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Subject: Was the creation of Spartan 2's, evil?

Lets Boogie

Was it wrong? Now before you say, "well the Spartans 2's were needed to save mankind from the covenant", let me just say that the Spartans originally mission was to fight the insurrectionists/rebels, not covenant.

So even if the Covenant never existed/never came in contact with Man, the Spartan's still would have been created.

But though these rebels were a threat to the UNSC, i still believe it was evil to capture kids from there parents, replace them with flash clones that later died, genetically experiment on kids (human experimentation, especially when you use it on people without their permission, is wrong). Brainwashing them, turning them into killing machines, removing a part of their humanity, is wrong as well.

Some might say that the end's justify the means, but that justification can be used to "justify" several horrors. What if in the future, the USA has even a larger terrorist threat then it does now? Does that make it ok to kidnap kids and experiment on them? No. Just because the experimentation has the potential to save lives, doesn't justify the actions themselves (Imperial Japan experiment on people, and though their findings/data on the incidents can potentially be used, perhaps for combating certain illness's/diseases, said actions still aren't right).

History has shown, that some men are willing to hurt/experiment on people to benefit their side in some way, that doesn't make these men good or just.

Also, in real life, if radical Islamic terrorists decided to capture kids from their home, train them, and then indoctrinate them with their terrorist ideology, so the kids would have no problem fighting and killing themselves to stop what they see as the "Western" threat. Does that make their actions good just because if can benefit their faction in some way? No

What do you think?

[Edited on 10.05.2012 1:39 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 1:35 PM PDT

Yes and no. On one hand, it can never hurt to have some supersoldiers lying around, but on the other hand, the Spartans were never depicted as being especially necessary with regards to the Insurgents. They didn't really deploy on any mission against them that couldn't be accomplished by a highly trained special forces squad. Their being supersoldiers obviously helped of course, but it was not necessary.

With that said, I do not think the kidnapping of children was necessary, even if it was entirely out of patriotism, which no scientific endeavor ever is. And it may easily be considered evil.

Good point about Islamic terrorists, too.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 3:00 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 2:59 PM PDT
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Hey, uh, if you like vs threads, then check out this little group right here, if you have the time. It's pretty fun, just hop right in.

Intentionally ruining a few hundred lives in exchange for gaining weapons that helped save the human race.

Yes, but it was a necessary evil.

  • 10.05.2012 3:01 PM PDT


Posted by: And Im Here Too
Intentionally ruining a few hundred lives in exchange for gaining weapons that helped save the human race.

Yes, but it was a necessary evil.


The Spartans were not intended to save the human race, they were designed to fight humans. So it's not even a necessary evil.

  • 10.05.2012 3:02 PM PDT
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Hey, uh, if you like vs threads, then check out this little group right here, if you have the time. It's pretty fun, just hop right in.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Intentionally ruining a few hundred lives in exchange for gaining weapons that helped save the human race.

Yes, but it was a necessary evil.


The Spartans were not intended to save the human race, they were designed to fight humans. So it's not even a necessary evil.


I never said they were specifically designed for that. And they did, indeed, help save the surviving colonies and Earth from the Covenant.

  • 10.05.2012 3:03 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: And Im Here Too
Intentionally ruining a few hundred lives in exchange for gaining weapons that helped save the human race.

Yes, but it was a necessary evil.


Maybe that's not necessarily true, perhaps in a AU haloverse. Instead of the UNSC trying to create super soldiers out of children. They do it with military adults, adults who have allowed/have given consent to be experiment upon.

Though maybe the UNSC would lose without the Spartan 2's, but we don't know that for fact. Many variables can come into play (for example, in an AU, what if somehow the Elities learned the truth, and a covenant civil war happened before the date it happened in canon haloverse).

[Edited on 10.05.2012 3:07 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 3:05 PM PDT


Posted by: And Im Here Too
Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Intentionally ruining a few hundred lives in exchange for gaining weapons that helped save the human race.

Yes, but it was a necessary evil.


The Spartans were not intended to save the human race, they were designed to fight humans. So it's not even a necessary evil.


I never said they were specifically designed for that. And they did, indeed, help save the surviving colonies and Earth from the Covenant.


Of course, in the end it was worth it once the Covenant gave a good excuse, but the creation itself was unjustified because it's intent was not the Covenant but rebels. Therefore, the Spartans are the product ofn "evil" decision with terrific outcomes.

  • 10.05.2012 3:07 PM PDT

Lets Boogie

I think the Spartans are an example of how evil can create good. That may seem contradictory but let me explain.

What if a man, a rapist, raped a woman. The woman decided to keep the baby, and though the babies existence was created because of an evil action, this young boy grows up to be a good man, and later, a hero, which does many great things. That is not to say that what the rapist did was good, just because eventually his actions led to a good man.

Just like the Spartans, they were created out of evil actions done upon them, though eventually they were able to fight for a more noble goal, to preserve the existence of mankind, which they eventually helped to achieve, which was good.

  • 10.05.2012 3:11 PM PDT

The UNSC was basically an imperialist force that wanted to put down any rebellion once and for all.

The creation of Spartans was meant to effectively stop the Insurrection and prevent any prolonged fighting. Much like how the atomic bomb was dropped in Japan. It effectively ended the war.

However this is only the Spartan II program. The Spartan III and IV programs were created to help keep our species alive, which I believe is a reasonable goal.

Only the Spartan IIs were seen (by the UNSC) as tools for gain.

However they became something so much more.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 3:23 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 3:22 PM PDT
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Yes... it's unpopular to think of such things, but the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.

I liken it to those people who say they'd rather let a thousand guilty men go free rather than punish the innocent man. Except you don't think about what those 1000 guilty men would do if they did go free.

You need to realize, there is no good or evil, just viewpoints.

  • 10.05.2012 3:30 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: Madness87


You need to realize, there is no good or evil, just viewpoints.


Evil does exist. A man can deny evil exists, but that doesn't mean evil just goes away.

Examples of evil:

Rapists, Serial Killers,Naazes (not talking about Naazes in name only, but the ones who believed in Nazzeism, an evil/racist ideology that allows horrible things), terrorists (those that intentionally target/murder innocent/non-combatant people to prove something), etc.

In halo, the Prophets were evil, manipulating the Covenant and causing a War to wipe out Mankind. Evil dude....evil.

But of course there is good as well. Good men exist, of course if you deny that there is no good, then there is truly not a single good person existing.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 6:08 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 6:07 PM PDT

The HELL you are! These are precious gifts to me and they are non-transferable! How dare you regift my challenge prize. You might as well hock a wedding ring for beer money. -DeeJ

Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.

  • 10.05.2012 6:28 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.


Evil does fight evil dude. Conflicts can happen which is not a Good vs Evil, but Evil vs Evil. Just because they were designed to fight a bunch of terrorists, doesn't mean that the actions of making the Spartan 2's have become good.

  • 10.05.2012 6:45 PM PDT
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Most definitely unethical; no way around that.

Also extremely illegal (judged from my understanding of UNSC policy). However, seeing as how the UNSC is a totalitarian regime, I totally see how a program like SPARTAN-II came about.

  • 10.05.2012 7:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.


Wrong. They were Originally created to destroy the enemies of the political entity known as the UNSC. That is, they were made to "put down" any who would separate themselves (nonviolently or otherwise) from the authority of the UNSC. And the UNSC didn't like that.

Keep in mind, also, that these sentiments were widespread amongst the Human worlds. The "Growing Insurrection Problem" that was talked about is evidence of just how popular these ideas were becoming. Obviously the UNSC felt threatened enough to instigate this program. And like any good totalitarian government, they covered the program up (well, tried to).

The SPARTAN-II program is a perfect example of a regime abusing power to further cement its power.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 7:29 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 7:24 PM PDT

Yes and no. On one hand it was terrible to do this to KIDS, but on the other, it was to win a war against some pretty bad people themselves.

Innsurrectionists nuked cities to show their defiance of the UNSC, killing Millions of innocent lives. In some ways the SPARTANs were a necessary evil.

  • 10.05.2012 7:27 PM PDT

The HELL you are! These are precious gifts to me and they are non-transferable! How dare you regift my challenge prize. You might as well hock a wedding ring for beer money. -DeeJ


Posted by: Mikal7

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.


Wrong. They were Originally created to destroy the enemies of the political entity known as the UNSC. That is, they were made to "put down" any who would separate themselves (nonviolently or otherwise) from the authority of the UNSC. And the UNSC didn't like that.

The SPARTAN-II program is a perfect example of a regime abusing power to further cement its power.
Well yes thay were created to fight the rebels. Which can also be seen as protecting the other humans from evil.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 8:03 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 7:27 PM PDT


Posted by: crispychicken49
Yes and no. On one hand it was terrible to do this to KIDS, but on the other, it was to win a war against some pretty bad people themselves.

Innsurrectionists nuked cities to show their defiance of the UNSC, killing Millions of innocent lives. In some ways the SPARTANs were a necessary evil.
The UNSC did it as well. The whole damn colony was lost, not just a city.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 7:29 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 7:29 PM PDT


Posted by: DarkestSeptagon

Posted by: Mikal7

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.


Wrong. They were Originally created to destroy the enemies of the political entity known as the UNSC. That is, they were made to "put down" any who would separate themselves (nonviolently or otherwise) from the authority of the UNSC. And the UNSC didn't like that.

The SPARTAN-II program is a perfect example of a regime abusing power to further cement its power.
Well yes thay were created to fight the revels. Which can also be seen as protecting the other humans from evil.
Nope, just an enemy of the UNSC.

The UNSC is clearly not the "good guy". Never has almost never been a clear good guy in any war.

  • 10.05.2012 7:30 PM PDT
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People, the point I'm trying to make is that the SPARTANs were NOT originally created to protect humanity.

They were created to protect the UNSC.

There is a HUGE difference.

  • 10.05.2012 7:33 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon

Posted by: Mikal7

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.


Wrong. They were Originally created to destroy the enemies of the political entity known as the UNSC. That is, they were made to "put down" any who would separate themselves (nonviolently or otherwise) from the authority of the UNSC. And the UNSC didn't like that.

The SPARTAN-II program is a perfect example of a regime abusing power to further cement its power.
Well yes thay were created to fight the revels. Which can also be seen as protecting the other humans from evil.
Nope, just an enemy of the UNSC.

The UNSC is clearly not the "good guy". Never has almost never been a clear good guy in any war.


Neither side is good, but I think the Innies were worse. The reason the nuking on Far Isle occurred was probably due to the means at which the Innies were doing things. I highly doubt they were "peacefully protesting". From the sounds of it, there were a large number of them, probably many were committing crimes like murder, -blam!-, robbery. UNSC couldn't control the rebellion so they nuked it. Not the best way to go about a problem but neither was the Innies ways either.

Later in the war Innies targeted civilians for Shock Value against the UNSC. They were very similar to the Taliban except much, much worse. Attacks resulted in Civilian deaths, innocent civillians. Including the nuking of civilians themselves. (I'm sure the incident on Mamore wasn't the only one of its kind). At this point SPARTAN's were needed. They couldn't afford anymore innocent people dying because a bunch of angry "colonists" decided to uprise. They weren't fighting for freedom, they were terrorists. The UNSC's responses were radical but needed to end a war that tore humanity apart more than ever.

  • 10.05.2012 7:52 PM PDT


Posted by: crispychicken49

Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon

Posted by: Mikal7

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.


Wrong. They were Originally created to destroy the enemies of the political entity known as the UNSC. That is, they were made to "put down" any who would separate themselves (nonviolently or otherwise) from the authority of the UNSC. And the UNSC didn't like that.

The SPARTAN-II program is a perfect example of a regime abusing power to further cement its power.
Well yes thay were created to fight the revels. Which can also be seen as protecting the other humans from evil.
Nope, just an enemy of the UNSC.

The UNSC is clearly not the "good guy". Never has almost never been a clear good guy in any war.


Neither side is good, but I think the Innies were worse. The reason the nuking on Far Isle occurred was probably due to the means at which the Innies were doing things. I highly doubt they were "peacefully protesting". From the sounds of it, there were a large number of them, probably many were committing crimes like murder, -blam!-, robbery. UNSC couldn't control the rebellion so they nuked it. Not the best way to go about a problem but neither was the Innies ways either.

Later in the war Innies targeted civilians for Shock Value against the UNSC. They were very similar to the Taliban except much, much worse. Attacks resulted in Civilian deaths, innocent civillians. Including the nuking of civilians themselves. (I'm sure the incident on Mamore wasn't the only one of its kind). At this point SPARTAN's were needed. They couldn't afford anymore innocent people dying because a bunch of angry "colonists" decided to uprise. They weren't fighting for freedom, they were terrorists. The UNSC's responses were radical but needed to end a war that tore humanity apart more than ever.
Colonies trying to seperate using violence? Where have I heard that before....

  • 10.05.2012 8:32 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: crispychicken49

Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon

Posted by: Mikal7

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Well yes and no. The idea of abducting children can be seen as evil. But they were created to protect humanity from evil.


Wrong. They were Originally created to destroy the enemies of the political entity known as the UNSC. That is, they were made to "put down" any who would separate themselves (nonviolently or otherwise) from the authority of the UNSC. And the UNSC didn't like that.

The SPARTAN-II program is a perfect example of a regime abusing power to further cement its power.
Well yes thay were created to fight the revels. Which can also be seen as protecting the other humans from evil.
Nope, just an enemy of the UNSC.

The UNSC is clearly not the "good guy". Never has almost never been a clear good guy in any war.


Neither side is good, but I think the Innies were worse. The reason the nuking on Far Isle occurred was probably due to the means at which the Innies were doing things. I highly doubt they were "peacefully protesting". From the sounds of it, there were a large number of them, probably many were committing crimes like murder, -blam!-, robbery. UNSC couldn't control the rebellion so they nuked it. Not the best way to go about a problem but neither was the Innies ways either.

Later in the war Innies targeted civilians for Shock Value against the UNSC. They were very similar to the Taliban except much, much worse. Attacks resulted in Civilian deaths, innocent civillians. Including the nuking of civilians themselves. (I'm sure the incident on Mamore wasn't the only one of its kind). At this point SPARTAN's were needed. They couldn't afford anymore innocent people dying because a bunch of angry "colonists" decided to uprise. They weren't fighting for freedom, they were terrorists. The UNSC's responses were radical but needed to end a war that tore humanity apart more than ever.


I know about the terrorists, that does NOT justify kidnapping kids and experimenting on them. And don't think the UNSC's hands were clean either before that incident. I have no problem with the UNSC fighting these terrorists, but that doesn't mean they should resort to evil to do so. Perhaps if they wanted super soldiers, they could have started out with willing adults. The UNSC has a military, if they NEED to capture kids and experiment on unwilling kids.... just to survive.....then it really shows how corrupt the UNSC truly is.

And were the Spartans even the key player in taking out the Insurrectionists during the conflicts before the Covenant War? I think that job was done mostly by the normal men and women of the UNSC.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 8:45 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 8:44 PM PDT


Posted by: haloplayer2kill
But though these rebels were a threat to the UNSC, i still believe it was evil to capture kids from there parents, replace them with flash clones that later died, genetically experiment on kids (human experimentation, especially when you use it on people without their permission, is wrong). Brainwashing them, turning them into killing machines, removing a part of their humanity, is wrong as well.


I feel the need to point out how this paragraph is wrong.

Capture kids, yes. by itself is evil
Replace with flash clones. Not nearly as evil since the children would NEVER be able to return to their families. Provides closure for the parents who don't have to sit there for years going "What happened to John?"
Genetically Experiment. False. They were augmented yes, but not Experimented on. When you say that, I see the scientists going "I wonder what would happen if I inject this drug into them..." WHICH NEVER -blam!- HAPPENED. Did ya miss the part where Halsey (the head doctor) explicitly was trying to get animals to do trial runs for the augmentations before even starting augmenting the kids?
Brainwashing. Never happened. You must have missed the point where Halsey explicitly shot down that as an option for getting their loyality.
Killing machines. Partly true, but also loyal and not crazy mass murders. The Spartans have great restraint and will not just go on a murder spree for the lulz.
Removing part of their humanity. And what part would that be?


Edit: Everybody just get it out of your brains the Spartans would be turned on peaceful protests. That's -blam!- false. The Spartans were imagined to STOP THE TERRORISTS. You know, the rebels who were blowing -blam!- up for the lulz.

edit2: Ya'll don't know the lore. They TRIED willing adult super soldiers. It backfired majorly. The Spartans were created because without them, humanity was heading toward a massive civil war that would result in the near destruction of the race (without the Covenant). The Spartans were made so they could kill the crazy terrorist leaders without having to have a sea of blood and nuclear waste.

Seriously, you may have missed the prediction that the Rebels wouldn't be happy just nuking. They predicted that the terrorist rebel groups would start turning FTL capable ships into WMD. Imagine the Halo Reach slipspace bomb going off in the center of the Reach shipyards. Or in the middle of a city. You want that? I suppose you do.

[Edited on 10.05.2012 9:11 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2012 9:04 PM PDT

No, not at all. The needs of humanity as a whole outweigh the needs of, in comparison, a handful of kids. The Insurrectionists weren't a threat to the UNSC, they were a threat to humanity as a whole! If things continued as they had been, billions upon billions would have been left dead and humanity would have entered another set of Dark Ages. The Spartan IIs are fully and completely justified in the face of them, up until the Covenant arrived the

Insurrectionists were the greatest threat to ever face the whole of humanity and just as bad as the Covenant ever were, these weren't a noble cause or anything at all, the groups violently trying to gain independence were trying to establish communist, theocratic, fascist, or otherwise oppressive and totalitarian regimes in place of the one they had under the UNSC/UEG which is some form of representative government though we don't know most of the specifics...we know enough to know that it's very similar to most of the democratic and for the most part benevolent governments we have around today. And before the Innies turned violent, the UEG was trying to reach some acceptable compromise for all parties involved, and then the groups that became the Insurrectionists turned violent through a combination of not getting exactly what they wanted and/or not getting something that'd satisfy them fast enough. The UNSC isn't acting out of some corrupt pervert imperialism with the rebels as it's clearly been shown that they did try to reach a conclusion that would satisfy the dissident groups, the UNSC is acting in an effort to protect its citizens from a threat that is indiscriminately attacking and slaughtering them. The Insurrectionists are ultimately no better than the Covenant when it was on its massive genocidal campaign. The Spartans weren't made to break down the doors and cart off every random Joe Schmoe dissatisfied with the UNSC, their purpose was battling an armed terrorist force slaughtering millions...just because they aren't getting exactly what they want when they want.

Where the fething hell are you bosh'tets getting the absurd notion that the UNSC/UEG is some sort of fascist, totalitarian dictatorship straight out of Hitler's Germany, Soviet Russia, Communist China, North Korea, or Benito Mussolini's Italy? Because that is just not the case, the UNSC is not any kind of oppressive government or anything like that at all the assumption that they are is not supported by canon anywhere in the whole story. People aren't being carted off in the middle of the night for speaking out against the government or shot in the streets over peaceful protests. The only people being targeted by the UNSC are the armed terrorists blowing up ships, buildings, staging violent riots, and setting off nukes. The only "good" Innie groups were only targeting military ships, but even they weren't that great because they'd slaughter the whole crew and anyone onboard. The Insurrectionists had absolutely no reason at all to rebel but wanting a different form of government (fascism, communism, theocracy, dictatorship, etc.) and behaving like spoiled and petulant little children when they didn't get their way. In fact, they didn't even have any right to rebel at all, seeing as the colonies were all set up with UEG/UNSC funds and resources in the first place, unlike the British colonies in the Americas being set up by private individuals and companies as opposed to the actual government.

And no, you are just flat-out wrong, there wasn't any experimentation done on humans at all. They knew what would be happening with the augmentations or what could possibly be happening (thus it can't be experimentation as that is not knowing the result of something and trying to find out what those will be), the experiment to find out if what they thought the chemicals would make as an augment actually worked and so on was done on chimpanzees. What makes you say that the Spartans aren't human or have part of their humanity removed...because they certainly don't, they're just as human as any random person you meet on the street. They're more restrained and in much better control over their emotions than anyone else could ever be, but they have them just as much as we do. And I think you have Imperial Japan confused with the -blam!-s and -blam!- Germany (Dr. Mengele and all that)...in any case, there were never any experiments done on the Spartan IIs, who did let the UNSC doctors administer the augments 14/15 is old enough to let someone do that, imo, most people are fully capable of making significant and important rational decisions and so on much earlier than the law actually declaring them independent and an adult, whether the law sees it that way or not, kids like the Spartan IIs who were absolute geniuses and mature mentally well above their actual age are fully capable of granting consent for something major like the augmentations. And the Spartans have never been treated like property either, they're agents and personnel of the UNSC just like any ONI spook or everyday UNSC marine. They're not slaves, they're not owned, or indoctrinated...take Jorge for instance, honestly, would an indoctrinated soldier who only thinks what the government tells him to consider the root goal of the Insurrectionists, attempting to gain more power on the local level, a good thing and worth striving for? And this is a Spartan II, someone trained completely to fight the Insurrection, yet here he is supporting and agreeing with trying to improve things for themselves....Jorge knows what they truly are though, even if he thinks it a nice idea and all them trying to improve things, he considers them monsters because of the Insurrection freely and most often targeting civilians over anything else.

  • 10.05.2012 9:34 PM PDT

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