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Subject: Was the creation of Spartan 2's, evil?

Lets Boogie


Posted by: OrderedComa
And I think you have Imperial Japan confused with the -blam!-s and -blam!- Germany (Dr. Mengele and all that)...


Learn your history buddy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

  • 10.05.2012 9:53 PM PDT

心の中に弱い風が吹いています。

Evil? No. Necessary? Yes. Did it push the boundaries of morals and ethics even in war time? Absolutely.

  • 10.06.2012 4:17 AM PDT
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"Usually, the good Lord works in mysterious ways. But not today! This here is 66 tons of straight-up, H.E-spewing dee-vine intervention! If God is love, then you can call me Cupid!"

-Sgt. Johnson, Halo 2

Yes.

Kidnapping children and forcing them to be super soldiers is evil.

  • 10.06.2012 5:52 AM PDT


Posted by: AJF1177
Yes.

Kidnapping children and forcing them to be super soldiers is evil.


I honestly hope that by saying that, you include the S3's as well.

I've seen too many people hate on the S2 project for it's details, and be fine with the S3 project.

  • 10.06.2012 6:26 AM PDT


Posted by: Bryanesie
Evil? No. Necessary? Yes.


I don't even see how it was necessary. The missions they were sent on against the Insurrection did not require superhumans, just highly trained and intelligent black ops members. Maybe in theory having supersoldiers around was good idea, but they sure as hell weren't depicted as being necessary. A Spartan II won't stop a nuke any better than any other human. They won't assassinate a Rebel leader any better than a normal human could. They won't gather intel any better either. It did give them some advantages in areas like CQC and movement, but what black ops agent couldn't take on a random Innie in CQC?

  • 10.06.2012 7:35 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

They were the result of an immoral experiment conducted for moral reasons. The Insurrection was stated by multiple people to be a massive threat and Halsey herself said that unless drastic measures were taken the entire situation would go FUBAR extremely quickly. Remember, these are not a few dissatisfied citizens: these people have access to WMDs such as nuclear bombs and have shown a will to use them. They have attacked innocent targets such as a civilian diner, a cruise ship, and even an entire city. The death toll was already in the millions. Without the Spartans it is unlikely that humanity would have been in any state to fight the Covenant.

  • 10.06.2012 11:09 AM PDT

心の中に弱い風が吹いています。


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Bryanesie
Evil? No. Necessary? Yes.


I don't even see how it was necessary. The missions they were sent on against the Insurrection did not require superhumans, just highly trained and intelligent black ops members. Maybe in theory having supersoldiers around was good idea, but they sure as hell weren't depicted as being necessary. A Spartan II won't stop a nuke any better than any other human. They won't assassinate a Rebel leader any better than a normal human could. They won't gather intel any better either. It did give them some advantages in areas like CQC and movement, but what black ops agent couldn't take on a random Innie in CQC?
I don't see how having a supersoldier wouldn't be beneficial in these aspects. You can't sit there and say that increased reflexes, intelligence, and strength won't come in handy for any of the things you mentioned above. The missions that have been described thus far are few to begin with, so we don't really know how much damage the Spartans did against the Innies.

You could even use the example of Noble Six; where they say he's made whole militia groups disappear. Anyone could see the appeal of having a soldier who you simply point in a direction and he takes everything out in the process. And I think you overestimate what a normal human can do in these situations. ODSTs are tough, but note that the UNSC isn't taking chances when they have fire-and-forget methodology of using Spartans.

  • 10.06.2012 11:29 AM PDT

Glory and fame, blood is our name!
Souls full of thunder, hearts of steel!
Killers of men, a warrior's friend!
Sworn to avenge our fallen brothers!
Sons of the gods, today we shall die.
Open Valhalla's door!
Let the battle begin, with swords in the wind! Hail Gods of War!

I know you said "barring Covenant intervention", but it still kinda made the debate moot. Nobody in their right mind would question the project, or it's ethics, after it single-handedly won humanity the war.

A fractured humanity is no good for expansion. The UNSC needed a quick and decisive way to quell any rebellion. If 150 children have to give up their future to save countless potential lives, then I'd say it was worth it.

And weren't the Spartans all colony kids? What future did they really have to begin with? The Spartan-II program let them live to their full potential, and they likely did more as Spartans than they ever would have as civvies.

  • 10.06.2012 3:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Bryanesie

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Bryanesie
Evil? No. Necessary? Yes.


I don't even see how it was necessary. The missions they were sent on against the Insurrection did not require superhumans, just highly trained and intelligent black ops members. Maybe in theory having supersoldiers around was good idea, but they sure as hell weren't depicted as being necessary. A Spartan II won't stop a nuke any better than any other human. They won't assassinate a Rebel leader any better than a normal human could. They won't gather intel any better either. It did give them some advantages in areas like CQC and movement, but what black ops agent couldn't take on a random Innie in CQC?
I don't see how having a supersoldier wouldn't be beneficial in these aspects. You can't sit there and say that increased reflexes, intelligence, and strength won't come in handy for any of the things you mentioned above. The missions that have been described thus far are few to begin with, so we don't really know how much damage the Spartans did against the Innies.

You could even use the example of Noble Six; where they say he's made whole militia groups disappear. Anyone could see the appeal of having a soldier who you simply point in a direction and he takes everything out in the process. And I think you overestimate what a normal human can do in these situations. ODSTs are tough, but note that the UNSC isn't taking chances when they have fire-and-forget methodology of using Spartans.


The mission against Robert Watts, their first ever assignment, and arguably one of the most major missions against the Insurrection, did not exploit any of their superhuman traits except for maybe intelligence, which can still be achieved by natural born humans. There is also the part where John deflected a bullet off his ribs, which either way is a perfectly survivable wound in the twenty-sixth century. Things like their reaction time, strength and speed? All a help, no doubt.

Their superhuman traits could help them in any given situation, even non-military, but you don't need to be a Spartan to be a pro-athlete for example. Regular humans could still get the job done, and I'm not even necessarily talking about ODSTs. I'm talking black ops, do-not-exist types of agents, like the Spartans, but still human.

  • 10.06.2012 4:26 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: GhostLink2401
I know you said "barring Covenant intervention", but it still kinda made the debate moot. Nobody in their right mind would question the project, or it's ethics, after it single-handedly won humanity the war.

A fractured humanity is no good for expansion. The UNSC needed a quick and decisive way to quell any rebellion. If 150 children have to give up their future to save countless potential lives, then I'd say it was worth it.

And weren't the Spartans all colony kids? What future did they really have to begin with? The Spartan-II program let them live to their full potential, and they likely did more as Spartans than they ever would have as civvies.


Two things to say.

1. Really? Main reason why Mankind won the war? An legitimate argument could be made, that if the Civil War never happened within the Covenant, Mankind, even with Spartans, would have been defeated.

2. We have no evidence that the children were not going to have a great future if they weren't kidnapped, and even if that was the case, that is still no justification for kidnapping them from loving parents. That's like saying its ok for the USA to kidnap kids from 3rd world countries who have parents who love them, just because they think they would have a better life in a 1st world country like the USA.

  • 10.06.2012 4:47 PM PDT

Glory and fame, blood is our name!
Souls full of thunder, hearts of steel!
Killers of men, a warrior's friend!
Sworn to avenge our fallen brothers!
Sons of the gods, today we shall die.
Open Valhalla's door!
Let the battle begin, with swords in the wind! Hail Gods of War!


Posted by: haloplayer2kill

Posted by: GhostLink2401
I know you said "barring Covenant intervention", but it still kinda made the debate moot. Nobody in their right mind would question the project, or it's ethics, after it single-handedly won humanity the war.

A fractured humanity is no good for expansion. The UNSC needed a quick and decisive way to quell any rebellion. If 150 children have to give up their future to save countless potential lives, then I'd say it was worth it.

And weren't the Spartans all colony kids? What future did they really have to begin with? The Spartan-II program let them live to their full potential, and they likely did more as Spartans than they ever would have as civvies.


Two things to say.

1. Really? Main reason why Mankind won the war? An legitimate argument could be made, that if the Civil War never happened within the Covenant, Mankind, even with Spartans, would have been defeated.

2. We have no evidence that the children were not going to have a great future if they weren't kidnapped, and even if that was the case, that is still no justification for kidnapping them from loving parents. That's like saying its ok for the USA to kidnap kids from 3rd world countries who have parents who love them, just because they think they would have a better life in a 1st world country like the USA.


I dunno if it's elaborated upon in the books, but wasn't it Chief's destruction of Installation 04 that kickstarted the Civil War? Thel fails to protect the ring, and that gets the ball rolling for the Elite's secession from the Covenant. No Spartan project, no destroyed ring.

I doubt anyone else could fight through the Library, get the Index, steal it back from Spark, destroy the phase pulse generators, fight through a Flood infested ship to get Keyes' neural hub, and then fight through the Autumn to destroy the ring.

I seriously doubt the best trained ODST squad could do all that.

  • 10.06.2012 5:24 PM PDT

心の中に弱い風が吹いています。


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Bryanesie

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Bryanesie
Evil? No. Necessary? Yes.


I don't even see how it was necessary. The missions they were sent on against the Insurrection did not require superhumans, just highly trained and intelligent black ops members. Maybe in theory having supersoldiers around was good idea, but they sure as hell weren't depicted as being necessary. A Spartan II won't stop a nuke any better than any other human. They won't assassinate a Rebel leader any better than a normal human could. They won't gather intel any better either. It did give them some advantages in areas like CQC and movement, but what black ops agent couldn't take on a random Innie in CQC?
I don't see how having a supersoldier wouldn't be beneficial in these aspects. You can't sit there and say that increased reflexes, intelligence, and strength won't come in handy for any of the things you mentioned above. The missions that have been described thus far are few to begin with, so we don't really know how much damage the Spartans did against the Innies.

You could even use the example of Noble Six; where they say he's made whole militia groups disappear. Anyone could see the appeal of having a soldier who you simply point in a direction and he takes everything out in the process. And I think you overestimate what a normal human can do in these situations. ODSTs are tough, but note that the UNSC isn't taking chances when they have fire-and-forget methodology of using Spartans.


The mission against Robert Watts, their first ever assignment, and arguably one of the most major missions against the Insurrection, did not exploit any of their superhuman traits except for maybe intelligence, which can still be achieved by natural born humans. There is also the part where John deflected a bullet off his ribs, which either way is a perfectly survivable wound in the twenty-sixth century. Things like their reaction time, strength and speed? All a help, no doubt.

Their superhuman traits could help them in any given situation, even non-military, but you don't need to be a Spartan to be a pro-athlete for example. Regular humans could still get the job done, and I'm not even necessarily talking about ODSTs. I'm talking black ops, do-not-exist types of agents, like the Spartans, but still human.
You just said John deflected a bullet off his ribs. That's a perfectly survivable wound for a regular human being in the 26th century? Seriously? In all likely hood even with biofoam the soldier would still be suffering from at least a broken rib, if not a punctured lung, or other injuries to vital organs in that area. Something like that would greatly hinder the soldier's ability to complete the mission. The chances of a liability are thus higher and the chances of success are thus diminished.

If you're arguing based off conjecture here then the argument still stands that the UNSC is going to use the best personnel available to them at the time of the mission, especially one in which it would deal a critical blow to the Innies. So that's the Spartans. Like I said before fire-and-forget methodology; they'll get the job done. There's a lot more insurance using a highly advanced super soldier over a regular, even highly trained agent or soldier. Spartans are still the best personnel for the job.

And you mention black ops agents, but you don't specify them. Who exactly? What organization or unit besides the Spartans are available? And you ruled out the ODSTs. The only others I can think of are ONI spooks, but they don't do the dirty field work like grunts do. Spartan III Headhunter teams would be next, but they're Spartans, so point still stands.

  • 10.06.2012 5:48 PM PDT

Agreed

From the UNSC's point of veiw, it was necessary to create the Spartans. They would finish off the innies and put the idea that if anyone were to start another human civil war they would have to deal with these super-humans.

  • 10.06.2012 6:18 PM PDT
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'To create an apple pie from scratch first you must create the universe'.

Sacrificing a few hundred children for the further advancement of our race along with the possible means to save us from threats not evil, then again they are stealing children and ruining a select few's lives so yes also evil. Maybe the costs balance themselves out?

  • 10.06.2012 7:43 PM PDT
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Thanks for Team Snipers Bungie.
Mythic Member, Legendary Member and back and forth. i just can't make up my mind!
Campaign - Halo C.E.>Halo 2>Halo 3
Multiplayer - Halo 2>Halo 3>Halo C.E.
Just about every thing I post is my opinion and nothing more. Be subjective. Respect other's opinions. Try to understand other's point of view.

War is a horrible thing. To ultimately win a war you either have to be willing to do horrible things, drop a nuclear bomb on women and children for example, or you have to be vastly superior in technology and power.

If giving up a few hundred lives saves billions then it might be considered a necessary evil.

  • 10.07.2012 7:20 AM PDT
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I understand nothing because my life is a conspiracy.

Immoral, but necessary.

  • 10.07.2012 9:32 AM PDT


Posted by: GhostLink2401

Posted by: haloplayer2kill

Posted by: GhostLink2401
I know you said "barring Covenant intervention", but it still kinda made the debate moot. Nobody in their right mind would question the project, or it's ethics, after it single-handedly won humanity the war.

A fractured humanity is no good for expansion. The UNSC needed a quick and decisive way to quell any rebellion. If 150 children have to give up their future to save countless potential lives, then I'd say it was worth it.

And weren't the Spartans all colony kids? What future did they really have to begin with? The Spartan-II program let them live to their full potential, and they likely did more as Spartans than they ever would have as civvies.


Two things to say.

1. Really? Main reason why Mankind won the war? An legitimate argument could be made, that if the Civil War never happened within the Covenant, Mankind, even with Spartans, would have been defeated.

2. We have no evidence that the children were not going to have a great future if they weren't kidnapped, and even if that was the case, that is still no justification for kidnapping them from loving parents. That's like saying its ok for the USA to kidnap kids from 3rd world countries who have parents who love them, just because they think they would have a better life in a 1st world country like the USA.


I dunno if it's elaborated upon in the books, but wasn't it Chief's destruction of Installation 04 that kickstarted the Civil War? Thel fails to protect the ring, and that gets the ball rolling for the Elite's secession from the Covenant. No Spartan project, no destroyed ring.

I doubt anyone else could fight through the Library, get the Index, steal it back from Spark, destroy the phase pulse generators, fight through a Flood infested ship to get Keyes' neural hub, and then fight through the Autumn to destroy the ring.

I seriously doubt the best trained ODST squad could do all that.
The Prophets were planning to replace the Elites with Brutes a long time before that.

  • 10.07.2012 10:09 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: AJF1177
Yes.

Kidnapping children and forcing them to be super soldiers is evil.


I honestly hope that by saying that, you include the S3's as well.

I've seen too many people hate on the S2 project for it's details, and be fine with the S3 project.
Spartan III's were created when the UNSC was already at war with the Covenant.

They were created to buy time, if you've read Ghosts of Oynx then when they're planning out the Spartan III program they say that almost word for word.

I think creating Spartan to ensure Humanity's survival is a reasonable goal. Do I agree with the method? No. Do I agree with the objective? Yes.

  • 10.07.2012 10:11 AM PDT

Posted by: OrderedComa
In fact, they didn't even have any right to rebel at all, seeing as the colonies were all set up with UEG/UNSC funds and resources in the first place, unlike the British colonies in the Americas being set up by private individuals and companies as opposed to the actual government.
They were being over taxed, which interestingly enough was one of the starting points of the American Revolution. Only later did they begin to spin it into some tale of freedom.

  • 10.07.2012 10:21 AM PDT
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I think a better title to this thread would have been - "Do the ends justify the means?"

Was it evil - kidnapping children, putting them through horrednous medical procedures and then forcing them to fight their own kind. Of course it was evil, but it was also necesary as was the creation of the atom bomb.

  • 10.07.2012 12:00 PM PDT

Why are you here?

It's an evil that was worth it in the end.

  • 10.07.2012 12:02 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Mikal7
People, the point I'm trying to make is that the SPARTANs were NOT originally created to protect humanity.

They were created to protect the UNSC.

There is a HUGE difference.


Except the rebellion could pose a threat to all of humanity. Two sides with nukes and the willingness to use them isn't a threat?

  • 10.07.2012 12:02 PM PDT

I'm 23, I have a house, dog, girlfriend, job and I have no interest in any fanboyism so if you're thinking about sending me a childish PM, don't be surprised when I don't call back.

The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest.

At least Spartan IV takes volunteers as opposed to kidnapping kids and forcing them into scientific experimentation that killed or crippled a good chunk of them.

  • 10.07.2012 12:07 PM PDT

"When you say mean things, your weenie will shrink."

-Marshall Mathers, 2004


Posted by: haloplayer2kill

Posted by: And Im Here Too
Intentionally ruining a few hundred lives in exchange for gaining weapons that helped save the human race.

Yes, but it was a necessary evil.


Maybe that's not necessarily true, perhaps in a AU haloverse. Instead of the UNSC trying to create super soldiers out of children. They do it with military adults, adults who have allowed/have given consent to be experiment upon.

Though maybe the UNSC would lose without the Spartan 2's, but we don't know that for fact. Many variables can come into play (for example, in an AU, what if somehow the Elities learned the truth, and a covenant civil war happened before the date it happened in canon haloverse).

They did, but the adults coudlnt handle the augmentations.

  • 10.07.2012 12:10 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: I Judge Bread I
The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest.


Tell that to the people of Mamore and Far Isle.

  • 10.07.2012 12:11 PM PDT

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