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Subject: Do You Feel Karen should be replaced by another Author?

Re-read Glasslands and noticed there's pretty concrete evidence given to show Halsey came up with and carried out the initial stages of the Spartan II project herself.

"Halsey selects the first candidates for the Spartan program, which was all her idea, naturally."

"She abducts these exceptional children, replaces them with flash-clones that seem to convince the parents, but then they develop terrible cloning-related health problems and die. Isn't that considerate? Anyway, she's breaking every statute on the book by using clones for those purposes, but she gets one of her AIs to cover her tracks in the budget."

"Just thinking that reminded [Mendez] what Halsey had done with cloning, and it was another rebuke about those things he'd turned a blind eye to when he should have turned her in instead."

"She has [Keyes] reassigned when he begins to work out what she's doing."

There, it's pretty obvious Halsey was covering up at the very least the abductions and cloning, hence why she's using an AI to cover her tracks in the budget. I stand by my claim that Parangosky had no idea what Halsey was doing until the damage was done and the only course left was to go ahead with the project.

There's nothing in any of Nylund's books to say Parangosky or ONI's upper ranks knew about it, and yes, I've gone back and read The Fall of Reach to confirm this.

"Why send a shuttle, rather than a prowler or corvette? And why just the two of us?"

No ONI prowler given to them, if it was all done by the books I'm sure they'd be given more than a shuttle. And only Keyes and Halsey are on board - notice how ONI officers aren't pacing around the decks. They didn't know.

"You are here because Vice Admiral Stanforth refused to lend me this shuttle without at least one UNSC officer aboard."

She asks Stanforth for the shuttle, and doesn't tell him what it's for. Stanforth doesn't entirely trust her and tells her an officer must be aboard (this alone says everything; if ONI knew about the abductions, surely the head of Section 3 would. But Stanforth says a UNSC officer must be aboard, which means he doesn't know what Halsey's doing and so wants an officer watching over) - she picks Keyes because he can keep a secret, and isn't likely to betray her before things are too far along. Could also be why she enters a romantic relationship with Keyes - to create a personal attachment between them, so Keyes wasn't likely to go off and report her to Stanforth/other ONI officers.

Halsey did all the abducting of the children and replacing of them with clones by herself/with very limited support. She covered her tracks from ONI with an AI, made sure Keyes wouldn't talk by entering an intimate relationship with him, and only after the clones were in place did she let ONI know of her plans. At this point, ONI couldn't simply give the children back and they too were worried about the Carver Findings, and so reluctantly allowed her to continue with her plans, giving her facilities on Reach and trainers.

But Parangosky didn't know about the S-II project until all the children were acquired, nor did any other big players in ONI. Her motivations in the K5 trilogy are completely justified, as are her opinions of Halsey.

  • 11.03.2012 8:43 AM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
Praisers are going to praise.

The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

Posted by: WolverfrogIf it wasn't apparent during the actual events, depicted as they were when they first were written about in the previous books, how would one know that Glasslands isn't simply adding facts in order to describe and depict things in a new way, in its own way?
There's nothing in any of Nylund's books to say Parangosky or ONI's upper ranks knew about it, and yes, I've gone back and read The Fall of Reach to confirm this.It's convenient isn't it? If that was the truth then, why have us believe otherwise, why skew the facts, why tell it from a biased perspective. The last one may very well be because Halo as a fiction is about portraying the good guys as good and the bad as bad. When has it ever been an in-depth, super profound character study?

If it is a story about how a Dr Halsey broke and manipulated the chain of command for her own reasons.. whatever it is she wants, wouldn't the story have told exactly that, unequivocally?

Yes it is Mary Sue'ing, but that was always the point, it's the fictions style, it's a simple action-adventure with a handfull of deep themes. Johnson's the smooth-talking badass, John's the quite protagonist, Cortana's the sarcastic smart-ass, etc, etc. They are stereotypes (some of them arguably archetypes), a specific set of them. It's lighthearted, just like Star Wars.

Digression: my point was: there are ways of changing all that without breaking the obvious canon (retconning); without tampering with apparent things such as dates, numbers, locations, etc, but with that which is harder to see. In order to twist things around, a lot more sneakyness is required. That is what I say is going on.

If someone in Glasslands is described in a different way than previously, it is so for the sake of what Glasslands may be able to offer, not to enrich the previous novels, and with that the preconceptions that are known and loved by those who followed the series.

Good to see someone who actually takes time to go back and read the books though, so nice job! :D

[Edited on 11.03.2012 9:38 AM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 9:13 AM PDT

As Janaka (I think) said, If this was Halsey's pet project, then why does ALL other lore say it was not?

Like the tropes page says "Glasslands says that it's all Halsey's project of curiosity. The previous lore says that it was funded by ONI in all parts, and Halsey did it with a legit fear of humanity destroying itself without the Spartans coming to play."

As for Fall of Reach. Halsey was going to handpick the 75 who would be chosen for the project. Which is less outrageous(or obvious) to see dock in the spaceport? A slipspace capable shuttle, or a UNSC corvette/prowler/pelican?

Remember, she had the "cover" of being a parent interested in checking out schools in that case. Cover would be MAJORLY blown if she went back to the spaceport and climbed into a pelican with ONI/UNSC markings. Or the ONI prowler. or the UNSC corvette.


In 2517, seven weeks out of the OCS, Lieutenant (J.G.) Keyes was assigned to the UNSC Magellan when those orders were rescinded and he was chosen to assist Dr. Catherine Halsey with her task of searching for usable subjects for her SPARTAN-II project. Keyes was chosen by Halsey for this assignment partly because he could "keep a secret". In order to fool anybody who was suspicious, they told them that they were looking for a school for their daughter, and so they both began observing the chosen subjects for the program. The first child they chose was SPARTAN subject number 117: John.

In 2517, he refused to allow Dr. Halsey to use the diplomatic shuttle Han on her study for the SPARTAN-II candidates unless she had a military escort. Halsey chose then-Junior-Grade Lieutenant Jacob Keyes for the assignment.

Really, it looks more like he went "Halsey, have somebody from the UNSC alongside you since the Han has zero defensive abilities and rebels might board."

[Edited on 11.03.2012 10:03 AM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 9:59 AM PDT

I'm not saying Nylund planned to vilify Halsey, not by any means. Nor even that he planned for her to have orchestrated the Spartan II project alone. I write myself and when doing so, I only have the loosest framework in mind - a beginning, a rough idea of a middle and then a tentative end. Everything else is made up as I go along.

I doubt Nylund had anything more than a rough sketch for how First Strike would go down when he wrote The Fall of Reach (he didn't know if the book would be successful after all) and he wouldn't have even conceptualised Ghosts of Onyx.

At the time of writing The Fall of Reach, he probably intended for the SII project to be backed by ONI. The Shuttle was probably because it's less conspicuous, and he probably put the stuff in about Keyes keeping a secret so he wouldn't tell regular UNSC.

Now, it bears relevance to the K5 trilogy and thus its meaning is changed. It can be interpreted to mean something different, and there's nothing contradictory.

Often in writing, you look back at earlier work and realise your own wording offers the potential for a later twist. Usually it's pure coincidence.

I will say the tropes page is wrong - The Fall of Reach mentions nothing about the abductions being funded by ONI, and even makes it clear that Halsey's covering the tracks she makes in the budget with her own AI. It also mentions nothing about Keyes being chosen because it was required that the Han have a military escort - it just says Stanforth wanted a UNSC Officer on there.

If he wanted Halsey escorted by someone who could fight, he'd send marines or ODSTs. Not a naval Lieutenant with minimal combat training. If that's the Encyclopaedia, sounds like it's wrong again, as it often is.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 10:07 AM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 10:00 AM PDT

Another thing to keep in mind wolver is this.

In Ghosts of Onyx, Ackerson hands Parangosky a briefing packet on the S2's. containing all the data including flash clones. Parangosky is not angry, surprised, or shocked at any of it.

Her response is, essentially, "Yes. I already know all this - and, if you're planning to suggest shutting the Spartans down again, Colonel, don't."
^ as somebody from another forum said.

  • 11.03.2012 11:32 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Another thing to keep in mind wolver is this.

In Ghosts of Onyx, Ackerson hands Parangosky a briefing packet on the S2's. containing all the data including flash clones. Parangosky is not angry, surprised, or shocked at any of it.

Her response is, essentially, "Yes. I already know all this - and, if you're planning to suggest shutting the Spartans down again, Colonel, don't."
^ as somebody from another forum said.


Oh, I'm not saying she didn't know by that time. I think she found out very soon after the children were abducted. By that time, it was too far along to go back - the clones were already in place, showing signs of terminal illness; if the kids were swapped back and were suddenly in perfect health again, there would be a traceable pattern which could be followed back to the source and end up landing ONI at Nuremburg, to coin a Travissism.

It's just something I noticed which addresses a problem a lot of people have with the K5 books.

  • 11.03.2012 12:06 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Fall of Reach (an 11 year old book) might say nothing on it. But Halsey's journal does.

Carver's reports on the colonies srely led me here; that scarcely begins to tell the story.
"And so I begin... to learn whether humanity can be saved from itself, and the role I will play in its uncertain destiny.

It was clear from this that Halsey did not develop the Spartan II's purely for some sort of "mad scientist" curiosity. Right from the beginning, they had purpose.

The Office of Naval Intelligence had apparently had their eye on me for years and knew that the only way to convince me to join them was to get ME to convince me.

It worked. I joined.


After re-running Carver's model with her own callculations, Halsey arrived at the conclusion that the Outer Colonies would rebel very soon, and that the outcome would be worse. When she took this to the "Vice Admiral" (assumed to be Parangosky, as it's dealing with ONI,) they already knew. Right from the beginning, ONI was aware of the problem, and had the solution. All they needed was a scientist to make it happen. She was set to improve upon the ORION project.

As we read, as early as September 8th, 2511 Halsey was planning to flash-clone the children. That six years before it had been carried out. There is no way, with Parangosky funding and leading this project, that she would not have known.

I've informed the vice admiral that we are initiating the next phase of the project: candidate procurement.

Halsey was keeping Parangosky updated.

July 21, 2517
Since I can't personally screen every candidate from the Outer Colonies within a reasonable time frame, I'm delegating much of this responsibility to my team, while I will process candidates in Sector 4. ONI has provided me with a diplomatic shuttle, the Han, along with a dedicated AI, Toran, and my young lieutenant to pilot the craft and act as an attache ("babysitter" comes to mind).


Here we see that Halsey did not conduct the conscription process alone. She had a team of ONI agents. ONI gave her a crew, gave her the ship, an AI that would have surely kept tabs on them, and gave her a soldier to pilot the craft - though I think at this point Halsey may have underlined "my" to emphasis that Keyes was her own choosing, though a requirement. Foreshadowing their relationship, of course.

As we see in her notes from September 15th, Kelly eluded capture for six hours. Retrieval Team Gamma reports this. Later "they" implement new retrieval protocols (going in at night.) So it's clear that Halsey did not abduct and replace the kids alone (as we see from the Scanned trailer, in which ONI operatives do the work,) but that there were entire teams dedicated to it. With other individuals who are ONI operatives, not just civilian experts, there is no way that Parangosky would have not known about this before and during the events.

After months together, Jacob and I parted company. Amicably, I think.

He's a brilliant thinker and superb tactician; he's also a decent man. Because he is all those things, I feel he was beginning to suspect there is more to our excursions to meet candidates than mere field observations.

His intuition serves him well.

For his protection and the protection of the program, I requested that he be reassigned.


Yes, Halsey had Keyes reassigned to protect the project because he had begun to "get wise." However notice how she points out his decency, and puts his protection before that of the project? She genuinely cared about him, and knew the nature of the Spartan II project would destroy him.

This Lieutenant Keyes seems curious, intelligent, and also, so far, adept at keeping his mouth shut--a rare combination of traits.

I haven't decided whether to recommend him for permanent reassignment to my staff. I'm not sure he has the long-range vision required to overcome the moral ambiguities of our mission.


As for Mendez, at this point in the game, he wasn't introduced to the Spartan II program. He would have had no clue of the clones, because he didn't need to know about the clones. He just had to train kids. That is all that should have ever plagued him, and it would have been if Traviss did her homework.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 12:26 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 12:24 PM PDT

Hmm, interesting. I haven't read Halsey's Journal since Reach came out (it got ruined in the rain; apparently surviving a glassing doesn't mean it can handle a bit of water) so I hope you'll forgive me.

ONI did give her the Han; Vice Admiral Stanforth (who I'm certain is the Vice Admiral referred to, not Parangosky) was Section III until 2530. But the Journal makes it pretty clear he knew.

My only suggestion is that Stanforth approved all the Spartan-II project without conferring with Parangosky first, something she's bitter over, and now that Stanforth's dead, she knows Halsey can't hide behind him.

That's the only explanation left, really.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 12:47 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 12:45 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

There's no way that Stanforth would have been able to hide anything from Parangosky, or have done anything without okaying it with her. She's the Commander in Chief of ONI, meaning she's like the President of the US. If anyone kept anything from her, she would know, and it would be treason. I find it very hard to believe that for near fifty years things were hidden from the most feared and informed woman in the UNSC.

  • 11.03.2012 12:55 PM PDT


Posted by: jack0fhearts
There's no way that Stanforth would have been able to hide anything from Parangosky, or have done anything without okaying it with her. She's the Commander in Chief of ONI, meaning she's like the President of the US. If anyone kept anything from her, she would know, and it would be treason. I find it very hard to believe that for near fifty years things were hidden from the most feared and informed woman in the UNSC.



Didn't say that, obviously by 2531 at least she knows. I'm saying Stanforth approved the initial stages of the project. He was a Vice Admiral, so was Parangosky at the time.

They're both of the same rank. She may technically be head of ONI (but she's not 'Commander in Chief' nor is she anything like a President), but she couldn't give him a military command and him not telling her about the Spartan II project at first wouldn't be treason.

Are we sure Parangosky was even head of ONI before we first meet her in 2531? That's a year after Stanforth resigns - seems likely to me he was the head of ONI, then resigned, and so Parangosky assumed the his role much in the way Osman will after she's gone.

With Halsey using her AI to cover the budget, I don't see why Parangosky would immediately know - whatever AI she had before BB wouldn't have been able to match something created by Halsey - she makes it clear that ONI security is a joke to her in Nylund's trilogy.

It's perfectly plausible that Stanforth orchestrated the 'candidate procurement' and established the training facilities on Reach without consulting Parangosky.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 1:05 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 1:01 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Parangosky is Commander in Chief of ONI, that's what CINCONI stands for. All projects may have been headed by other people, but she greenlit and oversaw them all. She would have quite honestly known everything.

Where is it ever mentioned that Halsey dodged the budget outside of Glasslands? Especially considering that Cortana did not even come into conception until well after the Spartans were being trained and armed. Cortana began service in 2549. Before this, Halsey would have had no AI with capabilities to do such a task at the time.

  • 11.03.2012 1:10 PM PDT


Posted by: jack0fhearts
Where is it ever mentioned that Halsey dodged the budget outside of Glasslands? Especially considering that Cortana did not even come into conception until well after the Spartans were being trained and armed. Cortana began service in 2549. Before this, Halsey would have had no AI with capabilities to do such a task at the time.


She's always had AIs. Deja, Kalmiya, Jerrod. She was the person in charge of programming for all smart AIs.

  • 11.03.2012 1:17 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Deja is a dumb AI. Not capable of hacking systems or erasing budgets at all.

Kalmiya began service around 2537*, well after the Spartan II project was funded, completed, and the Spartans given MJOLNIR. Kalmiya could not have fudged numbers.

Jerrod was an experimental "Micro AI." He's mentioned as being in service in 2552, which means he's either a Dumb AI technically, or he's a Smart AI, but would not possibly have been in service during the initiation of the Spartan II program - when funds would have been shifted.

Halsey also oversaw the programming for Smart AI, being an expert in the field. Being a civilian, however, she was in charge of nothing.

-------------

*So far as I could find. Odd, if she was still around in 2552, the given date for her destruction, that would mean that she was more than rampant. Either that, or her service date began at 2545

[Edited on 11.03.2012 1:25 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 1:23 PM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
Praisers are going to praise.

The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaronYupp, Janaka that's my name.
Posted by: jack0fhearts Weird, I just re-read A.I part of her journal a couple of hours ago, didn't occur to me that there might have been something on this particular topic...

Also, now that you mention it, exacly what was Jerrod (smart, dumb, pocket-size dumb, other), anyone?
Posted by: Wolverfrog
Now, it bears relevance to the K5 trilogy and thus its meaning is changed. It can be interpreted to mean something different, and there's nothing contradictory.
True, but isn't that what bothers some of the fans? It's not directly contradictory, but it messes with expectations. It's like finding out that Winnie the Pooh actually was a manipulative drug addict. Dumb comparison, but you get what I mean; the context is there.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 1:58 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 1:43 PM PDT


Posted by: the real Janaka
True, but isn't that what bothers some of the fans? It's not directly contradictory, but it messes with expectations.


By that logic, there should be dozens of threats screaming bloody murder at Greg Bear for his rendering of the Forerunners.

"I thought humanity were Forerunners, everything in the trilogy and books before 343i alludes to this!" "The Forerunners are too nasty! In the trilogy we were led to believe they were a benevolent race who watched over the galaxy!" "15 feet tall? GTFO, Bear!"

Etc, etc. It's not the subversion of expectation that makes people mad, it's that they think it breaks canon and goes out of character.

It doesn't, but the explanations for the 'changes' aren't as obvious as they are in the Forerunner trilogy. A fault of Traviss', she should have made it clear that Parangosky wasn't involved in the S2 project and so on.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Deja is a dumb AI. Not capable of hacking systems or erasing budgets at all.

Kalmiya began service around 2537, well after the Spartan II project was funded, completed, and the Spartans given MJOLNIR. Kalmiya could not have fudged numbers.


I was showing that she's had AIs for a long time, every time we've seen her in the novels (although Jerrod mysteriously vanishes in K5, one thing I have a problem with). She was the creator of the third-generation of Smart AIs - do you honestly think she didn't have one until she joined ONI?

Come on. There's nothing to say she didn't, and a line in Glasslands that says she did. Why is there a debate here? Are we going to debate the existence of Professor Phillips because there's no mention of him before K5?

  • 11.03.2012 2:01 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: Wolverfrog
By that logic, there should be dozens of threats screaming bloody murder at Greg Bear for his rendering of the Forerunners.


It was mentioned again in Primordium that some still believe the Forerunners and humans (pre-historic at that time, but especially modern,) to be one in the same. It's still a valid theory.

I was showing that she's had AIs for a long time, every time we've seen her in the novels (although Jerrod mysteriously vanishes in K5, one thing I have a problem with). She was the creator of the third-generation of Smart AIs - do you honestly think she didn't have one until she joined ONI?

Yes, I do. She didn't really have AI's for a long time. Deja was assigned to her, but was still a UNSC AI in charge of the Spartan training facility. She wasn't actually "Halsey's."

By all dates given, Kalmiya, Jerrod, and Cortana would have existed around the same time. Halsey had many AI's, but not over a large span of time.Prior to working for ONI, Halsey was a civilian. While brilliant, she would not have likely been able to fund an AI capable of "covering her tracks" in such a thorough manner.

Come on. There's nothing to say she didn't, and a line in Glasslands that says she did. Why is there a debate here?

Hinted at above. Halsey may very well have had a dumb AI. But not one powerful enough to erase massive funds and operations from the eyes of ONI. Halsey was not that powerful. She oversaw a lot, but did very little independently. Even if she created or designed the Gen-3 Smart AI, all of them created were done so with ONI and UNSC approval and oversight; she didn't make them in a private lab (with the exception of Halsey.)

The claims in Glasslands make no canonical sense.

  • 11.03.2012 2:12 PM PDT


Posted by: jack0fhearts
Hinted at above. Halsey may very well have had a dumb AI. But not one powerful enough to erase massive funds and operations from the eyes of ONI. Halsey was not that powerful. She oversaw a lot, but did very little independently. Even if she created or designed the Gen-3 Smart AI, all of them created were done so with ONI and UNSC approval and oversight; she didn't make them in a private lab (with the exception of Halsey.)


Conjecture, and shaky at best.

Not enough to say a direct quote is breaking canon. You're arguing for argument's sake, and my point is still valid. Parangosky didn't know about the S2 project when it was started.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 2:37 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 2:36 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Conjecture, and shaky at best.

Not enough to say a direct quote is breaking canon. You're arguing for argument's sake, and my point is still valid. Parangosky didn't know about the S2 project when it was started.


So then why is she upset about it when she greenlit a project just as bad yet seems to have no qualms about it, ie the Spartan-IIIs. And even then, her not knowing is pretty odd considering we know agents who did not want to participate in the kidnappings were killed, Halsey doesn't have the authority to order that kind of purge.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 2:42 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 2:41 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Yes, Parangosky did know about the project. As head of ONI, she initiated it, only under the name "ORION Gen II."

There is nothing that gives Halsey any capability to hide anything from Parangosky at all. I'm sorry, I'm not arguing for sake of arguing, but because I view this as a legitimate problem inherant to Glasslands. It introduces some good things, but when it comes to the case of Halsey, Traviss dropped the ball and kicked it five miles away, and all evidently because Traviss personally disagrees with the motives and such. It's poor writing.

  • 11.03.2012 2:51 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Wolverfrog
Conjecture, and shaky at best.

Not enough to say a direct quote is breaking canon. You're arguing for argument's sake, and my point is still valid. Parangosky didn't know about the S2 project when it was started.


So then why is she upset about it when she greenlit a project just as bad yet seems to have no qualms about it, ie the Spartan-IIIs. And even then, her not knowing is pretty odd considering we know agents who did not want to participate in the kidnappings were killed, Halsey doesn't have the authority to order that kind of purge.


*In before somebody claims that's another black mark proving Halsey is evil*.

  • 11.03.2012 3:01 PM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
Praisers are going to praise.

The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
By that logic, there should be dozens of threats screaming bloody murder at Greg Bear for his rendering of the Forerunners.

"I thought humanity were Forerunners, everything in the trilogy and books before 343i alludes to this!"

"The Forerunners are too nasty! In the trilogy we were led to believe they were a benevolent race who watched over the galaxy!" "15 feet tall? GTFO, Bear!"
I can't talk for everyone, but I personally never thought this. There are several things that point to them as rather dodgy demi-gods, such as:
- Possibly robbing someone of free will (luck, now Geas).
- The decision that it was ok to exterminate all life in the entire galaxy only so that their view/way/type of life could go on. If the Flood managed to kill and consume everyone (Everyone! Gary Oldman style), that too would have been a way of life. Like the Gravemind said: "Do I take life or give it? Who is victim, and who is foe?". He is villainous, yes, and he'd do anything for his cause, but in the end, what is worse, no life at all, or some type of life? (In this case it was what the Forerunners chose to reseed). It's just a more complicated survival of the fittest.
- Them being hypocritical about their own Mantle.
- Them disappearing without guaranteeing that the galaxy was safe.

They were dodgy alright.
It doesn't, but the explanations for the 'changes' aren't as obvious as they are in the Forerunner trilogy.Exactly, Bear stayed within the boundaries, style. Even though he thouroughly described two major civilisations, one of which we did not know even existed before, he managed to do so without stepping too hard on the feet of preconception and expectation. It's an addition that one may or may not like, but it isn't a blatant change of something/someone that was very well defined. The Forerunner weren't very well defined, so I guess many fans--me included--were more comfortable with the new information, since most of it didn't so much overlap--and obscure what was below--as it did cover new ground.
EDIT: in other words, he respected Halo for what it was; diddn't try to twist it to his style (other than type of language, structure, way of describing, etc).

Some things I won't forgive however, but that's another thread.

[Edited on 11.03.2012 3:25 PM PDT]

  • 11.03.2012 3:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: jack0fhearts
Yes, Parangosky did know about the project. As head of ONI, she initiated it, only under the name "ORION Gen II."

There is nothing that gives Halsey any capability to hide anything from Parangosky at all. I'm sorry, I'm not arguing for sake of arguing, but because I view this as a legitimate problem inherant to Glasslands. It introduces some good things, but when it comes to the case of Halsey, Traviss dropped the ball and kicked it five miles away, and all evidently because Traviss personally disagrees with the motives and such. It's poor writing.


I don't have the book on hand currently but the wiki says that Parangosky wasn't a vice admiral until 2531. After Stanforth supposedly resigned as head of Section III. So if it's true Stanforth likely wouldn't of had to inform Parangosky.

Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, page 44

Is it stated anywhere what date Parangosky became Commander-in-Chief of ONI?

  • 11.03.2012 4:36 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

If that's the case, then Parangosky has absolutely no grounds to persecute Halsey for the Spartan program; certainly not her gripe about the clones. By 2531, the clones had been old news by fourteen years. Parangosky would not have needed to know, if at the time Stanforth was heading the operation and funding everything.

Even if Parangosky is exacting some self-righteous revenge on Halsey because Stanforth is dead, as Wolverfrog suggested, she is doing so illegally, and we still run into canonical errors with Traviss' version.

  • 11.03.2012 5:07 PM PDT

"Opinion is like a pendulum and obeys the same law. If it goes past the centre of gravity on one side, it must go a like distance on the other; and it is only after a certain time that it finds the true point at which it can remain at rest."
-Arthur Schopenhauer

Nylund's books were the strongest in the series by far; you people must have holes in your heads.

His stuff was taken straight from the Halo bible. The ship to ship fights were wonderfully illustrated. And he even had enough nuance to show Halsey for the despicable coward she was without shoving any particular interpretation down our throats.

Bring back Eric. The other books I wouldn't use to hold up my piano.

  • 11.04.2012 2:07 AM PDT

Posted by: Wolverfrog

It was just Halsey and Keyes on the Han because two people are not going to draw the attention coming into port and then going to see a school that a kid later vanishes from that an ONI Prowler or military crew would. And there were people subtly observing and collecting data on the various prospective subjects. Halsey wasn't doing it alone, what she was doing however was going to and personally observing and talking to the subjects that others had tagged as potentials for her. ONI fully knew from the start that they were going to have to be kidnapping kids, that was something they were planning on doing themselves even before Halsey agreed to head up their project. And Admiral Stanforth trusts Halsey completely, the reason he insisted on her having military escort is because of the area she was going into...the Outer Colonies, you know the place(s) completely overrun by the Insurrection, not somewhere you want to run the risk of your personnel getting captured or killed. That is why Halsey had to have military escort. Not because Stanforth didn't trust Halsey or think she was up to something, but because she needed protection against possible Insurrectionist or pirate threats. Absolutely EVERYTHING has always made it quite clear and said that the Spartan II project was ONI's plan all along and that they went to Halsey in order to recruit her to head up the project. Glassland and Karen Travissty's bull-blam!- is the only exception, and it's not accurate or true to canon because Travissty did not do the damn research. Even the Scanned trailer shows Traviss views as wrong, it shows ONI agents replacing the kids with the flashclones, Halsey isn't even present in the scene...so no, your assumption that the project was all her doing and something she'd thought up and started on her own is in very large error.

And even if Parangosky wasn't the current head of ONI at the time, she has no right to -blam!- and piss and moan about anything Halsey did under ONI supervision...especially not as the UNSC itself was in on the creation of the Spartan II project as well. Everyone else pretty much summed up everything I could say, so it'd be beating a dead horse for me to repeat it as well, in any case, ONI initiated the Spartan II Program on their own without Halsey, and they went to her trying to recruit her because of her expertise in the subject of genetics...and she initially didn't want to have anything to do with it. The Cerver Findings are what finally convinced her to jump on board and agree to take the position of leading the program that ONI had in mind...Spartan II, the successor to the less than stellar for their goals, ORION Project.

  • 11.05.2012 8:31 PM PDT