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Subject: Should I Even Bother Finishing Thursday War?
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Gottalovec4
Don't get mad at Traviss because she proposed a unique idea that actually makes sense.

Their justifications of Humanity being liars and over-colonizers doesn't make any sense.


Actually, humanity is overcolonizing. The same reason the forerunners fought us. It is a good reason.

  • 10.27.2012 3:51 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: tjal
Actually, humanity is overcolonizing.

Where is your evidence for this?

Posted by: tjal
The same reason the forerunners fought us. It is a good reason.

From the perspective of a Forerunner General who is a Forerunner Supremacist due to his species and his near fanatical belief in a quasi-religious mythical doctrine, who was not privy to all the facts surrounding the Human incursion into Forerunner space at the time and who also lost all of his children in the subsequent war. I think his views would be a bit twisted from objective reality, don't you? That, and the fact that the Didact did feel some shame for destroying a civilization that only did what it was doing because it was trying to survive utter annihilation from a voracious, all-consuming parasite sweeping through their territories.

If such a fact were true then the Forerunners would not put the keys to the galaxy into the hands of such a belligerent and selfish species in the first place.

  • 10.27.2012 4:30 PM PDT

OH HAI THAR!

Well, I decided to finish the book, and this quote right here

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/HaloGlasslan ds?from=Main.HaloGlasslands


sums up pretty much all my feelings on this book.

  • 10.27.2012 8:50 PM PDT


Posted by: tjal
Actually, humanity is overcolonizing. The same reason the forerunners fought us. It is a good reason.


No, actually they're not, there only about 17 actual colonies, and the majority of those were glassed or otherwise rendered inhospitable during the Human-Covenant War. The reasoning Traviss gave for the Elites feeling pressured is just silly and insane. They have the whole of the Covenant Empire and UNSC space between them as a buffer.

And no, the Forerunners went to war the empire belong to Ancient Humanity because the latter were encroaching onto and trying to conquer Forerunner territory in order to escape the Flood. It wasn't about getting more room to spread, it was about trying to escape the evil, all consuming parasite attacking them.

And honestly, that claim is just silly in general, there's no such thing as "over colonization", unless said colonies are spread so thin that the government they're the colony of can't provide any kind of protection for them at all, otherwise there is no such thing as "over colonization" or anything bad/wrong...it's just a silly argument to make and to try and use as justification for anything. It's like a kid complaining that his friend has more toys than him, rather immature and not a legitimate complaint at all as well as just plain stupid.

  • 10.28.2012 10:09 AM PDT

Friends before pixels.

I've reread almost all the books since Thursday War came out.

I gotta say, I notice MUCH more contradiction in Nylund's books than Traviss's. In FoR, Blue Team discovers Huragok and Mgalekgelo in like 2550 or something on Sigma Octanus IV. Few years later, Blue Team is entirely familiar with them, as if they've experienced them every day for 20 years.

They have no IDEA what Halo was or the Forerunners were in First Strike, then suddenly Halsey's an expert.

Traviss may piss on the edges and details of the Halo Universe, but Bungie and Nylund contradict themselves on a page by page basis.

At least Traviss is consistent. She doesn't just break in and totally change things.

  • 10.28.2012 10:18 AM PDT

Friends before pixels.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: tjal
Actually, humanity is overcolonizing. The same reason the forerunners fought us. It is a good reason.


No, actually they're not, there only about 17 actual colonies, and the majority of those were glassed or otherwise rendered inhospitable during the Human-Covenant War. The reasoning Traviss gave for the Elites feeling pressured is just silly and insane. They have the whole of the Covenant Empire and UNSC space between them as a buffer.

And no, the Forerunners went to war the empire belong to Ancient Humanity because the latter were encroaching onto and trying to conquer Forerunner territory in order to escape the Flood. It wasn't about getting more room to spread, it was about trying to escape the evil, all consuming parasite attacking them.

And honestly, that claim is just silly in general, there's no such thing as "over colonization", unless said colonies are spread so thin that the government they're the colony of can't provide any kind of protection for them at all, otherwise there is no such thing as "over colonization" or anything bad/wrong...it's just a silly argument to make and to try and use as justification for anything. It's like a kid complaining that his friend has more toys than him, rather immature and not a legitimate complaint at all as well as just plain stupid.
There are more than 17.

There are HUNDREDS. The UNSC flag is based off of the original 17 colonies, not ALL colonies.

BTW, more Nylund contradiction thurr.

  • 10.28.2012 10:19 AM PDT


Posted by: tjal

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Gottalovec4
Don't get mad at Traviss because she proposed a unique idea that actually makes sense.

Their justifications of Humanity being liars and over-colonizers doesn't make any sense.


Actually, humanity is overcolonizing. The same reason the forerunners fought us. It is a good reason.


Humanity is overcolonizing...

Says a race that has been space faring for THOUSANDS of years, and just finished wiping the galaxy map clean of nearly all those colonies?

Where the -blam!- does that make sense? It's like Japan conquers all of the USA, leaving a few east coast states and DC intact (before they withdraw).

And Japan is suddenly worried about the USA over-expanding, despite the entire area from the east coast states over being no-man's land and ruined.

whatever happened to all those glassed planets between Earth and the outermost edges of Covenant space?

  • 10.28.2012 11:41 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: tjal

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Gottalovec4
Don't get mad at Traviss because she proposed a unique idea that actually makes sense.

Their justifications of Humanity being liars and over-colonizers doesn't make any sense.


Actually, humanity is overcolonizing. The same reason the forerunners fought us. It is a good reason.


Humanity is overcolonizing...

Says a race that has been space faring for THOUSANDS of years, and just finished wiping the galaxy map clean of nearly all those colonies?

Where the -blam!- does that make sense? It's like Japan conquers all of the USA, leaving a few east coast states and DC intact (before they withdraw).

And Japan is suddenly worried about the USA over-expanding, despite the entire area from the east coast states over being no-man's land and ruined.

whatever happened to all those glassed planets between Earth and the outermost edges of Covenant space?
I think the ELites are thinking WAY too far into the future, but it makes sense they would want to prevent that.

Irrationality is a feature of a sentient being.

  • 10.28.2012 11:45 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: a casual banana
There are more than 17.

There are HUNDREDS. The UNSC flag is based off of the original 17 colonies, not ALL colonies.

BTW, more Nylund contradiction thurr.

This isn't a Nylund contradiction, this is 343i contradiction and a flanderization on Traviss' part.

In 2468 there were 17 colonies. That is a baseline fact of Human space that you cannot worm your way out of, regardless of whether you choose to think that they merely based their flag on the 17 "original colonies". Therefore the idea that there were hundreds more colonies created in the 57 years between Harvest's founding and the beginning of the war is absurd.

If you look at all the canon up until Contact Harvest, and take Staten's word that not all named locations are colonies in the sense of having a large habitation and a permanent, sizeable population, and also bear in mind that there are 57 years to establish a couple more before the war begins, and the number fits reasonably well. After Contact Harvest, things started getting out of hand with the colony list, just like with the Spartan-II roster.

Posted by: Spartan1995324
I think the ELites are thinking WAY too far into the future, but it makes sense they would want to prevent that.

Then they may as well worry about the Grunts overpopulating, or the Brutes, or the Drones, or the Jackals, or any other race. No reason to focus on just Humanity's rebuilding efforts if they are not specifically over-colonizing then.

[Edited on 10.28.2012 11:51 AM PDT]

  • 10.28.2012 11:46 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
I think the ELites are thinking WAY too far into the future, but it makes sense they would want to prevent that.

Then they may as well worry about the Grunts overpopulating, or the Brutes, or the Drones, or the Jackals, or any other race. No reason to focus on just Humanity's rebuilding efforts if they are not specifically over-colonizing then.
Humanity is the only species that lasted so long against the Covenant in a war. We are the most dangerous species in a sense.

They want to kick us while we are down. The Elites have nothing to fear from the other Covenant client species. The Brutes are a thorn in their side, and will continue to be if Halo Evolutions is to be believed. However the Elites are clearly more united against the Brutes and are better tacticians. Perhaps they feel confident they can repel Brute attacks?

Secondly, the Grunts don't really want to go to war, except for the ones who hate humanity as well and therefore will join the Storm. The Drones will mind their own business. The Hunters will join whomever gives me access to space travel (which seems to be the Storm). Jackals are just space pirates who are loyal to money, the Storm may have just hired Jackals. The Prophets have vanished, and there are some Engineers floating around, but the Engineers have never been violent.

The only two species the Elites truly have to watch out for are the Brutes, and the Humans.

However, the Brutes are not the greatest tacticians and fight amongst themselves. They will most likely lose their war against Elites for the same reason the Covenant lost against Humanity: infighting.

Humanity on the other hand survived the Covenant onslaught without being absorbed into it. Not that they could have joined but...even the Jackals and Hunters fell. The Jackals pirating skills were useful but eventually could not withstand the full might of the Covenant. Hunters were monsters at ground engagements but lacked war ships.

Humanity had it all. An air force, an army, and a navy. Something that the other Covenant species (except Elites) could only do together.

And then you have to take into account Humanity's society. It designed to sustain itself, because Humans were alone for the longest time. They had to fend for themselves.

In the Covenant, each species relied on the Prophets for technology and the Elites for military leadership. They forgot how to fend for themselves. The Elites now longer lead an empire's military, and no longer have the Prophets to manage things.

The Elites have to relearn how to have a functioning society again, since not everyone can be warriors. This will take time, and the Elites know it. Humanity doesn't have this problem and therefore can rebuild at a faster rate than the Elites. The Elites have a head start since none of their planets were glassed. However if Humanity grows at a faster rate, then they will eventually surpass the Elites.

This is what the Elites fear. That Humanity will surpass them eventually and seek revenge for all their dead, their planets, their dignity. They know that Humanity is perhaps their only equal in terms of leading a military. However the Elites' disadvantage is that they need to find a way to sustain themselves, and that will take time to figure it out.

Humanity on the other hand can just use their previous system and start rebuilding right away. The Elites feel the need to crush Humanity before it becomes "too late" and they have the strength to get their revenge.

NOTE: When I say "the Elites" I mean the ones that actually want Humanity dead. Sorry about that.

[Edited on 10.28.2012 12:26 PM PDT]

  • 10.28.2012 12:26 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

All fair reasons, but that's not really to do with over-colonization, or even normal expansion, is it? That's just the general idea of revenge that they would have to worry about even if Humanity wasn't considered to be imperialistic. The imperialism aspect though seems to feed their fear that Humanity will strike back one day.

  • 10.28.2012 12:35 PM PDT


Posted by: a casual banana
I've reread almost all the books since Thursday War came out.

I gotta say, I notice MUCH more contradiction in Nylund's books than Traviss's. In FoR, Blue Team discovers Huragok and Mgalekgelo in like 2550 or something on Sigma Octanus IV. Few years later, Blue Team is entirely familiar with them, as if they've experienced them every day for 20 years.

They have no IDEA what Halo was or the Forerunners were in First Strike, then suddenly Halsey's an expert.

Traviss may piss on the edges and details of the Halo Universe, but Bungie and Nylund contradict themselves on a page by page basis.

At least Traviss is consistent. She doesn't just break in and totally change things.


That's Bungie changing things themselves or ordering people to change them. Nylund was the one who made it just Grunts and Jackals that the UNSC was losing against up until 2552, and he was wrong on that from the beginning, Bungie never told him to do that and it was something they fixed in the later books. And the most important fact of all...you have to keep in mind that TFoR was written when no one was expecting Halo to make it big time, at the time it was written it was just a one off game like so many others that don't make it or only get a "small" cult following...that is what causes many of the inconsistencies between TFoR and any other books, the fact that the universe had to grow and it left very, very little room for any growth at all.

Halsey had all of the data from Cortana's findings on Alpha Halo...thus she is as close to an expert as one can possibly get, and in addition humanity was finding Forerunner relics well before they found Alpha Halo. Such as Onyx, the stuff under CASTLE Base...and who knows what else. Halsey also had the artifact under SWORD Base that she was poking around in.

And Traviss is hardly consistent at all. Telcam goes from having absolutely nothing and no Elites who will support him and having to do everything covertly and try to raise support...to instantly having the whole military of the Elites at his grubby little finger-tips and the ability to destroy the Arbiter without any kind of explanation whatsoever. And Kilo-5 as well has to go from doing everything sneakily to keep Hood from finding out what they're trying to do...to Hood knowing almost everything the evil fiends are getting up to, and not doing anything at all to stop them and just lets them get away with being traitors and subverting the active goals of the UNSC/UEG. None of the other books outright contradict themselves like that.

  • 10.28.2012 12:40 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

If you cannot stand it, like I almost couldn't, it would be sufficient to be "up to speed" for Halo 4 if you read a plot synopsis on Halopedia.

  • 10.28.2012 7:59 PM PDT


Posted by: tjal

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Gottalovec4
Don't get mad at Traviss because she proposed a unique idea that actually makes sense.

Their justifications of Humanity being liars and over-colonizers doesn't make any sense.


Actually, humanity is overcolonizing. The same reason the forerunners fought us. It is a good reason.
Yes we are. That's why the covie got lucky with harvest. And that's the reason for the war right?

  • 10.28.2012 8:34 PM PDT
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"I know not what weapons World War III will be fought with, but I do know that World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

-Albert Einstein

I have not read either of them... right now, that seem like a good thing.

  • 10.28.2012 9:35 PM PDT

That was because the Elites really dont have a complete culture like humanity, for quite a while they were simply a warrior class and nothing else. They have to learn how to live as an individual species. There are some cannon errors in the books, and quite a bit of ethical Halsey bashing...but overall it was a decent book, ill read the third one. It was worth it simply for the look into the state of the Elites, it was neglected in the games.

whoops forgot to quote...and I dont use these forms enough to know how to fix that, so that was in response to why dont the elites contact their colonies...it could also be a cannon flaw, I didnt think the UNSC had ftw comms durring the war, or was that just from large stations and warships?

[Edited on 10.29.2012 5:45 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2012 5:43 PM PDT

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