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This topic has moved here: Subject: How the prey has become the apex predator (UNSC Infinity)
  • Subject: How the prey has become the apex predator (UNSC Infinity)
Subject: How the prey has become the apex predator (UNSC Infinity)


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Spartan1995324

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: KaneXX12
The infinity maybe tough, but it is the only ship of its expensive class. The sangheili still out gun most UNSC ships. Plus, there are still Supercarriers that are much bigger then the Infinity. Then again, a Supercarrier was destroyed by the Pillar of Autumn.


Not to mention the Elites having the whole remainder of the Covenant Empire at their finger-tips, as well as 99% of the whole Covenant fleets as well...if they wanted to, which they don't, they'd be able to kill off humanity without even breaking a sweat...especially since at the end of Halo 3 there's like hardly any kind of military left, there aren't very many ships, and most of those that remain are frigates...which are weak as hell.
Wrong on two points.

1) In Halo 3 is clearly stated the Brute (Covenant) fleet outnumbered the Elite (Separatist) fleet 3:1. While the Elites won, they had nowhere near 99% of the Covenant's fleet.

2) Many Elites still want to kill humanity. From what I hear about the Thursday War, it's a large chunk.

However they have the capacity to finish us off, which is why some Elites want to do it now.


The Brute Fleet was outnumbering the Elite Fleet 3 to 1 AT THE ARK, meaning that the Elites did not send all their ships but just a little amount of them.
You're right. I forgot about the quarantine around Installtion 05. My bad.

However the Prophets did put the Brutes in control and therefore gave them a vast chunk of ships.

I wouldn't say the Elites have 99% though. The Prophets commanded the Covenant, so the ships that were transferred to Brutes (which was probably a lot since they wanted the Elites to have a lot less power) stayed that way.

If the Elites DID have 99% of the Covenant Fleet I don't know why they didn't just solo the Loyalists on their own? Why even bother working with the UNSC?

I think they worked with the UNSC because they needed more numbers, implying that they didn't have 99% of the fleet.

  • 10.20.2012 11:07 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

The Brutes had two fifths the number of ships as the Elites had before the NOVA bomb destroyed Joyous Exultation. After that event they were said to have equal forces essentially.

That's according to the Encyclopaedia anyway.

  • 10.20.2012 11:43 AM PDT

The Sangheili have very few ships, in truth. Most of the separatist forces were destroyed by Admiral Whitcomb's NOVA bomb shortly after they broke away from the Covenant (but still intended to kill us.) The few that survived were wiped out by Sentinels at Onyx.

The only ones that remained then blockaded Delta Halo and High Charity, trying to quarantine the Flood. Unfortunately, the Flood evolved. When the Flood ship escapes to Earth in Halo 3, the remainder of the Sangheili fleet jumps after it.

The Arbiter questions a Sangheili who drops in, and when told the Flood broke the blockade, he protests: "But we had a fleet of hundreds!"

To which the Sangheili replies: "Alas, my brother, the Flood - it has evolved!"

The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet; the ones that arrive at Earth are all that's left - which is why they're forced to go to the Ark with such a small force that they're outnumbered 3:1. I'm sure there are a few more at Sanghelios and the colonies, but I doubt the Sangheili even have a hundred ships - in no way, shape or form do they have most of the Covenant fleet at their command.

[Edited on 10.20.2012 11:47 AM PDT]

  • 10.20.2012 11:43 AM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog
The Sangheili have very few ships, in truth. Most of the separatist forces were destroyed by Admiral Whitcomb's NOVA bomb shortly after they broke away from the Covenant (but still intended to kill us.) The few that survived were wiped out by Sentinels at Onyx.

The only reasons that remained then blockaded Delta Halo and High Charity, trying to quarantine the Flood. Unfortunately, the Flood evolved. When the Flood ship escapes to Earth in Halo 3, the remainder of the Sangheili fleet jumps after it.

The Arbiter questions a Sangheili who drops in, and when told the Flood broke the blockade, he protests: "But we had a fleet of hundreds!"

To which the Sangheili replies: "Alas, my brother, the Flood - it has evolved!"

The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet; the ones that arrive at Earth are all that's left - which is why they're forced to go to the Ark with such a small force that they're outnumbered 3:1. I'm sure there are a few more at Sanghelios and the colonies, but I doubt the Sangheili even have a hundred ships - in no way, shape or form do they have most of the Covenant fleet at their command.
I need to go play the trilogy again. I'm forgetting too many details...like the Flood breaking the blockade.

  • 10.20.2012 11:48 AM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.


Posted by: Wolverfrog
The Sangheili have very few ships, in truth. Most of the separatist forces were destroyed by Admiral Whitcomb's NOVA bomb shortly after they broke away from the Covenant (but still intended to kill us.) The few that survived were wiped out by Sentinels at Onyx.

The only ones that remained then blockaded Delta Halo and High Charity, trying to quarantine the Flood. Unfortunately, the Flood evolved. When the Flood ship escapes to Earth in Halo 3, the remainder of the Sangheili fleet jumps after it.

The Arbiter questions a Sangheili who drops in, and when told the Flood broke the blockade, he protests: "But we had a fleet of hundreds!"

To which the Sangheili replies: "Alas, my brother, the Flood - it has evolved!"

The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet; the ones that arrive at Earth are all that's left - which is why they're forced to go to the Ark with such a small force that they're outnumbered 3:1. I'm sure there are a few more at Sanghelios and the colonies, but I doubt the Sangheili even have a hundred ships - in no way, shape or form do they have most of the Covenant fleet at their command.

In the spartan ops trailer, the storm faction had a fleet of battle cruisers.

So i think it's safe to say that overall the elites had a good number of ships. And i doubt the storm took all their ships.

  • 10.20.2012 11:49 AM PDT


Posted by: ferrrari

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The Sangheili have very few ships, in truth. Most of the separatist forces were destroyed by Admiral Whitcomb's NOVA bomb shortly after they broke away from the Covenant (but still intended to kill us.) The few that survived were wiped out by Sentinels at Onyx.

The only ones that remained then blockaded Delta Halo and High Charity, trying to quarantine the Flood. Unfortunately, the Flood evolved. When the Flood ship escapes to Earth in Halo 3, the remainder of the Sangheili fleet jumps after it.

The Arbiter questions a Sangheili who drops in, and when told the Flood broke the blockade, he protests: "But we had a fleet of hundreds!"

To which the Sangheili replies: "Alas, my brother, the Flood - it has evolved!"

The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet; the ones that arrive at Earth are all that's left - which is why they're forced to go to the Ark with such a small force that they're outnumbered 3:1. I'm sure there are a few more at Sanghelios and the colonies, but I doubt the Sangheili even have a hundred ships - in no way, shape or form do they have most of the Covenant fleet at their command.

In the spartan ops trailer, the storm faction had a fleet of battle cruisers.

So i think it's safe to say that overall the elites had a good number of ships. And i doubt the storm took all their ships.


I haven't read The Thursday War yet and I haven't started my Glasslands re-read, so I might be missing something. I'm mostly going by what was implied during the trilogy.

  • 10.20.2012 11:51 AM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: ferrrari

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The Sangheili have very few ships, in truth. Most of the separatist forces were destroyed by Admiral Whitcomb's NOVA bomb shortly after they broke away from the Covenant (but still intended to kill us.) The few that survived were wiped out by Sentinels at Onyx.

The only ones that remained then blockaded Delta Halo and High Charity, trying to quarantine the Flood. Unfortunately, the Flood evolved. When the Flood ship escapes to Earth in Halo 3, the remainder of the Sangheili fleet jumps after it.

The Arbiter questions a Sangheili who drops in, and when told the Flood broke the blockade, he protests: "But we had a fleet of hundreds!"

To which the Sangheili replies: "Alas, my brother, the Flood - it has evolved!"

The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet; the ones that arrive at Earth are all that's left - which is why they're forced to go to the Ark with such a small force that they're outnumbered 3:1. I'm sure there are a few more at Sanghelios and the colonies, but I doubt the Sangheili even have a hundred ships - in no way, shape or form do they have most of the Covenant fleet at their command.

In the spartan ops trailer, the storm faction had a fleet of battle cruisers.

So i think it's safe to say that overall the elites had a good number of ships. And i doubt the storm took all their ships.
actually you can see a small size difference betwen some battlecruisers which could indicate some of them are just cruisers.

  • 10.20.2012 12:58 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1995324
Wrong on two points.

2) Many Elites still want to kill humanity. From what I hear about the Thursday War, it's a large chunk.


...Yeah, sure, except for the fact, that, yah know, that isn't canon. Traviss didn't do any of her research on the characters, factions, species, and so on, so a great deal of informal things in the Glasslands Trilogy aren't canon, such as every single Elite ever hates humans, or all of her spiels on the Spartan Program, or for instance Mendez hates Halsey. The only things canon and true are such things like, Parangosky captured and imprisoned Halsey, Jul founds/becomes the leader of the Storm Covenant due to Auv Med Telcam attempting to stage a revolution against the Arbiter...stuff like that.

However they have the capacity to finish us off, which is why some Elites want to do it now.

You're right. I forgot about the quarantine around Installtion 05. My bad.

However the Prophets did put the Brutes in control and therefore gave them a vast chunk of ships.

I wouldn't say the Elites have 99% though. The Prophets commanded the Covenant, so the ships that were transferred to Brutes (which was probably a lot since they wanted the Elites to have a lot less power) stayed that way.

If the Elites DID have 99% of the Covenant Fleet I don't know why they didn't just solo the Loyalists on their own? Why even bother working with the UNSC?

I think they worked with the UNSC because they needed more numbers, implying that they didn't have 99% of the fleet.


Brutes had very little ships, the amount of ships that they were put in charge of, in comparison to the total amount in the Covenant Empire and what the Elites held, were utterly miniscule. That's why I said the Elites held practically 99% of the Covenant ships, it was an exaggeration though, I don't think that was the literal amount of ships they had, just waaaaay more than the Brutes do or ever did.

The whole point of the Elites joining up with the UNSC was to reflect their changed position and all of the character growth and evolution Bungie had been doing with them as a species. They joined with humanity because it was what was right to do.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The Sangheili have very few ships, in truth. Most of the separatist forces were destroyed by Admiral Whitcomb's NOVA bomb shortly after they broke away from the Covenant (but still intended to kill us.) The few that survived were wiped out by Sentinels at Onyx.

The only ones that remained then blockaded Delta Halo and High Charity, trying to quarantine the Flood. Unfortunately, the Flood evolved. When the Flood ship escapes to Earth in Halo 3, the remainder of the Sangheili fleet jumps after it.

The Arbiter questions a Sangheili who drops in, and when told the Flood broke the blockade, he protests: "But we had a fleet of hundreds!"

To which the Sangheili replies: "Alas, my brother, the Flood - it has evolved!"

The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet; the ones that arrive at Earth are all that's left - which is why they're forced to go to the Ark with such a small force that they're outnumbered 3:1. I'm sure there are a few more at Sanghelios and the colonies, but I doubt the Sangheili even have a hundred ships - in no way, shape or form do they have most of the Covenant fleet at their command.


Xytan Jar Wattinree's fleet that got destroyed by the NOVA Bomb is barely a dent in the whole of the Covenant's ships, which as I said, the majority were held by the Elites. So many people seem to not comprehend how vast the amount of space the Covenant controlled was and how many colonies they had and so on...they'd need so many more ships than most people think they have. I mean, for instance, there were at least a hundred thousand ships around High Charity alone.

And no, R'tas fleet was not all that remained of the one around High Charity and Delta Halo, that was a battle-group sent to hunt down the one ship. The defenses weren't destroyed, the one ship that got away was simply able to run the gauntlet and manage to escape. Or multiple ships managed to force their way through and portions of the fleet were broken off in order to hunt them down and stop them...the only thing the Gravemind has when it finally arrives at the Ark is High Charity, which to me says that he had next to no ships to begin with, thus nothing to even scratch the fleets quarantining the space station and Halo.

As I said, R'tas "fleet" was a small battlegroup sent after the one ship, that's why Truth's fleet outnumbered the good guys at the Ark. The rest were out fighting the other ships belonging to the Loyalists that weren't at Earth or the Ark, and the majority grouping on High Charity and Delta Halo to quarantine them and prevent the escape of the Flood. Covenant held space is utterly massive, the war with Humanity would have hardly put a dent in the amount of ships and fleets that they had...especially since the war was about 30 years long and hundreds of ships can be cranked out to those lost almost as soon as they are lost. Everyone seems to be thinking so small when it comes to the Covenant, they weren't a small-fry empire like the UNSC, they controlled a great deal of the local (in terms of lightyears) areas of the galaxy...you don't do that with very little military strength.

  • 10.20.2012 6:20 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa


About your Traviss stuff, your wrong. 343i approved of her novels, which means that what she does is canon, no matter what. You just don't want to believe it.

  • 10.20.2012 6:38 PM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.

While i agree that the elites have a -blam!- load of ships, i doubt there are as many as you say.

-300 got owned by the nova bomb

-Some (unknown number) of ships were given over to the brutes

-When the brutes and the elites went to war, a massive battle happened over high charity, in which lots of elite and brute ships were destroyed (more brutes then elites) but still a large loss for the elites.

-A few more must have been destroyed over the ark, i doubt even Rtas vandam could have saved all his ships.

-The attack on their Home world must have taken a few more out

-The storm as we saw have a nice little fleet.


So yes while the elites may still have a decant number of ships, there not all on speaking terms, and is nowhere near what they used be.

  • 10.20.2012 6:45 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: Spartan1995324
Wrong on two points.

2) Many Elites still want to kill humanity. From what I hear about the Thursday War, it's a large chunk.


...Yeah, sure, except for the fact, that, yah know, that isn't canon. Traviss didn't do any of her research on the characters, factions, species, and so on, so a great deal of informal things in the Glasslands Trilogy aren't canon, such as every single Elite ever hates humans, or all of her spiels on the Spartan Program, or for instance Mendez hates Halsey. The only things canon and true are such things like, Parangosky captured and imprisoned Halsey, Jul founds/becomes the leader of the Storm Covenant due to Auv Med Telcam attempting to stage a revolution against the Arbiter...stuff like that.

Yeah, sure, except for the fact, that, yah know...it IS canon despite what you want. 343i says it's canon, it's canon. Besides not every single Elite hates humans, a large chunk are just scared that Humanity will seek revenge.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: Spartan1995324
However they have the capacity to finish us off, which is why some Elites want to do it now.

You're right. I forgot about the quarantine around Installtion 05. My bad.

However the Prophets did put the Brutes in control and therefore gave them a vast chunk of ships.

I wouldn't say the Elites have 99% though. The Prophets commanded the Covenant, so the ships that were transferred to Brutes (which was probably a lot since they wanted the Elites to have a lot less power) stayed that way.

If the Elites DID have 99% of the Covenant Fleet I don't know why they didn't just solo the Loyalists on their own? Why even bother working with the UNSC?

I think they worked with the UNSC because they needed more numbers, implying that they didn't have 99% of the fleet


Brutes had very little ships, the amount of ships that they were put in charge of, in comparison to the total amount in the Covenant Empire and what the Elites held, were utterly minuscule. That's why I said the Elites held practically 99% of the Covenant ships, it was an exaggeration though, I don't think that was the literal amount of ships they had, just waaaaay more than the Brutes do or ever did.
Where is your source for the number of ships the Brutes were given? There is nothing to suggest that the Prophets DIDN'T give them a vast majority of their ships.

If the Prophets were trying to replace the Elites with the Brutes, wouldn't it make sense to give their new protectors as much military strength as possible?

The Elites held the majority of ships. The Elites were replaced with Brutes. Therefore, the Brutes now hold the majority of ships.

Posted by: OrderedComa
The whole point of the Elites joining up with the UNSC was to reflect their changed position and all of the character growth and evolution Bungie had been doing with them as a species. They joined with humanity because it was what was right to do.
Right thing to do? Had the Elites not been betrayed they would have followed through with the genocide of humanity.

Sure some Elites began to question the Prophets, but they didn't do anything. Maybe the Sangheili would have revolted, but it would have either been too late, or nobody else would side with them since they would be the "bad guys" for starting it.

And as we can see from Glasslands and the Thursday War, clearly not every Elite wants to help the Humans now that the Covenant is gone. They did what they had to do and want nothing more to do with Humanity, unless it is crushing them.

An entire species cannot have the same opinion unless they are a hive mind, which makes them dull and boring as individuals.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: Wolverfrog
The Sangheili have very few ships, in truth. Most of the separatist forces were destroyed by Admiral Whitcomb's NOVA bomb shortly after they broke away from the Covenant (but still intended to kill us.) The few that survived were wiped out by Sentinels at Onyx.

The only ones that remained then blockaded Delta Halo and High Charity, trying to quarantine the Flood. Unfortunately, the Flood evolved. When the Flood ship escapes to Earth in Halo 3, the remainder of the Sangheili fleet jumps after it.

The Arbiter questions a Sangheili who drops in, and when told the Flood broke the blockade, he protests: "But we had a fleet of hundreds!"

To which the Sangheili replies: "Alas, my brother, the Flood - it has evolved!"

The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet; the ones that arrive at Earth are all that's left - which is why they're forced to go to the Ark with such a small force that they're outnumbered 3:1. I'm sure there are a few more at Sanghelios and the colonies, but I doubt the Sangheili even have a hundred ships - in no way, shape or form do they have most of the Covenant fleet at their command.


Xytan Jar Wattinree's fleet that got destroyed by the NOVA Bomb is barely a dent in the whole of the Covenant's ships, which as I said, the majority were held by the Elites. So many people seem to not comprehend how vast the amount of space the Covenant controlled was and how many colonies they had and so on...they'd need so many more ships than most people think they have. I mean, for instance, there were at least a hundred thousand ships around High Charity alone.

And no, R'tas fleet was not all that remained of the one around High Charity and Delta Halo, that was a battle-group sent to hunt down the one ship. The defenses weren't destroyed, the one ship that got away was simply able to run the gauntlet and manage to escape. Or multiple ships managed to force their way through and portions of the fleet were broken off in order to hunt them down and stop them...the only thing the Gravemind has when it finally arrives at the Ark is High Charity, which to me says that he had next to no ships to begin with, thus nothing to even scratch the fleets quarantining the space station and Halo.

As I said, R'tas "fleet" was a small battlegroup sent after the one ship, that's why Truth's fleet outnumbered the good guys at the Ark. The rest were out fighting the other ships belonging to the Loyalists that weren't at Earth or the Ark, and the majority grouping on High Charity and Delta Halo to quarantine them and prevent the escape of the Flood. Covenant held space is utterly massive, the war with Humanity would have hardly put a dent in the amount of ships and fleets that they had...especially since the war was about 30 years long and hundreds of ships can be cranked out to those lost almost as soon as they are lost. Everyone seems to be thinking so small when it comes to the Covenant, they weren't a small-fry empire like the UNSC, they controlled a great deal of the local (in terms of lightyears) areas of the galaxy...you don't do that with very little military strength.
We are not discussing the entire size of the Covenant Fleet. We are discussing who had more ships, Elites or Brutes.

The number of ships could 10 or 1 000 000 000 000 000 000, but whoever had the MOST has the majority, no matter the number.

[Edited on 10.20.2012 6:49 PM PDT]

  • 10.20.2012 6:48 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

I hate that the UNSC suddenly has a vastly more powerful ship than the Covenant. I always loved the lopsided difference between Covie and UNSC ships and that element seems to have been lost now.

It's the Stargate SG1 effect. The writers just rely on biggerer and betterer enemies to make the story more exciting.

  • 10.20.2012 9:14 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

2/5 < 1 and 2/5 = 2/5 were still true when last I checked. I don't see what the debate is about. The 'pedia basically tells us that the Elites had more until the NOVA cleared house, at which point the playing field was essentially level.

It then states that this forced the Elites to seek out new allies, aka Humanity. Seriously? So the Elites would consider Humanity's help, who are still using the same crappy technology that they had been using all throughout the war that has not had much of an impact on the Covenant's ability to destroy them, against the Brutes who are using the same ships and technology that has been utterly destroying Humanity's fleets for 27 years? Heh. That's like going to an Amazonian Jungle tribe for help against a 1st World superpower's military. Humanity isn't going to be of any use just because the same deadly technology is now in the hands of the Brutes. Not even as cannon fodder, because you need lots of cannon fodder for the concept to work effectively, and there aren't many Human fleets left.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet;

I see what you are saying, but with what? Maybe the Gravemind took control of High Charity's defences, but the Elites wouldn't be daft enough to sit there in range and get shot at, would they?

Posted by: ferrrari
In the spartan ops trailer, the storm faction had a fleet of battle cruisers.

Is it those ships with the Green lights? Some of them look like Cruisers, but are actually smaller than a Corvette. Much smaller. In comparison to something like the Infinity they are like Knats. They wouldn't amount to much; probably a fair match for a UNSC Frigate, maybe.

Posted by: crispychicken49
About your Traviss stuff, your wrong. 343i approved of her novels, which means that what she does is canon, no matter what. You just don't want to believe it.

Precisely, because it is unbelievable.

Posted by: Spartan1995324
If the Prophets were trying to replace the Elites with the Brutes, wouldn't it make sense to give their new protectors as much military strength as possible?

Sure. If it happens over a long enough period of time, like on the order of generations so that no one really notices how, when they first entered the military, the Elites were completely in charge as opposed to now where they are completely under Brute leadership. People would ask questions. I can't really see the Elites being completely subservient to the Brutes either and I think the Prophets would realise that. The Elites and their pride wouldn't stand for it. It would be taking the already strained relationship and putting it under extreme pressure that is already bad enough. Brutes were likely placed in otherwise insignificant positions that would make it easier to grab power when the order was given. Some succeeded, most evidently failed. I think it is referred to an uprising in a few places.

Posted by: Spartan1995324
An entire species cannot have the same opinion unless they are a hive mind, which makes them dull and boring as individuals.

Except when it is derisive negativity and cynicism, then it's okay.

Posted by: flamedude
It's the Stargate SG1 effect. The writers just rely on biggerer and betterer enemies to make the story more exciting.

I like the idea of the UNSC advancing. Halo seems to be going down the road of transhumanism bringing up things like AI's and how they and their Human creators can co-exist and even merge in a way, bio-augmentation and biotechnology. It's not like Star Trek where they just have fancy lasers and a holodeck as the vision of the future. It's just how fast they are doing it all, which was the issue with Stargate. In the space of 10 years Humanity goes from being us right now to an intergalactic force to be reckoned with. 1990's planet Earth manages to wipe out a galaxy spanning race of parasites - twice, in 2 galaxies, an intergalactic Von Neumann swarm and a race of omnipotent Gods. Good show though, at least until S9.

  • 10.20.2012 11:48 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Wolverfrog
The implication there as far as I'm aware is that the Flood evolved and managed to defeat the Sangheili fleet;

I see what you are saying, but with what? Maybe the Gravemind took control of High Charity's defences, but the Elites wouldn't be daft enough to sit there in range and get shot at, would they?


In Ghosts of Onyx, they were hijacking ships and crashing them into others so the infection would spread. I imagine they simply did that, and maybe changed their tactics when they evolved.

  • 10.21.2012 12:02 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

That probably only worked once though. Infected, and even possibly infected, ships were vaporized instantly without much inspection by focused fire and infected dropships and Banshees would be ineffective against the shields of a line ship. As a focused swarm on one line ship they could maybe bring the shields down but by that time most of the swarm would be destroyed by the enemy's vastly superior firepower and the very ship that they had just infected would be vaporised along with them. That first infected cruiser likely let a friendly Phantom aboard not knowing that there were Spores and Infection forms stowing away.

  • 10.21.2012 1:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
2/5 < 1 and 2/5 = 2/5 were still true when last I checked. I don't see what the debate is about. The 'pedia basically tells us that the Elites had more until the NOVA cleared house, at which point the playing field was essentially level.

It then states that this forced the Elites to seek out new allies, aka Humanity. Seriously? So the Elites would consider Humanity's help, who are still using the same crappy technology that they had been using all throughout the war that has not had much of an impact on the Covenant's ability to destroy them, against the Brutes who are using the same ships and technology that has been utterly destroying Humanity's fleets for 27 years? Heh. That's like going to an Amazonian Jungle tribe for help against a 1st World superpower's military. Humanity isn't going to be of any use just because the same deadly technology is now in the hands of the Brutes. Not even as cannon fodder, because you need lots of cannon fodder for the concept to work effectively, and there aren't many Human fleets left.


Okay, Humanity isn't the equivalent of a pre-industrial civilization, that is like saying a spear and rocks would kill a tank, its stupid.

They went to humanity because even though they tried to murder all of humanity, they were brilliant strategists, and for another reason. The Demon.

  • 10.21.2012 1:12 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: flamedude
I hate that the UNSC suddenly has a vastly more powerful ship than the Covenant. I always loved the lopsided difference between Covie and UNSC ships and that element seems to have been lost now.

It's the Stargate SG1 effect. The writers just rely on biggerer and betterer enemies to make the story more exciting.

Until Humans are top dog and no other enemy can compare...

  • 10.21.2012 2:17 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ErranInfigo
Okay, Humanity isn't the equivalent of a pre-industrial civilization, that is like saying a spear and rocks would kill a tank, its stupid.

No, it's like saying .50 cal armour piercing rounds, Jackhammer missiles and Gauss weaponry can't kill a Scarab, which they really can't. You're ignoring military-industrial capacity as well. The Covenant's production capabilities, population and territorial size vastly outstrips the UNSC's, especially at such a late stage in the war.

The Covenant would have air dominance as well when they send their line ships to dominate the skies with pulse laser fire and their thousands of Banshees and Seraphs swarm over the place. Sure, pre-industrial societies don't have aircraft at all, but the UNSC may as well not even have them either for all intents and purposes when Assault Carriers and Cruisers start coming down and showering the place in pulse laser fire.

An Elite is basically a S-II and worth a fair number of Marines due to energy shielding, powered armour, plasma weapons and the fact that they are physically superior to Humans by a significant margin. Brutes are largely the same. They are just far better equipped in terms of technology, training, physiology and psychology.

  • 10.21.2012 2:18 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ErranInfigo
Okay, Humanity isn't the equivalent of a pre-industrial civilization, that is like saying a spear and rocks would kill a tank, its stupid.

No, it's like saying .50 cal armour piercing rounds, Jackhammer missiles and Gauss weaponry can't kill a Scarab, which they really can't. You're ignoring military-industrial capacity as well. The Covenant's production capabilities, population and territorial size vastly outstrips the UNSC's, especially at such a late stage in the war.

The Covenant would have air dominance as well when they send their line ships to dominate the skies with pulse laser fire and their thousands of Banshees and Seraphs swarm over the place. Sure, pre-industrial societies don't have aircraft at all, but the UNSC may as well not even have them either for all intents and purposes when Assault Carriers and Cruisers start coming down and showering the place in pulse laser fire.

An Elite is basically a S-II and worth a fair number of Marines due to energy shielding, powered armour, plasma weapons and the fact that they are physically superior to Humans by a significant margin. Brutes are largely the same. They are just far better equipped in terms of technology, training, physiology and psychology.


Now think of the alternative. Would you, in all honesty, just sit on your ass and continue to fight three wars (one with humanity, one with the Flood, one with the Covenant) at the same time while you barely have the capacity to contain the evolved Flood? Would you not seek any help that you could find, no matter how inferior technologically, if that help was willing? Would you stubbornly ignore them and die alone, or increase your chances of survival by getting a few extra guns on board (and while ending one of the wars threatening your survival)?

UNSC tech might be inferior, but Arbiter recognized us as brilliant strategists that can put up a surprising fight against the Covenant. As desperate as the situation was, with not only your race, but the existence of all life in general at stake, you mean to honestly tell us that you wouldn't accept help from anyone who could offer it, no matter how much you've hated them all your life or how technologically inferior? Those amazonian warriors are still more warriors than you had before. And it just so happens one of those warriors is considered a demon in your people's eyes.

Come on now seriously, this is just common sense.

  • 10.21.2012 9:58 AM PDT

A Sangheili had served with Regret upon the Forerunner Shield World in Halo Wars, and saw that Regret needed Anders to activate the Apex. He told R'tas, who realised he'd need the humans' help to stop the sacred rings from lighting.

Prove me wrong.

Edit: Scratch that, I just realised the Sangheili had 343 Guilty Spark - obviously he told them Reclaimers were needed to interface with Forerunner technology, and so R'tas set out to form an alliance.

Case closed.

[Edited on 10.21.2012 10:08 AM PDT]

  • 10.21.2012 10:06 AM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ErranInfigo
Okay, Humanity isn't the equivalent of a pre-industrial civilization, that is like saying a spear and rocks would kill a tank, its stupid.

No, it's like saying .50 cal armour piercing rounds, Jackhammer missiles and Gauss weaponry can't kill a Scarab, which they really can't. You're ignoring military-industrial capacity as well. The Covenant's production capabilities, population and territorial size vastly outstrips the UNSC's, especially at such a late stage in the war.

The Covenant would have air dominance as well when they send their line ships to dominate the skies with pulse laser fire and their thousands of Banshees and Seraphs swarm over the place. Sure, pre-industrial societies don't have aircraft at all, but the UNSC may as well not even have them either for all intents and purposes when Assault Carriers and Cruisers start coming down and showering the place in pulse laser fire.

An Elite is basically a S-II and worth a fair number of Marines due to energy shielding, powered armour, plasma weapons and the fact that they are physically superior to Humans by a significant margin. Brutes are largely the same. They are just far better equipped in terms of technology, training, physiology and psychology.


Now think of the alternative. Would you, in all honesty, just sit on your ass and continue to fight three wars (one with humanity, one with the Flood, one with the Covenant) at the same time while you barely have the capacity to contain the evolved Flood? Would you not seek any help that you could find, no matter how inferior technologically, if that help was willing? Would you stubbornly ignore them and die alone, or increase your chances of survival by getting a few extra guns on board (and while ending one of the wars threatening your survival)?

UNSC tech might be inferior, but Arbiter recognized us as brilliant strategists that can put up a surprising fight against the Covenant. As desperate as the situation was, with not only your race, but the existence of all life in general at stake, you mean to honestly tell us that you wouldn't accept help from anyone who could offer it, no matter how much you've hated them all your life or how technologically inferior? Those amazonian warriors are still more warriors than you had before. And it just so happens one of those warriors is considered a demon in your people's eyes.

Come on now seriously, this is just common sense.
Agreed.

As they say: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

  • 10.21.2012 11:26 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
2/5 < 1 and 2/5 = 2/5 were still true when last I checked. I don't see what the debate is about. The 'pedia basically tells us that the Elites had more until the NOVA cleared house, at which point the playing field was essentially level.

It then states that this forced the Elites to seek out new allies, aka Humanity. Seriously? So the Elites would consider Humanity's help, who are still using the same crappy technology that they had been using all throughout the war that has not had much of an impact on the Covenant's ability to destroy them, against the Brutes who are using the same ships and technology that has been utterly destroying Humanity's fleets for 27 years? Heh. That's like going to an Amazonian Jungle tribe for help against a 1st World superpower's military. Humanity isn't going to be of any use just because the same deadly technology is now in the hands of the Brutes. Not even as cannon fodder, because you need lots of cannon fodder for the concept to work effectively, and there aren't many Human fleets left.
Something is better than nothing.

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: crispychicken49
About your Traviss stuff, your wrong. 343i approved of her novels, which means that what she does is canon, no matter what. You just don't want to believe it.

Precisely, because it is unbelievable.
343i gets the final say in what is canon and what isn't. You don't. End of story.

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
If the Prophets were trying to replace the Elites with the Brutes, wouldn't it make sense to give their new protectors as much military strength as possible?

Sure. If it happens over a long enough period of time, like on the order of generations so that no one really notices how, when they first entered the military, the Elites were completely in charge as opposed to now where they are completely under Brute leadership. People would ask questions. I can't really see the Elites being completely subservient to the Brutes either and I think the Prophets would realise that. The Elites and their pride wouldn't stand for it. It would be taking the already strained relationship and putting it under extreme pressure that is already bad enough. Brutes were likely placed in otherwise insignificant positions that would make it easier to grab power when the order was given. Some succeeded, most evidently failed. I think it is referred to an uprising in a few places.
The Prophets ordered the geonicide of the Elites. They went after high ranking Elites first, but there were probably Brutes who took ships by force because of this order.

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
An entire species cannot have the same opinion unless they are a hive mind, which makes them dull and boring as individuals.
Except when it is derisive negativity and cynicism, then it's okay.
I don't know where you got that assumption, but that's not what I was getting at.

The situation on Sangheilios is that the Elites are split. Some want to finish off humanity, others don't.

  • 10.21.2012 11:31 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Now think of the alternative. Would you, in all honesty, just sit on your ass and continue to fight three wars (one with humanity, one with the Flood, one with the Covenant) at the same time while you barely have the capacity to contain the evolved Flood? Would you not seek any help that you could find, no matter how inferior technologically, if that help was willing? Would you stubbornly ignore them and die alone, or increase your chances of survival by getting a few extra guns on board (and while ending one of the wars threatening your survival)?

It is not just about how powerful your technology is, it is also about how fast you can produce your technology and how much of it you have. If Humanity could still produce a fine amount of ships in a decent time frame then they might make good cannon fodder, but they can't. If I was going into an alliance I would want to make sure that the other end can pull their weight, has something to offer and that I am not carrying them. Otherwise it ends up that I am just having to defend both my own territories and logistics and that of my ally who cannot defend itself. So it really doesn't benefit me at all and just spreads my resources thin by increasing the territory I have to defend whilst the number of ships, manpower and resources I have remains the same. The alliance just becomes a hindrance. So not only is the UNSC's technology inferior, but it can't produce it nearly as fast as me or my main opponent can who have better technology as well, and to add to that they have far less of it to begin with. It is pointless to even consider the alliance in the first place. Like strapping a bicycle dynamo generator to the output of a Nuclear power station.

You're also acting under the assumption that the war with Humanity was still going on, and still taxing the Sangheili in some way. To be honest, it was sort of over at that point in all practical sense. Earth was the only world with any meaningful population left at the time, the UNSC fleet was in tatters as was their ability to produce ships and transport weapons and ammunition from the places that manufactured them, such as on Mars. The Sangheili could have ended the war once and for all right then and there with little to no loss in ships rather than engage in entirely one sided alliances with no benefit to them.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
UNSC tech might be inferior, but Arbiter recognized us as brilliant strategists that can put up a surprising fight against the Covenant. As desperate as the situation was, with not only your race, but the existence of all life in general at stake, you mean to honestly tell us that you wouldn't accept help from anyone who could offer it, no matter how much you've hated them all your life or how technologically inferior? Those amazonian warriors are still more warriors than you had before. And it just so happens one of those warriors is considered a demon in your people's eyes.

Come on now seriously, this is just common sense.

Well I have just been considering the practical aspects of the alliance. If we then throw in the idea that the Sangheili are supposed to utterly despise Humans then the concept become ridiculous. Not only is there little to no practical incentive to the alliance, but there is also a strong aversion of the idea created by emotional reasons. What reason is there for the Sangheili to overcome their hatred and do something like that? None. And those brilliant strategists have still lost the war against the same technology and military-industrial power that the Brutes are now using. Those brilliant strategies were ultimately useless; why they would suddenly become a game changer now is beyond me. And don't say that they can give Humanity their technology to better equip these strategies, because it would years to apply it and develop new tactics around it.

Yeah, those Amazonian tribes add to you total number of warriors, but they don't add to your assets because you can't really apply them in any meaningful way.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
A Sangheili had served with Regret upon the Forerunner Shield World in Halo Wars, and saw that Regret needed Anders to activate the Apex. He told R'tas, who realised he'd need the humans' help to stop the sacred rings from lighting.

Prove me wrong.

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Edit: Scratch that, I just realised the Sangheili had 343 Guilty Spark - obviously he told them Reclaimers were needed to interface with Forerunner technology, and so R'tas set out to form an alliance.

Case closed.

Even 3 months after the event, still no one except a small few know about Humanity's inheritance and they are all Humans. You'd think that the Arbiter would use this massively powerful testimony to ameliorate the tensions within his people regarding Humanity and to really get them to think about things, but he doesn't. Not even in the presence of Humans alone does he bring the subject up. So he probably hasn't put 2 and 2 together yet. He probably thinks that he had just as likely a chance at pushing the button as John did and that there is nothing special about Humans. There are no spreading rumours in GL/TTW either from the Sangheili who served under Rtas. There is nothing at all. So what actually points to the fact that 343 GS mentioned such a massive and ground shaking revelation to the Sangheili?

For expediency it might be wiser to just simply abduct a number of Humans from Earth and use them to forcibly activate Forerunner technology. Going by post Halo 3 stuff, if you want to believe that Spark opened his mouth about this, then it is evident that the Sangheili don't care about Humans being Reclaimers anyway.

Posted by: Spartan1995324
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: crispychicken49
About your Traviss stuff, your wrong. 343i approved of her novels, which means that what she does is canon, no matter what. You just don't want to believe it.

Precisely, because it is unbelievable.
343i gets the final say in what is canon and what isn't. You don't. End of story.

Canon isn't synonymous with logic and common sense, which I am surprised you haven't figured out yet.

Posted by: Spartan1995324
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
An entire species cannot have the same opinion unless they are a hive mind, which makes them dull and boring as individuals.
Except when it is derisive negativity and cynicism, then it's okay.
I don't know where you got that assumption, but that's not what I was getting at.

The situation on Sangheilios is that the Elites are split. Some want to finish off humanity, others don't.

What I was getting at was that your statement was ironic, because homogenization of a species is exactly what the very books you defend have ended up doing. Where do you even get the idea that some don't want to finish off Humanity? It was made pretty clear that the grassroots of the the Arbiter's faction want peace until merely until they can build up enough strength; they don't want peace, they view it as being needed for the moment. The Arbiter is sitting on a time bomb. When his people are strong enough, his appeal as a leader is gone. It would be good if you, or someone else, can find evidence that some Elites don't want to finish off Humanity and actually want an end to hostilities for good.

[Edited on 10.21.2012 11:57 AM PDT]

  • 10.21.2012 11:38 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: crispychicken49
About your Traviss stuff, your wrong. 343i approved of her novels, which means that what she does is canon, no matter what. You just don't want to believe it.

Precisely, because it is unbelievable.
343i gets the final say in what is canon and what isn't. You don't. End of story.

Canon isn't synonymous with logic and common sense, which I am surprised you haven't figured out yet.
Yeah it sucks, but there isn't anything we can do about it, is there?
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
An entire species cannot have the same opinion unless they are a hive mind, which makes them dull and boring as individuals.
Except when it is derisive negativity and cynicism, then it's okay.
I don't know where you got that assumption, but that's not what I was getting at.

The situation on Sangheilios is that the Elites are split. Some want to finish off humanity, others don't.

What I was getting at was that your statement was ironic, because homogenization of a species is exactly what the very books you defend have ended up doing. Where do you even get the idea that some don't want to finish off Humanity? It was made pretty clear that the grassroots of the the Arbiter's faction want peace until merely until they can build up enough strength; they don't want peace, they view it as being needed for the moment. The Arbiter is sitting on a time bomb. When his people are strong enough, his appeal as a leader is gone. It would be good if you, or someone else, can find evidence that some Elites don't want to finish off Humanity and actually want an end to hostilities for good.
All the Elites we have been presented with. While I disagree with Travis only showing us "hateful" Elites, I don't think they can be a hive mind.

I mean, look at the Great Schism. We were told that Elites and Brutes HATED each other. Now on Sangheilios we have Brutes working as farmers?

[Edited on 10.21.2012 12:08 PM PDT]

  • 10.21.2012 12:06 PM PDT

What spartan ops trailer? Could some one please link me it.

  • 10.21.2012 1:52 PM PDT