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Subject: Why is there still Sangheili that wants to kill humans?


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Spartan1995324
It doesn't make sense to us. Therefore we are the adult with a brain that can look back and find facts. We can look back into the "facts" (previous canon), and we can find that there are some Elites who want peace with the Humans (e.g. Elite Youth), and not simply a cease fire.

What makes you believe that any of that is still applicable? What if this is just the people at 343i deciding to retcon a piece of the story that they personally do not like? You don't actually have to say things like "All Elites hate Humans" or "That Sangheili Youth fact is no longer canon" in order to retcon it. All you need to do is marginalise it and it will become insignificant, and eventually people will just forget about it. In saying that mostly all of the Elites despise Humanity you are indirectly retconning that youth fact by marginalising it and making it appear to be insignificant and irrelevant, like what that Roberto guy up above tried to do in his post. This is basically what Frankie said.

Every fact you decide to draw attention to surrounding the construction of your fictional universe is important. It helps set the scene and give context to what is happening in a story as broad as Halo's. When it was outlined that there were a growing number of Elite youth, I don't think that was supposed to be taken as a little insignificant fact that can be ignored for all intents and purposes going forwards in the story. If it were insignificant then I'm sure it would have been described as such from the get go, like a fringe sect or something. In saying that mostly all of them hate, you terminate the significance of it and effectively reton it. It's not a strict retcon because you aren't saying that it's no longer canon, but it is effectively one. The Youth still exist, but their impact and role in the story is effectively over and won't be seen or heard from again. When Sanghelios basically turned against Thel because there were Humans on Sanghelios, I'm pretty sure that was KT way of telling people who hold this criticism to "deal with it". They either don't exist, or are utterly impotent. (Which kinda flies in the face of the "growing" descriptor.)

Besides, with the caricaturization of Humanity, and the retconning of the Elite's cultural views, Human sympathizers don't even make any sense in the new canon.
Not sure but a few posts back I said that I thought the majority of Elites should be neutral, not haters... If by "you" you mean me. If you meant "you" in a general sense, then ignore.

Alas, only time will really tell. We'll see if Travis decides to explore viewpoints other.

  • 10.27.2012 4:49 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Only the first "you" in that post is referring to you personally. The rest are general.

  • 10.27.2012 4:57 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Only the first "you" in that post is referring to you personally. The rest are general.
I see.

If the Halo games fail to mention these human sympathziers, then I will have to believe that they are no longer important at all in any way what so ever. They would become so unimportant that they might as well not exist.

Unless another series of books presents a different view point.

  • 10.27.2012 5:06 PM PDT


Posted by: tjal
On a side note: Travis did actually say that most of the keeps were neutral, hence the almost defeat of the arbiter...

This proves the larger "no-care" group who just follow the elite with the most power.


Actually, I recall the statement was more like "A lot of the keeps are holding their ships back and letting the two hardcore groups duke it out, and then they'd support whoever won.

So it can be a "Meh, who cares?" or a "Well... what if I commit all my forces, and my side loses? I'd be defenseless!"

[Edited on 10.27.2012 7:18 PM PDT]

  • 10.27.2012 7:02 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1995324
But it is. 343 said so.

To add onto that, you are commiting the same error she is. You are presenting the Elites as a hive mind with a small minority on the side. Except you reversed the viewpoints. Travis has a VERY small minority that likes humans, and a have a majority that hates them. You have the opposite.

I think, in a hypothetically "real" situation, the majority Elites really wouldn't care. There would minority sympathizes and haters. However the majority could care less because they have to rebuild their society. Only the Elites IN the Covenant came to see the admirable qualities of Humans. Elites on the home world probably didn't care at all what happened to them. Domestic problems should be, and would be, their first concern. They have to get their society rebuilt in order to sustain themselves.

Foreign problems are another story. Don't forget that the war with the Brutes continues onwards (Halo Evolutions) so that should also be a concern, not starting another war. The Sangheili in the Kilo Five trilogy clearly state that they want peace with the humans ONLY to rebuild their strength. In other words, they only want a cease fire. Regardless the majority of Elites shouldn't be all haters or sympathizers.

On top of that, Humanity went ahead and messed up... as usual. ONI is attempting to start a civil war on Sangheilos to keep the Elites in a fractured and weakened state. Not good for diplomatic relations.


I'm not going to discuss canon with you as neither one of us is going to budge on that issue and it will just be a complete waste of time to both of us.

When did I ever say "every single one", if you'll actually go back and read my post, you'll see that I go on to talk about "majority" and "minority". Unless someone changed the definition of the word "majority" and didn't tell anyone, it does not mean, and has never meant, every single one of something. I am not presenting anything as a hive-mind at all.

All of the Elites were in the Covenant...if you meant the military then what you said is true :P But all of the Elites were within the Covenant. And actually considering how the majority of the Elites considered adults and of age are soldiers on the frontlines and in the military, pretty much the whole species would fall into the military aspect of your scenario. And actually the part about any not currently serving actively in the military at that time is wrong as Bungie made mention of a very large, and growing, number of the Elite youth being human sympathizers...so obviously they knew enough about humans to form an opinion of them.

In Glasslands Trilogy they're still all haters, doesn't matter if they want peace at the moment or not...they only want it so they can have strength to finish humans off and start fighting again later. And ONI is not at all representative, and never has been, of humanity. They are the problem, not the UNSC or humanity in general, just ONI and ONI alone...and really it's just Parangosky and her toadies/minions/flunkies, ONI the organization itself is only a problem so long as the retarded hag or any of her inner circle are leading it. Parangosky is a rogue agent and isn't acting on orders at all or in any official capacity, she's doing what she wants to do and saying "-blam!- the chain of command and all consequences, my word is law and all that matters and no one else's!"

  • 10.28.2012 3:53 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
When did I ever say "every single one", if you'll actually go back and read my post, you'll see that I go on to talk about "majority" and "minority". Unless someone changed the definition of the word "majority" and didn't tell anyone, it does not mean, and has never meant, every single one of something. I am not presenting anything as a hive-mind at all.
Travis never says "every single one" either...
Posted by: OrderedComa
All of the Elites were in the Covenant...if you meant the military then what you said is true :P But all of the Elites were within the Covenant. And actually considering how the majority of the Elites considered adults and of age are soldiers on the frontlines and in the military, pretty much the whole species would fall into the military aspect of your scenario. And actually the part about any not currently serving actively in the military at that time is wrong as Bungie made mention of a very large, and growing, number of the Elite youth being human sympathizers...so obviously they knew enough about humans to form an opinion of them.
Yeah I meant military, my bad. Women and young children are obviously not in the military though. Not all Elites are in the military. And I didn't make any major mention of the Elite youth. Anyways, they would have spent less time killing humans, and by the time he joined there was probably more questioning of the Prophet's orders. So yes, I think they could formed an opinion. Not sure how that connects to what I said...
Posted by: OrderedComa
In Glasslands Trilogy they're still all haters, doesn't matter if they want peace at the moment or not...they only want it so they can have strength to finish humans off and start fighting again later.
Only the majority. Remember how the majority doesn't mean all?
Posted by: OrderedComa
And ONI is not at all representative, and never has been, of humanity. They are the problem, not the UNSC or humanity in general, just ONI and ONI alone...and really it's just Parangosky and her toadies/minions/flunkies, ONI the organization itself is only a problem so long as the retarded hag or any of her inner circle are leading it. Parangosky is a rogue agent and isn't acting on orders at all or in any official capacity, she's doing what she wants to do and saying "-blam!- the chain of command and all consequences, my word is law and all that matters and no one else's!"
-blam!- THE POLICE! Lol.

Anyways, ONI is part of the UNSC right? So if the UNSC is the parent, and ONI is a disobedient child, then it is VERY much still the UNSC's problem when it comes to ONI. Sure ONI gets punished, but the UNSC takes the blame as well.

Besides, ONI is very representative of the human nature. We want to survive as a species so we do whatever it takes. Survival of the fittest. Sabatoge has also been around for years. It's been ingrained in us to try and weaken the enemy, so what ONI is doing is nothing out of the ordinary.

  • 10.28.2012 4:50 PM PDT

This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends;
Not with a bang but a whimper.

It's "are" not "is." And I honestly do not have the slightest idea. I am interested to see how 343i justifies this.

  • 10.28.2012 5:03 PM PDT

"When you say mean things, your weenie will shrink."

-Marshall Mathers, 2004

Lets get this straight, not all elites hate humans. Its sort of a cold war going on between them. I think I read in a bulletin somewhere that when requiem was discovered, the covenant somehow came together again, thinking there religion, was in fact, truth.

I put a lot of commas in that sentence...

  • 10.28.2012 6:12 PM PDT


Posted by: SCORCHHEAD
Lets get this straight, not all elites hate humans. Its sort of a cold war going on between them. I think I read in a bulletin somewhere that when requiem was discovered, the covenant somehow came together again, thinking there religion, was in fact, truth.

I put a lot of commas in that sentence...


Some of the Elites reformed a "new" Covenant called The Storm, with client races such as Grunts, Hunters and Jackals. Their goal was to unlock Requiem's secrets and awaken the Didact.

  • 10.28.2012 6:28 PM PDT

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