it makes them feel better about themselves to put down others.

I neglected to bring this up, but I agree with this.

[Edited on 09.26.2012 7:03 PM PDT]

  • 09.26.2012 7:02 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
x0x x0x x00 0xx 0x0 x0x 0x0

I have seen you future

Posted by: T1d3
DeeJ says those who remain are the Iron Core. For some reason that made me feel good, like I belong to some weird cult. A cult that can't agree on anything or what we follow.

One of us. One of us.

Like other people here have said, the passion that keeps this community together is also the cause of a lot of friction. I think most people here do a pretty good job of treating each other with some element of respect.

  • 09.26.2012 7:02 PM PDT

Key

Because some people are idiots and I like to tell them that. If they're arrogantly stupid and refuse to admit that they're ignorant, I have even more incentive to assert their stupidity to them.

I'm going to be 100% honest with you; I like attention. Everyone does. Growing up as an only child, I suppose I liked and continue to like it more than others. Back in elementary (primary, whatever) school, we had this system called "penalties". They were kind of like demerits only nothing but Parent-Teacher Conferences ever came of them. To get a penalty, you had to be given a one verbal warning, and then another, and then you would be given one (unless you, y'know, bit somebody or something). I got 200something in 180 days of school in the first grade, mainly from talking out of turn because I knew an answer and I knew nobody else would because obviously I'm smarter than everybody else in the room.

If I have a way to show people that I'm better than somebody else because they're acting stupidly and clearly and obviously ignorant of something, as long as I don't perceive myself as coming off as a tremendously huge dick for doing so, I'm probably going to point it out in an antagonistic fashion. Likewise, if someone tries to do the same to me, I'm more than likely going to respond to show them how wrong they are and fix the inaccurate portrait they're words have just painted of me. Which brings me to my second reason.

I like to be liked. Everyone likes to be liked, but I grew up pretty socially awkward, outside social circles and so I liked and continue to be liked more than most, I suppose. I had a grand total of MAYBE 2 legitimate friends from 1st-5th grade. And that's not even close friends, just people who, if I were to make a list of people I could technically call friends, I would be allowed to put on that list without violating the integrity of it. It wasn't even until the 7th grade when I bit the bullet and became class clown for a year with my sarcastic quips and incredible whit to become liked from a "that kid's funny"-kind-of-way. My point? Because of all this I take almost any opportunity I can nowadays to be liked (even though I'm a a well-adjusted socially balanced teenager with friends and a girlfriend to boot). Along with that, I tend to jump on chances to invalidate someone saying something harmful to my reputation as if they were stacks of hundred dollar bills. I don't like to be seen badly because, I suppose, psychologically I think that if I so much as fall off balance a little bit in my inexorable climb on the mountain of likability, that I'll slip back down to the depths of dickery and outcasthood.

So yeah, I argue with and fight with people on here sometimes because I like attention and to be liked.

  • 09.26.2012 7:04 PM PDT

It only takes a simple question to change everything.

I'm still looking for the joke... and the dragons...

OT: I don't hold grudges. It's too much work, and I'm far too lazy.

  • 09.26.2012 7:16 PM PDT