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This topic has moved here: Subject: The fallacies of 343i's forerunner trilogy (A misunderstanding)
  • Subject: The fallacies of 343i's forerunner trilogy (A misunderstanding)
Subject: The fallacies of 343i's forerunner trilogy (A misunderstanding)

Rain, and Jazz.
Halo: Tactical

I'm either a fool or an inteligent man, depending on how sleepy or angry I am.

I originaly made an account on 07.27.2007 but I wanted to link my GT and made this account. Don't forget your passwords!

As the title says, this is about the problems with the three books in the forerunner series (which I believe is a trilogy).

It seems to me that the new books have butchered past canon and have held it in contempt, or perhaps made errors. Due to this I have been avoiding the new books severely and have really left the plot of Halo in the dust. I simply do not want to ruin what I once loved, but I do not truly know wether it will totaly ruin it as I fear.

I have read every Halo book (to my knowledge) prior to 343i's books and know the plot of every Halo game thus far released. Could any of you tell me how much of this canon has been overwritten or contradicted by the new trilogy of books? I am fairly eager to read them but I do not wish to read something that will not make sense.

EDIT: There seems to be two trilogies. This "kilo-five trilogy", what is it? I had thought that there was only one 343i trilogy (written by three/two different authors). Could someone shed some light on that instead?

EDIT2: I see my mistake now. What I had thought was a single trilogy published by 343i was actualy two, the forerunner trilogy and the kilo-5 trilogy. This thread was mainly asking why there was so much criticism on it while others thought it was an exellent set of books. I can see now why I did not understand. Thank you.

[Edited on 10.12.2012 11:05 PM PDT]

  • 10.12.2012 3:05 AM PDT
Subject: The fallacies of 343i's forerunner trilogy

It all makes sense. It just might contravene the image of the Forerunners you have in your mind. They're not the benevolent grey-beards we all thought them to be.

  • 10.12.2012 3:17 AM PDT

<(-_-)> Teh mokey is not amused

I personally can't fault the cryptum trilogy for much beyond minor nitpicks. The Kilo-five trilogy however...

  • 10.12.2012 5:28 AM PDT

Think of it this way OP:

We think we know a fair bit about ancient men (pick any random predecessor of us) and write about it from what we have gained from our interpretations of the "material" we have.

Now imagine this:
What if that random predecessor of us were to write about themselves and their culture from his own perspective....

That would be a hell of a lot different I'll tell you that.
And that's basically what happened with Halo.
Up until the Forerunner Trilogy we learned about the Forerunners based upon flawed interpretations...now we learn about them from their own perspective.

  • 10.12.2012 7:15 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

This post contains minor spoilers for the Forerunner Saga.

Are you implying that the Bungie-era Halo novels had absolutely no major discrepancies or inconsistencies? Because I can tell you one thing, the Forerunner books are the most canonically faithful novels in the series. They're based directly off Halo 3's Terminals and expand on what is established in them.

It seems to me that the new books have butchered past canon and have held it in contempt

And where do you get this impression from? There are only 2 complaints about the Forerunner Saga, they are:

1) "Oh they butchered the Forerunners."

2) "I don't like the writing style."

Laugh at the people who say these things.

Firstly, nothing about the Forerunners has been 'butchered' at all.

From second-hand accounts, the fans built up this image of the Forerunners being perfect godlike beings who did good all the time. The people who think this are no more educated than the Covenant, since there is absolutely no evidence even suggesting they're as wonderful as people make them out to be. The only person who actually talks about the Forerunners is Guilty Spark, the rest is all Covenant interpretations.

So how does Halo 3 portray them? In the Terminals, the Librarian refers to the Mantle and puts the Forerunners in a dark light:
The Mantle. You still hold to that [fairy tale] after all that has happened? After this thing has consumed a million worlds?

Can't you see? Belief in the Mantle sealed our doom! Weakened our [protectorates], bred dependence and sloth. Our [so-called Guardianship] has stripped those we would keep safe of any capacity for self-defense!

Were we such noble [Guardians] when we drew our line and abandoned billions to the parasite?


I want to direct you to a key line:
Our so-called Guardianship has stripped those we would keep safe of any capacity for self-defense!

We have a perfect reflection of this action in the Forerunner Saga - their actions against the San'Shyuum and Ancient Humans. Janjur Qom was placed under quarantine, stripping them of their weapons and humanity were blasted back to the Stone Age - thus ridding them OF ANY CAPACITY FOR SELF-DEFENSE. The Librarian mocks the idea of the Forerunners being "noble guardians" because, in reality, they were not at all. The Forerunners exploited a loophole in their 'Mantle' which meant that they would protect all life by making sure they couldn't rise to power against them.

Nothing is changed, merely elaborated on and given substance. But people are so blinded by their preconceptions and throw a fit when the actual truth doesn't match theirs.

And the second point. Greg Bear is the very model of a classical sci-fi writer, which means that he's the kind of writer who wants you to actually think while reading rather than spoon-feed every detail to the reader like a fact file (AKA Karen Traviss style). It's supposed to be thought provoking, narrative driven sci-fi. It's not for everyone, I can understand that, and some things are quite hard to visualise at times, but it's infinitely deeper than some of Nylund's gung-ho action shoot-em-up fests.

Bear's story is so vast and complex that it's hard to get a handle on everything, which ties into the vastness of the Forerunners and how humans in the Haloverse are just now getting a handle on the basics of what they discovered. It also ties into Bornstellar, being an imperfect narrator telling the story means that we get his perspective as well as his thoughts on his culture, successes and failings, rather than a bland omniscient perspective that plagues some of the other books.

Cryptum is my favourite novel in the series, it's a coming-of-age journey into the unknown with an ancient evil pulling the strings in a cosmic game. The battle of the Capitol is by far the most visceral, awe-inducing scenes in the entire series. And until you actually read it then you can't appreciate it.

Haters gonna hate, the Forerunner Saga is the best thing to happen to the thematic integrity of this series since ODST.

[Edited on 10.12.2012 7:39 AM PDT]

  • 10.12.2012 7:38 AM PDT

There is nothing wrong with the forerunner trilogy. If you wanna talk about canon being destroyed then you mean the kilo-five trilogy.



Also you do know that since I believe first strike all books have been 343i books right? 343i has been around for awhile now and they dealt in the multimedia side of halo since the H2 days.

  • 10.12.2012 7:44 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Chester Duncan
Also you do know that since I believe first strike all books have been 343i books right? 343i has been around for awhile now and they dealt in the multimedia side of halo since the H2 days.


343i was formed in 2007 and only had 9 employees until 2008...

  • 10.12.2012 7:49 AM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member

I came for Halo, but I heard the Tru7h, fought thru Carnage, and stayed for Bungie.

No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.--Teddy Roosevelt

What canon has the trilogy violated? The Forerunners' story was never delved into until these books. Before this, the most we had on them were the Terminals in Halo 3.

  • 10.12.2012 8:32 AM PDT

You definitely should and need to read the Forerunner Saga (it is a trilogy), it doesn't hurt or change anything in the canon at all. The only new books that do anything to damage the canon at all are Glasslands and the other two books in that trilogy (Thursday War and the as yet unnamed third one).

Nothing canon about the Forerunners has been changed or overwritten at all, we have gotten much more knowledge and information about them however, the Forerunner Saga is a must read for any big fan of the whole Halo lore, they're probably some of the best written books in the entire series.

  • 10.12.2012 10:05 AM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
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tenn' Ambar-metta!


Posted by: CoRaMo
What canon has the trilogy violated? The Forerunners' story was never delved into until these books. Before this, the most we had on them were the Terminals in Halo 3.


How about creating more Spartan-II that came out of nowhere, instead of bringing MIA S-II back to action, such as Gray Team or Black Team.

  • 10.12.2012 11:44 AM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member

I came for Halo, but I heard the Tru7h, fought thru Carnage, and stayed for Bungie.

No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.--Teddy Roosevelt

Posted by: MasterSin
Posted by: CoRaMo
What canon has the trilogy violated? The Forerunners' story was never delved into until these books. Before this, the most we had on them were the Terminals in Halo 3.

How about creating more Spartan-II that came out of nowhere, instead of bringing MIA S-II back to action, such as Gray Team or Black Team.

What are you talking about? Where in Cryptum or Primordium did you read anything about Spartans? You are confusing the Forerunner Saga written by Greg Bear with the Kilo-Five Trilogy written by Karen Traviss.

  • 10.12.2012 11:54 AM PDT


Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: CoRaMo
What canon has the trilogy violated? The Forerunners' story was never delved into until these books. Before this, the most we had on them were the Terminals in Halo 3.


How about creating more Spartan-II that came out of nowhere, instead of bringing MIA S-II back to action, such as Gray Team or Black Team.


1) That has nothing to do with Cryptum

2) SII's are introduced all the time, I would have thought you'd be used to it by now.

  • 10.12.2012 12:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: CoRaMo
What canon has the trilogy violated? The Forerunners' story was never delved into until these books. Before this, the most we had on them were the Terminals in Halo 3.


How about creating more Spartan-II that came out of nowhere, instead of bringing MIA S-II back to action, such as Gray Team or Black Team.


1) That has nothing to do with Cryptum

2) SII's are introduced all the time, I would have thought you'd be used to it by now.
I think he's referring to the lolKilo-Five Trilogy.

  • 10.12.2012 1:13 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Covenant Carrier

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: CoRaMo
What canon has the trilogy violated? The Forerunners' story was never delved into until these books. Before this, the most we had on them were the Terminals in Halo 3.


How about creating more Spartan-II that came out of nowhere, instead of bringing MIA S-II back to action, such as Gray Team or Black Team.


1) That has nothing to do with Cryptum

2) SII's are introduced all the time, I would have thought you'd be used to it by now.
I think he's referring to the lolKilo-Five Trilogy.


The Kilol-Five trilogy by Karen Travissty

  • 10.12.2012 1:23 PM PDT
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____________(˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜˜)_∏______
l | --------____.`=====.-.~:________\___|================[oo]
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Posted by: ajw34307
This post contains minor spoilers for the Forerunner Saga.

Are you implying that the Bungie-era Halo novels had absolutely no major discrepancies or inconsistencies? Because I can tell you one thing, the Forerunner books are the most canonically faithful novels in the series. They're based directly off Halo 3's Terminals and expand on what is established in them.

It seems to me that the new books have butchered past canon and have held it in contempt

And where do you get this impression from? There are only 2 complaints about the Forerunner Saga, they are:

1) "Oh they butchered the Forerunners."

2) "I don't like the writing style."

Laugh at the people who say these things.

Firstly, nothing about the Forerunners has been 'butchered' at all.

From second-hand accounts, the fans built up this image of the Forerunners being perfect godlike beings who did good all the time. The people who think this are no more educated than the Covenant, since there is absolutely no evidence even suggesting they're as wonderful as people make them out to be. The only person who actually talks about the Forerunners is Guilty Spark, the rest is all Covenant interpretations.

So how does Halo 3 portray them? In the Terminals, the Librarian refers to the Mantle and puts the Forerunners in a dark light:
The Mantle. You still hold to that [fairy tale] after all that has happened? After this thing has consumed a million worlds?

Can't you see? Belief in the Mantle sealed our doom! Weakened our [protectorates], bred dependence and sloth. Our [so-called Guardianship] has stripped those we would keep safe of any capacity for self-defense!

Were we such noble [Guardians] when we drew our line and abandoned billions to the parasite?


I want to direct you to a key line:
Our so-called Guardianship has stripped those we would keep safe of any capacity for self-defense!

We have a perfect reflection of this action in the Forerunner Saga - their actions against the San'Shyuum and Ancient Humans. Janjur Qom was placed under quarantine, stripping them of their weapons and humanity were blasted back to the Stone Age - thus ridding them OF ANY CAPACITY FOR SELF-DEFENSE. The Librarian mocks the idea of the Forerunners being "noble guardians" because, in reality, they were not at all. The Forerunners exploited a loophole in their 'Mantle' which meant that they would protect all life by making sure they couldn't rise to power against them.

Nothing is changed, merely elaborated on and given substance. But people are so blinded by their preconceptions and throw a fit when the actual truth doesn't match theirs.

And the second point. Greg Bear is the very model of a classical sci-fi writer, which means that he's the kind of writer who wants you to actually think while reading rather than spoon-feed every detail to the reader like a fact file (AKA Karen Traviss style). It's supposed to be thought provoking, narrative driven sci-fi. It's not for everyone, I can understand that, and some things are quite hard to visualise at times, but it's infinitely deeper than some of Nylund's gung-ho action shoot-em-up fests.

Bear's story is so vast and complex that it's hard to get a handle on everything, which ties into the vastness of the Forerunners and how humans in the Haloverse are just now getting a handle on the basics of what they discovered. It also ties into Bornstellar, being an imperfect narrator telling the story means that we get his perspective as well as his thoughts on his culture, successes and failings, rather than a bland omniscient perspective that plagues some of the other books.

Cryptum is my favourite novel in the series, it's a coming-of-age journey into the unknown with an ancient evil pulling the strings in a cosmic game. The battle of the Capitol is by far the most visceral, awe-inducing scenes in the entire series. And until you actually read it then you can't appreciate it.

Haters gonna hate, the Forerunner Saga is the best thing to happen to the thematic integrity of this series since ODST.


If I may interject: While I tend to agree wholeheartedly with how books should make you think, Cryptum (and to a significantly lesser extent, Primordium) have very little of that. Cryptum in particular is a series of "and then we did this..." held together by an absolute truckload of canonical revelations and the minor mystery of what the Primordial is supposed to be.

I love character-driven novels, and I love narrative-driven novels. While Primordium manages to throw together a character-driven novel fairly well, There isn't a single interesting character or a trace of a narrative in Cryptum.

  • 10.12.2012 1:52 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Tibetz
If I may interject: While I tend to agree wholeheartedly with how books should make you think, Cryptum (and to a significantly lesser extent, Primordium) have very little of that. Cryptum in particular is a series of "and then we did this..." held together by an absolute truckload of canonical revelations and the minor mystery of what the Primordial is supposed to be.

I love character-driven novels, and I love narrative-driven novels. While Primordium manages to throw together a character-driven novel fairly well, There isn't a single interesting character or a trace of a narrative in Cryptum.


I disagree.

While there is a fair bit of galaxy-hopping in Cryptum, there is a great deal of character development from Bornstellar's perspective as the story progresses. His journey has him start as the rebellious young Forerunner who launches himself into a world he has no control over, sets in motion a series of events which will forever change the Halo universe, and then is later 'mind-melded' with the greatest known Warrior-Servant in the history of the Forerunners.

I found Bornstellar a fascinating character because he was the very first Forerunner character we've actually seen the Halo universe through his perspecive. There was the messages between the Didact & Librarian in Halo 3, but it didn't convey the sense of scale of the universe at the time of the Forerunners because they were obviously in the middle of their war with the Flood. I found it interesting how Bornstellar initially looked down on humans, then grew to share a mutual trust with them; I found his depiction and experiences with Forerunner society interesting because it didn't just provide us with a fact-file account of it, but mixed it with a more personal message because we were seeing it through his eyes.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, but I think you're only looking at this novel skin-deep.

  • 10.12.2012 2:04 PM PDT

Rain, and Jazz.
Halo: Tactical

I'm either a fool or an inteligent man, depending on how sleepy or angry I am.

I originaly made an account on 07.27.2007 but I wanted to link my GT and made this account. Don't forget your passwords!

It appears to me that I may have made a grave error. From what I can tell there are two trilogies published by 343i. Some "kilo-five trilogy" and a forerunner trilogy. I had no idea that there were two trilogies but instead I thought there were three different books written by three (or two) different authors. Could someone shed some light on that?

  • 10.12.2012 2:51 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Arbiter 739
It appears to me that I may have made a grave error. From what I can tell there are two trilogies published by 343i. Some "kilo-five trilogy" and a forerunner trilogy. I had no idea that there were two trilogies but instead I thought there were three different books written by three (or two) different authors. Could someone shed some light on that?


Karen Traviss is writing the Kilo-5 Trilogy, a series of novels set after Halo 3 which builds up a number of major plot points which will appear in Halo 4 (reformation of the Covenant, UNSC Infinity, Spartan-IVs etc), and also continues the story of Blue Team after Ghosts of Onyx.

So far, the novels released are Glasslands and The Thursday War with 1 book left.

Greg Bear is writing the Forerunner Trilogy. Set 100,000 years ago, it seems to be building up the whole "ancient evil" plot for the Reclaimer Trilogy while becoming an entirely new dimension in the Halo universe, expanding hugely on the story, society and culture of the Forerunners.

The novels released for this are Cryptum and Primordium, Silentium is due to be released early next year.

  • 10.12.2012 3:22 PM PDT


Posted by: Arbiter 739
It appears to me that I may have made a grave error. From what I can tell there are two trilogies published by 343i. Some "kilo-five trilogy" and a forerunner trilogy. I had no idea that there were two trilogies but instead I thought there were three different books written by three (or two) different authors. Could someone shed some light on that?


The Forerunner Saga (or trilogy as some call it) is written by Greg Bear and consists of Cryptum, Primordium, and Silentium. The Forerunner Saga are an awesome set of books that pay very close attention to the previously established facts of the Halo universe and the lore. This is one you should read for yourself, and it's quite good.

The Glasslands Trilogy as I call it, most refer to it as the Kilo-5 Trilogy, consists of Glasslands, Thursday War, and the as yet unnamed third book are written by Karen Traviss. And previous lore and facts of the Halo universe are not paid any attention to at all and the trilogy quite clearly violates several facts of canon, mainly in terms of how characters act or what exactly ONI is capable of doing or how certain species such as the Elites act and view other races. This one you could go without reading it and just reading the appropriate articles on Halopedia should be enough, and it's just awful, the writing itself isn't bad, but the stories are.

  • 10.12.2012 3:29 PM PDT

I'm not huge on the Forerunner trilogy myself. Whilst it is interesting to learn about their society, what interests me about them isn't who they were, but how they affect the modern day.

I understand the two are intrinsically linked, but I feel like I'm reading an encyclopedia at times when I read the Forerunner novels. I don't care about the characters all that much, nor what happens. It's the parts such as learning about humanity's legacy, or that Chakas is 343GS that interest me.

I much prefer the K5-trilogy over Bear's. That's not to say I didn't enjoy Cryptum or Primordium (and indeed, I'll be reading them again before H4.) I simply don't care much for the masses of exposition being thrown on the Forerunners. Even with them becoming a major force in the Reclaimer trilogy, I still firmly believe they should have remained a puzzle to be worked out through slight hints, like we did with the Terminals and such.

  • 10.12.2012 3:45 PM PDT

Forerunner trilogy is amazing. I love it even though the second book was boring for the first half. Glasslands and thursday war are horrible. Nothing really happens during the books. Most exciting thing in that trilogy is probably the infinity laying waste to the elites and it wasn't that good.

Plus i really don't like karens writing style.

  • 10.20.2012 10:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Wolverfrog
I'm not huge on the Forerunner trilogy myself. Whilst it is interesting to learn about their society, what interests me about them isn't who they were, but how they affect the modern day.

I understand the two are intrinsically linked, but I feel like I'm reading an encyclopedia at times when I read the Forerunner novels. I don't care about the characters all that much, nor what happens. It's the parts such as learning about humanity's legacy, or that Chakas is 343GS that interest me.

I much prefer the K5-trilogy over Bear's. That's not to say I didn't enjoy Cryptum or Primordium (and indeed, I'll be reading them again before H4.) I simply don't care much for the masses of exposition being thrown on the Forerunners. Even with them becoming a major force in the Reclaimer trilogy, I still firmly believe they should have remained a puzzle to be worked out through slight hints, like we did with the Terminals and such.


But... Kilo-five -blam!-s everything up. Tavis even said she didn't research much of the lore. That makes me sad because I loved it when she wrote the Republic Commando books.

  • 10.20.2012 10:52 PM PDT


Posted by: ErranInfigo

Posted by: Wolverfrog
I'm not huge on the Forerunner trilogy myself. Whilst it is interesting to learn about their society, what interests me about them isn't who they were, but how they affect the modern day.

I understand the two are intrinsically linked, but I feel like I'm reading an encyclopedia at times when I read the Forerunner novels. I don't care about the characters all that much, nor what happens. It's the parts such as learning about humanity's legacy, or that Chakas is 343GS that interest me.

I much prefer the K5-trilogy over Bear's. That's not to say I didn't enjoy Cryptum or Primordium (and indeed, I'll be reading them again before H4.) I simply don't care much for the masses of exposition being thrown on the Forerunners. Even with them becoming a major force in the Reclaimer trilogy, I still firmly believe they should have remained a puzzle to be worked out through slight hints, like we did with the Terminals and such.


But... Kilo-five -blam!-s everything up.


No, it doesn't. Plenty of people say it does, but none of them seem to be able to provide a concrete reason as to why.

  • 10.20.2012 11:50 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Not everything. just some things. Elites still have one head, for instance.

  • 10.20.2012 11:56 PM PDT