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Subject: Skipping Grasslands

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Oblivion328
But is Margaret's involvement common knowledge now? I could see ONI using Halsey as a scapegoat to avoid public persecution for their unethical projects.


She's the head of ONI, therefore any program must be approved or at least known by her, that alone gives her as much guilt as Halsey seeing how she approved the program and say "okay, here's the money!"

  • 10.23.2012 9:29 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Considering ONI conscripted Halsey...I would think they would know the details already.

  • 10.23.2012 9:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Oblivion328
But is Margaret's involvement common knowledge now? I could see ONI using Halsey as a scapegoat to avoid public persecution for their unethical projects.


Considering that all or most people in high leadership positions in the UNSC like Lord Hood know the origins of the Spartan Program, more or less, they'd also know Parangosky's own role in it...and I doubt they'd approve very much of her trying to pin all of the blame on Halsey and trying to get off scott-free...I know Hood wouldn't at least, and he's pretty much the defacto commander and chief of the whole armed forces, he has a great deal of both military clout and political.

  • 10.23.2012 9:46 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Considering ONI conscripted Halsey...I would think they would know the details already.


Of course not, it's not like they are an intelligence organization... well, not according to Traviss, that is.

  • 10.23.2012 9:47 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Office of Naval Incompetence.

  • 10.23.2012 9:49 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Office of Naval Incompetence.


Not even that....more like Cerberus retarded clone. That's how dumb ONI has become and how far off base their portrayal is being made.

[Edited on 10.23.2012 10:02 PM PDT]

  • 10.23.2012 10:02 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: crumpster212
The Halsey--blam!- finally got what she deserved in my opinion, although Margaret telling her about her daughter was really a low blow.
MORELESZ FORT WEENERS!!.! You guys are idiots. Halsey just did her job. If she didn't then they would have replaced her with someone who would have cared alit else.


"Even shadowy ONI was squeamish about her experiments." I don't think they liked what Halsey was doing, and before this she says "ONI had buried her [in a private office tucked away] years ago."

I honestly don't think ONI knew the full details of the SPARTAN program at first, and by the time they did, it was already too far along.


Source on first line. They didn't like how slow/safe Halsey was. It's why she wasn't in the S3 program. As time went on, she went from making Spartans to starting to actively hinder getting more Spartans on the field with how safe she was being.

Second paragraph. What -blam!- rock have you been living under? ONI knew the full details since the very -blam!- beginning. They gave her the supplies, they gave her the staff, they gave her AI's for teaching the Spartans.

I'm sorry, but there is zero way ONI was clueless about the S2 program until it was "too late to stop it". I mean, honestly. they were involved in both kidnapping the S2 kids, AND putting the flash clones in.


But how high did that go up? The source for the first line is The Fall of Reach, and the context makes it clear that what they're squeamish about are the experiments. Nothing about them being annoyed with how safe or slow she is.

I'm saying that the top brass at ONI weren't aware of the full extent. Halsey was isolated in her little corner of the world, and I think she used some lower-tier members of ONI to kidnap the kids and replace them with flash clones.

I don't think Parangosky knew until a bit later, by which time it was too late. She's not mentioned in any of Nylund's novel as being someone who ordered the S-II program, although you wouldn't think it by how people go on here.

And it's not that Halsey was being 'safe.' She just wanted maximum results from her subjects, which is why she had such stringent genetic demands. Ackerson was safer than she was; his augmentations didn't bear a risk of fatality.

I'm not saying ONI were clueless about the S2 program until it was too late. I'm saying some of the top brass in ONI were, probably because Halsey thought they'd oppose it. Remember, she's the one who mentions how worried she was about the outer colony stability.

I think she not only conceived the SPARTAN II program, but carried out the initial stages of her own accord, without a green light from the top dogs.

  • 10.24.2012 1:18 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: crumpster212
The Halsey--blam!- finally got what she deserved in my opinion, although Margaret telling her about her daughter was really a low blow.
MORELESZ FORT WEENERS!!.! You guys are idiots. Halsey just did her job. If she didn't then they would have replaced her with someone who would have cared alit else.


"Even shadowy ONI was squeamish about her experiments." I don't think they liked what Halsey was doing, and before this she says "ONI had buried her [in a private office tucked away] years ago."

I honestly don't think ONI knew the full details of the SPARTAN program at first, and by the time they did, it was already too far along.


Are you sure you read the same Fall of Reach that I did? Because I clearly recall ONI not giving a -blam!- about the Spartan II's. Halsey wanted to test the augmentation effects more before they would be augmented, but ONI wouldn't have it. The only reason she did apply them prematurely (prematurely as in, before the optimal efficiency rate she hoped for was achieved) was because she feared that she would be replaced by somebody who didn't care about the Spartan II's.

But then again, she must be a monster for doing something as trivial as wanting to stop a potential civil war, and she is clearly a monster for treating the Spartan II's as more than just tools like the rest of the UNSC did, I mean, it's not like she was the only one that could actually distinguish them, even in their armors, oh wait...

In fact, the one that should be demonized should be Margaret, seeing how the hag approved, not one, but two Spartan programs, using a false promise of revenge to turn orphans into tools to fight the Covenant, what happened when all of Alpha was massacred? oh that's right! she congratulated Kurt and even assured him they would do it again if they had the chance to do so.

This is right on the money.

But Traviss plays a different game.

It's hard to make sense of current canon when it doesn't follow through with old. T-Halsey might as well be a new character in this arc.

Meh. It is what it is. Just take Glassland and TW for what it is. A sequel from a new author under a different interpretation of the Halo Universe. If you want to take these novels more seriously, you just have to ignore the older ones and you won't be disgruntled [as much] with a fresher perspective.

  • 10.24.2012 5:14 AM PDT

How am I driving?
Call 1-800-KISS MY SLIP SPACE RUPTURE

Yup, Grasslands is bad... But Glasslands is pretty good.

  • 10.24.2012 5:34 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Wolverfrog

But how high did that go up? The source for the first line is The Fall of Reach, and the context makes it clear that what they're squeamish about are the experiments. Nothing about them being annoyed with how safe or slow she is.


I'd say it went pretty far considering she initially got funding for 300 candidates before it got slashed for half that.

I'm saying that the top brass at ONI weren't aware of the full extent. Halsey was isolated in her little corner of the world, and I think she used some lower-tier members of ONI to kidnap the kids and replace them with flash clones.

You do know those who didn't comply with the order to kidnap the kids were executed? Thursday War implies this from Spencer when he says "ONI puts down healthy dogs". You mean to tell me some civilian scientist has that authority?

I don't think Parangosky knew until a bit later, by which time it was too late. She's not mentioned in any of Nylund's novel as being someone who ordered the S-II program, although you wouldn't think it by how people go on here.

Where is the evidence to really support she didn't know about it? She green-lit the S-III Project simply with the promise of thousands of Spartans and continued to do so after 600+ of them died. Yet what the S-IIs did just was too much for her to consider?

And it's not that Halsey was being 'safe.' She just wanted maximum results from her subjects, which is why she had such stringent genetic demands. Ackerson was safer than she was; his augmentations didn't bear a risk of fatality.

He also had the benefit of Halsey's research and safer drugs due to medical technology advancing.

I'm not saying ONI were clueless about the S2 program until it was too late. I'm saying some of the top brass in ONI were, probably because Halsey thought they'd oppose it. Remember, she's the one who mentions how worried she was about the outer colony stability.

I think she not only conceived the SPARTAN II program, but carried out the initial stages of her own accord, without a green light from the top dogs.


Don't you see how bizarrely stupid that sounds? Some civilian scientist was able to use a variety of spacecraft to traverse the galaxy, get agents to kidnap about 75 kids, track those down that managed to escape and go through with augmentation procedures without the top brass of ONI knowing?



[Edited on 10.24.2012 8:08 AM PDT]

  • 10.24.2012 8:07 AM PDT

It sounds less stupid than Parangosky commissioning the project and then convincing herself years later that Halsey did it all without her knowledge.

Halsey wasn't 'some civilian scientist,' she was in the employ of ONI and had an office in the Omega Wing of CASTLE base. Clearly she had influence; I'd say enough to organise the beginnings of the S-II project without asking Parangosky's permission. I believe that she kidnapped the kids and replaced them with flash clones of her own accord - I think after this the top brass became aware of the project, but by then the damage was done and so they pressed on with the training and augmentations.

Parangosky didn't approve the S-III project 'simply with the promise of Spartans.' She only approved it because the Covenant were close to the inner colonies, and without the S-IIIs the war would soon be over. Throughout the entirety of the meeting with Ackerson and the rest of the board, her expression was one of 'cast-iron' and 'didn't betray a hint of emotion.'

When asked to decide if the lives of hundreds were worth the lives of millions, it's only then that this mask breaks down when she knows it's the only way, and whispers 'God help us all;' a rare show of emotion from an otherwise stony woman.

I'm not saying Parangosky's not hypocritical - of course she is, and her persecution of Halsey is ridiculous; I can understand why the others in the K-5 trilogy loathe her so (they don't know all the facts. Parangosky's mostly projecting her own guilt onto a scapegoat I think; she's close to death, and doesn't want to die thinking herself a monster. That she's ridding herself of a political enemy is just the icing on the cake - she says in GoO that if Halsey's wasn't so popular among FLEETCOM, she'd have been 'retired' years ago (and we know what that really means.)

That S-IIIs were orphans, they were told up-front what would happen, they had a choice (a bit of a mummer's choice considering their age, but still) and most importantly, humanity was losing the Covenant war. Halsey started the S-II program primarily due to scientific curiosity; Parangosky's green-lit the S-III program because there was no other way.

  • 10.24.2012 8:34 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
That S-IIIs were orphans, they were told up-front what would happen, they had a choice (a bit of a mummer's choice considering their age, but still) and most importantly, humanity was losing the Covenant war. Halsey started the S-II program primarily due to scientific curiosity; Parangosky's green-lit the S-III program because there was no other way.


Or she started it based on her reaction to the Carver Findings and the threat of another Dark Age. The Assembly butting in secretly didn't help.

  • 10.24.2012 8:39 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: Wolverfrog
It sounds less stupid than Parangosky commissioning the project and then convincing herself years later that Halsey did it all without her knowledge.

Halsey wasn't 'some civilian scientist,' she was in the employ of ONI and had an office in the Omega Wing of CASTLE base. Clearly she had influence; I'd say enough to organise the beginnings of the S-II project without asking Parangosky's permission. I believe that she kidnapped the kids and replaced them with flash clones of her own accord - I think after this the top brass became aware of the project, but by then the damage was done and so they pressed on with the training and augmentations.

Parangosky didn't approve the S-III project 'simply with the promise of Spartans.' She only approved it because the Covenant were close to the inner colonies, and without the S-IIIs the war would soon be over. Throughout the entirety of the meeting with Ackerson and the rest of the board, her expression was one of 'cast-iron' and 'didn't betray a hint of emotion.'

When asked to decide if the lives of hundreds were worth the lives of millions, it's only then that this mask breaks down when she knows it's the only way, and whispers 'God help us all;' a rare show of emotion from an otherwise stony woman.

I'm not saying Parangosky's not hypocritical - of course she is, and her persecution of Halsey is ridiculous; I can understand why the others in the K-5 trilogy loathe her so (they don't know all the facts. Parangosky's mostly projecting her own guilt onto a scapegoat I think; she's close to death, and doesn't want to die thinking herself a monster. That she's ridding herself of a political enemy is just the icing on the cake - she says in GoO that if Halsey's wasn't so popular among FLEETCOM, she'd have been 'retired' years ago (and we know what that really means.)

That S-IIIs were orphans, they were told up-front what would happen, they had a choice (a bit of a mummer's choice considering their age, but still) and most importantly, humanity was losing the Covenant war. Halsey started the S-II program primarily due to scientific curiosity; Parangosky's green-lit the S-III program because there was no other way.
-Blame Traviss for not doing research.

-At the beginning of her employment at ONI she was "some civilian scientist", then she gained influence during the war.

-They were told they'd be made into SPARTANs, ONI kinda left out the "suicide mission" -part. And yes, they really didn't get to choose.

EDIT:Posted by: Wolverfrog
I think she not only conceived the SPARTAN II program, but carried out the initial stages of her own accord, without a green light from the top dogs.
If this is true, tell me, what was she originally hired to do?

And ORION happened before Halsey was in ONI...

[Edited on 10.24.2012 10:49 AM PDT]

  • 10.24.2012 10:30 AM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Wolverfrog
That S-IIIs were orphans, they were told up-front what would happen, they had a choice (a bit of a mummer's choice considering their age, but still) and most importantly, humanity was losing the Covenant war. Halsey started the S-II program primarily due to scientific curiosity; Parangosky's green-lit the S-III program because there was no other way.


Or she started it based on her reaction to the Carver Findings and the threat of another Dark Age. The Assembly butting in secretly didn't help.


As cobra said, Halsey NEVER, ONCE went "I wonder what happens when this augmentation is put in a kid."

She didn't expirament on the children.

Also, Parangosky NEVER once in Thursday war was trying to convince herself Halsey did it all without her knowledge. The only frakking thing Glasslands and Thursday war claims Halsey did without Parangosky's approval was the flash clone replacements. NOTHING ELSE.

Parangosky and ONI told Halsey to start the S2 program because without the Spartans humanity would go into civil war with massive losses. Not "Gee, I wonder..."

  • 10.24.2012 10:34 AM PDT

Posted by: Wolverfrog
But how high did that go up? The source for the first line is The Fall of Reach, and the context makes it clear that what they're squeamish about are the experiments. Nothing about them being annoyed with how safe or slow she is.

I'm saying that the top brass at ONI weren't aware of the full extent. Halsey was isolated in her little corner of the world, and I think she used some lower-tier members of ONI to kidnap the kids and replace them with flash clones.

I don't think Parangosky knew until a bit later, by which time it was too late. She's not mentioned in any of Nylund's novel as being someone who ordered the S-II program, although you wouldn't think it by how people go on here.

And it's not that Halsey was being 'safe.' She just wanted maximum results from her subjects, which is why she had such stringent genetic demands. Ackerson was safer than she was; his augmentations didn't bear a risk of fatality.

I'm not saying ONI were clueless about the S2 program until it was too late. I'm saying some of the top brass in ONI were, probably because Halsey thought they'd oppose it. Remember, she's the one who mentions how worried she was about the outer colony stability.


That line is not in The Fall of Reach at all...if it is in there, gimme the page number it's on please, so I can read it for myself, and someone other than Roberto check it to please?

-__- Are you completely daft? You seriously need to re-read the books as you seem to have forgotten the origins of the Spartans. They were created because ONI and the higher-ups within the UNSC were looking for a successor to the ORION super-soldier project...and they approached Halsey with the offer of leading it because of her advanced knowledge of genetics and so on. And she didn't want to do it at first, she had to run all of the numbers on the Insurrection herself and double-check the results of the Carver Findings (which predicted if left unchecked that the Insurrectionists would leave billions dead and knock humanity back into a second set of Dark Ages before it was all through) before finally agreeing to do it...in other words she needed convincing. Besides the books this is all talked about in fairly intent detail in Halsey's Journal. As the head of ONI, Parangosky would be one of the ones authorizing and signing off on the successor to the ORION Project, which became the Spartan II Program, so yes, she did authorize the project in the first place.

No, the reason there were so many, and any, genetic requirements at all, is because they would be the only ones whose bodies could accept the augmentations and have the candidates come out with the least fatalities. It wasn't because Halsey believed in or was trying to create some sort of Aryan Master Race or Ubermensch. And yes, the Spartan III Program was safer...because they had all of Halsey's research to build off of and about 15-20+ years of medical advances to give them a zero percent casualty or wash-out rate...but even the IIIs still had to meet genetic requirements in order for the augments to take or have them survive, but they were less stringent than with the IIs, again, because of medical advances making a larger amount of applicability. Just like the Spartan IVs are adults, or damn near it, when augmented because of even further medical advances.

I think she not only conceived the SPARTAN II program, but carried out the initial stages of her own accord, without a green light from the top dogs.

Red the books and Halsey's Journal again, she didn't come up with it, ONI and the UNSC did. They wanted a successor to the ORION Project and to try their hand at making super-soldiers again. Halsey was just who they picked to head up the project, she didn't think it up at all. As such, that makes the other part of your statement in error as well...Halsey didn't start nothing on her own.

  • 10.24.2012 7:50 PM PDT

Despite the opposing viewpoints of the Innsurrectionist - UNSC war... One thing IS clear.

The Spartans were designed by ONI and the UNSC to put down any and all rebellions. Ruthlessly, efficiently, and without remorse. At least that was the original purpose.

You DON'T hire someone to create the most powerful soldiers and then NOT know what they are up to. It's YOUR money, YOUR resources, and YOUR project. You just needed some help, but why WOULDN'T you know what's going?

  • 10.24.2012 8:01 PM PDT

In summary, don't skip Glasslands.

  • 10.25.2012 7:10 AM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: crumpster212
The Halsey--blam!- finally got what she deserved in my opinion, although Margaret telling her about her daughter was really a low blow.
MORELESZ FORT WEENERS!!.! You guys are idiots. Halsey just did her job. If she didn't then they would have replaced her with someone who would have cared alit else.


Moral ambiguity is a cornerstone of characters that are not black and white, which are in general just better characters. Discussing them promotes thought and insight, enriching the story. Does the excuse "they was just doing their job" apply to the N@zis who ran death camps? No, but even less so considering Halsey practically came up with the idea and wanted to be there.

Think about that next time you're about to jump on the anti-Traviss bandwagon.
"looks at Halsey and the n@zis" my god your right! The n@zis and Halsey are the same! Wait....didn't ONI trick Halsey into the S-II program? Didn't she feel guilt for what would happen to the kids?

You idiots need to jump off traviss bandwagon. Halo wasn't black and white before that dumb -blam!- wrote halo books on crack. Go reread all the halo books and you'll see that is moral in the books.

  • 10.25.2012 8:20 AM PDT


Posted by: MaxRealflugel
In summary, don't skip Glasslands.


i really should have been more on top of reading these new Halo books....

...but it sounds like its kind of a throwback to anti-colonialism and anti-exceptionalism. i don't know, i haven't ready them, but are they essential for Halo 4?

  • 10.25.2012 10:11 AM PDT


Posted by: Footbutt

Posted by: MaxRealflugel
In summary, don't skip Glasslands.


i really should have been more on top of reading these new Halo books....

...but it sounds like its kind of a throwback to anti-colonialism and anti-exceptionalism. i don't know, i haven't ready them, but are they essential for Halo 4?


In my opinion, no...anything in them you'll be able to learn just as easily from Halo 4 itself. It's not like The Fall of Reach where you learn a whole lot about the different characters or anything at all like that.

  • 10.25.2012 11:27 AM PDT


Posted by: Footbutt

Posted by: MaxRealflugel
In summary, don't skip Glasslands.


i really should have been more on top of reading these new Halo books....

...but it sounds like its kind of a throwback to anti-colonialism and anti-exceptionalism. i don't know, i haven't ready them, but are they essential for Halo 4?


They say the books are more tied into the games, but I'm not seeing anything in Thursday War which jumps out at me for being "good to know for understanding of halo 4".

Besides the fact ONI told an elite the entire plan and said elite escaped to theorized start the storm.

  • 10.25.2012 11:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cobravert
I just saw a green monkey nut shot a small tan lizard(?) in a gunny sack.

Wolver, I love you, but I will never, ever buy that Parangosky didn't know about the program. If she is everything the books are making her out to be, that woman probably knew every single detail, along with where Noah's Ark is and who killed Kennedy.

  • 10.25.2012 12:59 PM PDT

I just noticed I constantly misspell Glasslands as Grasslands.

  • 10.28.2012 5:08 AM PDT

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