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Subject: Do You Feel Karen should be replaced by another Author?

RussianSpartan, Ninjakenzin, PlasmaPrestige, and all of the usual suspects have got everything absolutely right. They nailed exactly why Glasslands Trilogy is an awful mess when it comes to the rest of the Halo lore, story and universe.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Veiwpoints and Forcing


Whether someone accepts the views being presented or not, it still doesn't change whether it's forcing readers to think one way and forcing their views onto everyone. If I wrote a Halo book where the UNSC were treated as outright being evil and the Covenant are the good guys, and nothing to say otherwise is at all presented...that's still forcing my point of view onto readers, even if they know otherwise. Traviss isn't simply presenting another point of view (otherwise she'd actually have people putting up effort to support Halsey or stand against her sermon preaching self-inserts), the other side simply doesn't completely vanish and have no mentions or appearances when changing to a different perspective.

Yes, actually, Traviss, or any writer, does need to include at least a token of the other perspective in order to keep things balanced within the story. Nylund's novels gave us Colonel Ackerson, we saw why he didn't like Halsey and countering the other views we had...fiction needs balances or the characters and story just gets flat and boring. You can't just provide the persepctives of the main character and treat them as fact, you need to show other ways to view people. Like in Harry Potter for instance, from Harry's perspective, Draco is viewed as completely evil for pretty much the entire series (as well as the other Malfoys, though there's more grounds for them to be viewed that way) and Snape is viewed very negatively as well, but we're presented with other ways to view them either through someone else's memories in the pensieve, or any number of other situations. We learn that Harry's perceptions of the people around him aren't entirely accurate or the truth....that is not something we get from Traviss when it comes to Halsey, it's all "Halsey's evil, hate her" all the time and nothing else.

I don't think anyone is saying that the opposing view needs to have a point of view character...all that needs doing is talking about these groups or mentioning how widespread they are, or even having minor characters who show these opinions that Traviss has Telcam, or more likely Jul, interact with freqently. But she has the same problem as with Halsey...none of this is shown at all or even mentioned, instead we get shown every single Elite, even those on the side of the Arbiter, hate humans and want to kill them all off. As I said before, when writing a believable story, you need more than just one side of something represented in it.

Spartan IIIs, Characters, and Traviss' Writing

Too bad, because the IIIs are exactly the same average in terms of strength levels as the Spartan IIs. The only differences in terms of strength is not having their amplified by Mjolnir. Personally the scene where Halseys gets punched isn't really a big deal to me for that reason, I take issue with it because of the general and overall error of misrepresenting Halsey's character and making it into something it isn't. Punch killing vs not killing is not something I really care about. Not being able to lift an Engineer however is stupid. It means Lucy can't even lift or shift her own weight...which is absolutely ridiculous for an augmented super soldier...or hell, even for a normal soldier!

As for Star Wars, I don't think the issue is killing off a major character, at least that's not really what I'd take issue with, the issue, for me personally at least, is killing off a character that wasn't hers without even consulting him or asking about it. If I was hired to write an expanded universe novel for some series, I would never kill of another author's character unless they specifically said I could. From who I've talked to, The Game of Thrones series actually suffers from his killing off so many characters, the way it was described to me was just killing for the sake of killing and it all came off as feeling cheap and just not serving any purpose. In fiction you want to avoid killing off to many main characters or characters...do it too many times and death becomes cheap and provokes a response more or less of "oh look, someone died again", that's also one of the flaws with the Harry Potter series, most of the characters who die do it pointlessly and it just felt cheap and contrived.

Buckell is actually one of the better Halo writers, Cole Protocol is one of the best there is in the series. And yes, every book has something that is a flaw in it...however, none of them are outright ignoring, blatantly changing, or anything else Traviss has done that doesn't fit with the lore just because they wanted to. They all did their research and made sure things fit....none of which Traviss has done. That's why her books in Halo are a problem. There's nothing wrong with her actual writing (from a formula and structure standpoint), merely her portrayal of the universe and story. Whatever Nylund may have been lacking in, he at least stayed true to the lore and didn't change things as he wanted to just because it was his preference.

Posted by: RobertoJH

Seriously, go read all of the earlier books again, most especially The Fall of Reach. I really can't stress this enough: HALSEY. DID. NOT. CREATE. THE. SPARTANS. ON. HER. OWN!!!!! ONI and those within the actual command structure of the UNSC were the ones who came up with the program, and they went to Halsey and asked her to lead up the project. This was not something she started all by herself and then told the UNSC about, or something she came up with and proposed to the UNSC. Are you really that out of touch with the lore that you think she created the Spartans all on her own with no authorization or anything from ONI or High Command within the UNSC?

And really? You think the clones could have been used? This was also talked about in TFoR, and you seem to be ignoring or forgotten, flash-cloning a whole human does not work, it's beyond their capabilities, organs and things on a small scale can be flash-cloned just fine...a full clone of a whole human though, it won't work, it can't sustain itself and the cloned human degenerates and develops problems that eventually kill it of natural causes. They weren't something Halsey engineered to die, it was something that couldn't be helped. And the whole reason Parangosky did anything concerning Halsey is purely simple, petty spite and hatred. She has absolutely no legitimate grounds for imprisoning Halsey or anyone, that is not within ONI's legal parameters or rights. That lies with the UNSC and UEG.

There is no other alternative but that is what she wants (audience to hate Halsey), that is the only view we are presented with, none of the Spartans stick up for Halsey, Mendez doesn't do anything but tear at Halsey (which is out of character and not how he thinks of the Doc), Hood doesn't do or say anything about it (Thursday War pretty much blatantly states he knows what Parangosky has been getting up to in regards to Halsey). And how Halsey herself was portrayed from her own perspective and from overall portrayal in general...Traviss wanted the audience to follow her position and view Halsey as the worst, most evil monster in human history. Asking questions or reading a wikipedia entry isn't enough, that's not proper research of a series. Playing the games and reading the books in addition to asking questions is...and Traviss did not do that, all she did was ask, she has outright stated she refuses to read the books, play the games, or watch the movies of the series that she is writing for, whatever is applicable.

  • 10.30.2012 7:22 PM PDT

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Posted by: jack0fhearts
Pushy is incessantly arguing with the Huragok. This I would expect. Pushy is not threatening to shoot them. This is something that Halsey would never do.
When did that even happen? Page number?

  • 10.30.2012 9:18 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

It's the entire reason that Lucy punched Halsey - yet another MASSIVE breach of canon, by the way.

Page 253 (Tablet version)

"Diplomacy, Doctor," Mendez said. "Try it."
But Halsey wasn't taking any notice. She was completely fixated on that damn* slipspace navigation and the need to let ONI know that she had it. She seemed to be thinking aloud now, because she certainly wasn't asking anyone for an opinion*, least of all the Chief.
"Once we get a signal out, then we'll need to take those Engineers with us," she said. "They're a unique resource. Huragok descended from the original strain created by the Forerunners. Imagine what we can extract from them."**
"Yeah, you keep saying that. And imagine how much we're p*ssing them off."
"They're just organic computers.*** They're like AIs."
"Maybe, but you say they've waited a hundred thousand years? Well, then we can afford to spend a couple of days sweet-talking them. That's just a few weeks outside."
"Planets fall to the Covenant in weeks. In days."
"All I'm saying is that this isn't working, so try another tack."


Couple of things before I continue on. First (*) this is a poor example of passive narrative, and only proves our point that Traviss' opinion is forced on the reader. During that sentence, it is not from the view-point of any one character. Such descriptions (condemning the very vital slipspace drives and passing a negative light on Halsey's demeanor as "uncooperative" in such a fashion,) are very unbecoming of a neutral author. Second (**) Halsey here understands the importance of the Huragok, and she damn well knew (***) what the Engineers were, and that they were more than "organic computers." Hell, humans are "organic computers." Why then would she continue on as follows?


Halsey reached out for the control panel again, one hand on her sidearm. It was visible in her pocket. Lucy readied herself to move in if the woman did anything stupid.
"So what happens if I access this? Are you going to stop me?" Halsey took a step towards Prone and he backed away. "I don't want to harm you. I just want to call my damn office."
Prone recoiled and Refill Needed moved in as if he was trying to defend him. Lucy wanted to yell at Halsey to shut up and leave them alone, but the woman kept forcing Prone back, herding him into that corner, demanding things from him, and Lucy could see him starting to cower and fold his tentacles closer to his body. He was scared. She knew what it felt like to want to lash out and just make the noise and the pain and the fear stop.
Just leave him alone.
Lucy was a little shorter than Halsey but she knew she was a lot stronger. She grabbed her shoulder and yanked her back a few paces, her attention still on that sidearm. She could have done a lot worse. But Halsey just shrugged her off without even looking back at her and took another step forward.
"Prone, I think I know how to operate this, so if you don't--"


Canonical breech in 3, 2...


And that was when Lucy snapped.
She grabbed Halsey by the shoulder again, spun her around and threw a punch that send a shock wave right up her arm. Halsey hit the ground with a loud crack...


After Lucy has her little freak out, we see that Halsey suffers only a bloody nose. No concussion, even, though by rights (canonically,) she should be bleedin' DEAD. Also interestingly enough, Mendez - who is not augmented - has Lucy in a headlock. Somehow this one aged Marine is able to restrain a Spartan who is hell-bent on lashing out at "All that was bullying and threatening in her world." It also mentions that she kicked the Chief. So by rights, he should be dead too if it was with the same level of frustration and pre-teen angst.

So there you have it. Halsey is devolved magically through shoddy writing to a gun-wielding psychopathic bully, doing things that the Halsey in the real Universe would never do. She was no saint, but she sure as Hel is cold was not that barbaric and bullyish. And then we have the whole mess with Lucy's outlash...

And now I feel dirty for having wrote that.

  • 10.31.2012 12:29 AM PDT


Posted by: jack0fhearts
So there you have it. Halsey is devolved magically through shoddy writing to a gun-wielding psychopathic bully, doing things that the Halsey in the real Universe would never do. She was no saint, but she sure as Hel is cold was not that barbaric and bullyish.


She manipulated Corporeal Locklear into committing suicide.

  • 10.31.2012 4:46 AM PDT

Stupid ass washing machine...

No, I really enjoyed Glasslands. I'm re-reading it again at the moment before I can get my hands on The Thursday War.

Sure, I definitely prefer Nylund or even Buckell, but at least she isn't as bad as Dietz..

  • 10.31.2012 5:06 AM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: jack0fhearts
So there you have it. Halsey is devolved magically through shoddy writing to a gun-wielding psychopathic bully, doing things that the Halsey in the real Universe would never do. She was no saint, but she sure as Hel is cold was not that barbaric and bullyish.


She manipulated Corporeal Locklear into committing suicide.


*faceFlood* ...of all the stupid things *sigh*

No, that is not what happened at all. Halsey knew the Crystal had to be destroyed, there nothing involving suicide about it...destroying the Crystal may have wound up with Locklear's death, but that was neither his intention or Halsey's. There was no manipulation on either side, they both knew it had to be destroyed or the Covenant would just wind up following them again and they'd wind up in another deadly Slipspace battle they might not survive. You seem to actually agree with Traviss' opinions on the matter and think Halsey is some sort of evil monster or something similar or you wouldn't have phrased your response like that (unless it was just poorly worded, which I am inclined to doubt).

  • 10.31.2012 7:32 AM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: jack0fhearts
So there you have it. Halsey is devolved magically through shoddy writing to a gun-wielding psychopathic bully, doing things that the Halsey in the real Universe would never do. She was no saint, but she sure as Hel is cold was not that barbaric and bullyish.


She manipulated Corporeal Locklear into committing suicide.


I actually think it's stated that he had no idea the explosion would be THAT large. Suicide yes, but he took cover IIRC, but the explosion ended up killing him as well.

  • 10.31.2012 8:09 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

And by that logic Parangosky sent over 600+ kids to commit suicide.

  • 10.31.2012 8:11 AM PDT
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I preferred Nylund sure the characters might not of been as well developed but overall the books were more enjoyable. With Travis all she does is shove her opinions in your face constantly.

  • 10.31.2012 8:20 AM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
And by that logic Parangosky sent over 600+ kids to commit suicide.
More like 900. We all knew S-III's get one or two missions before they get sent off to die.

  • 10.31.2012 8:25 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
And by that logic Parangosky sent over 600+ kids to commit suicide.
More like 900. We all knew S-III's get one or two missions before they get sent off to die.


Well I only throw in Alpha and Beta companies, we still have no clue what Gamma was doing before being out into the S-IV Program.

  • 10.31.2012 8:29 AM PDT

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The thing is, she writes what she's told to write, it wouldn't really matter if they pick another writer, but I do believe Eric Nylund would do a way better job than hers.

  • 10.31.2012 8:31 AM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
And by that logic Parangosky sent over 600+ kids to commit suicide.
More like 900. We all knew S-III's get one or two missions before they get sent off to die.


Well I only throw in Alpha and Beta companies, we still have no clue what Gamma was doing before being out into the S-IV Program.
Good point. But I'm sure at least 50 of them died since we all know ONI never cared how insane a mission was and didn't care if any of them made it back for not.

  • 10.31.2012 8:33 AM PDT


Posted by: MasterSin
The thing is, she writes what she's told to write, it wouldn't really matter if they pick another writer, but I do believe Eric Nylund would do a way better job than hers.
Umm...I'm sure all writers are giving a very basic outline on what to write, like no magic purple flying unicorns. It would no sense to hire a writer if you told everything to write.

  • 10.31.2012 8:37 AM PDT

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Not sure if it's been mentioned, but:

The issue you have with the story is not Traviss. It is Frankie and the rest of the 343i team.

Traviss is merely pouring water into buckets already fleshed out and outlined by 343's writing team. I honestly do not believe that this is her fault (after all, on the basis of my father's extreme reading habits, he absolutely adored her previous work).

So if there's no action, empty plotlines, irritating filler, it's unavoidable for her to have avoided that. There's only so much artistic license you can have as a contracted author.

It's the same issue I had with the Forerunner books. It's not the authors; it's the plot. It's hard to fill in the gaps in an exciting way. I believe they were actually technically well written, but plot content is definitely poor.

Although, on the whole, I believe the stories are okay, but I'm sure that there's a lot of magic missed and lost in the communication between the team and the authors. Another person's vision is hard to achieve.

  • 10.31.2012 8:45 AM PDT

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Posted by: SonicJohn
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but:

The issue you have with the story is not Traviss. It is Frankie and the rest of the 343i team.

Traviss is merely pouring water into buckets already fleshed out and outlined by 343's writing team. I honestly do not believe that this is her fault (after all, on the basis of my father's extreme reading habits, he absolutely adored her previous work).
Is that a known fact? Cause I find it hard to believe concidering how different the various stories 343i have put out are from one another. I don't think any of them are guided in extreme detail, otherwise the Forerunner and Kilo-Five trilogies would have been far more similar in style. And I don't mean writing style, I mean what they choose to respect, how they treat characters, and how they set the tone. None of those things seem to take the same guidelines into consideration.

As I see it, they're given a bunch of plot lines to fulfill, and the freedom to do so however they see fit (343i wouldn't really be respecting the authors otherwise). It would certainly explain why they are so different. Bear for instance seems to have a lot more respect for what already was established before he started writing, and treaded over the delicate areas as softly as he could (maybe a bit due to his son supposedly being a huge fan of Halo?), but Travis didn't seem to care, she walks over the preconceptions with her own prejudice, the same way she does in her other books according to many who've read them.

Maybe her other books are good, idk, but one can't dismis that she evidently--as seen by this backlash--isn't very good at working with someone elses style and universe, this universe, just because of her previous history.

[Edited on 10.31.2012 10:04 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2012 10:01 AM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: jack0fhearts
So there you have it. Halsey is devolved magically through shoddy writing to a gun-wielding psychopathic bully, doing things that the Halsey in the real Universe would never do. She was no saint, but she sure as Hel is cold was not that barbaric and bullyish.


She manipulated Corporeal Locklear into committing suicide.


*faceFlood* ...of all the stupid things *sigh*

No, that is not what happened at all. Halsey knew the Crystal had to be destroyed, there nothing involving suicide about it...destroying the Crystal may have wound up with Locklear's death, but that was neither his intention or Halsey's. There was no manipulation on either side, they both knew it had to be destroyed or the Covenant would just wind up following them again and they'd wind up in another deadly Slipspace battle they might not survive. You seem to actually agree with Traviss' opinions on the matter and think Halsey is some sort of evil monster or something similar or you wouldn't have phrased your response like that (unless it was just poorly worded, which I am inclined to doubt).


The way I read it, she seemed to be fully aware of what would happen if the crystal exploded. She psychologically guilted him into destroying it, playing on his sense of duty, courage and what she knew he felt he owed to his comrades.

I don't like Halsey. Nylund wrote her as an annoying Mary Sue who could do anything - the smartest human alive, good looking, saviour of humanity, has combat training, can hack into anything, etc etc.

Traviss' interpretations have nothing to do with it, and to be honest she's made me like her a little more because she feels like an actual human being now rather than an omniscience demi-god. But no, I don't really like her.

  • 10.31.2012 11:13 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Wolverfrog

The way I read it, she seemed to be fully aware of what would happen if the crystal exploded. She psychologically guilted him into destroying it, playing on his sense of duty, courage and what she knew he felt he owed to his comrades.

I don't like Halsey. Nylund wrote her as an annoying Mary Sue who could do anything - the smartest human alive, good looking, saviour of humanity, has combat training, can hack into anything, etc etc.

Traviss' interpretations have nothing to do with it, and to be honest she's made me like her a little more because she feels like an actual human being now rather than an omniscience demi-god. But no, I don't really like her.

The crystal itself exploding didn't kill Locklear, the fact that he covered it in a lot of C-12 high explosive and was only a few feet away when it blew was what killed him.

  • 10.31.2012 1:05 PM PDT


Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: Wolverfrog

The way I read it, she seemed to be fully aware of what would happen if the crystal exploded. She psychologically guilted him into destroying it, playing on his sense of duty, courage and what she knew he felt he owed to his comrades.

I don't like Halsey. Nylund wrote her as an annoying Mary Sue who could do anything - the smartest human alive, good looking, saviour of humanity, has combat training, can hack into anything, etc etc.

Traviss' interpretations have nothing to do with it, and to be honest she's made me like her a little more because she feels like an actual human being now rather than an omniscience demi-god. But no, I don't really like her.

The crystal itself exploding didn't kill Locklear, the fact that he covered it in a lot of C-12 high explosive and was only a few feet away when it blew was what killed him.


And, as I recall, he did take cover. If he was wanting to die he would just stand there.

Besides, he was more pissed at it because the pilot (who he was interested in) died because of it's effects and the resulting battle.

And... when did they describe Halsey as good looking more then once?(I only recall the scene where she and keyes got out of cryo as being described as lovely/striking) And when the frak was she described as having combat training?

  • 10.31.2012 1:40 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

What I meant was that C-12 is very powerful and that he should have been much farther away, cover or no.

  • 10.31.2012 1:56 PM PDT


Posted by: Xd00999
What I meant was that C-12 is very powerful and that he should have been much farther away, cover or no.


True, but I hardly feel like the thing was Halsey's fault. He was pissed at the pilot dying, Halsey merely pointed out the crystal was dangerous and the cause.

So he blew it up.

  • 10.31.2012 2:08 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

What book is that one in? I'd have to read it again, but I highly doubt that Halsey was just all "Hey, you should totally kill yourself because that's the ONLY way to destroy that crystal."

  • 10.31.2012 2:35 PM PDT

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Posted by: SonicJohn
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but:

The issue you have with the story is not Traviss. It is Frankie and the rest of the 343i team.

Traviss is merely pouring water into buckets already fleshed out and outlined by 343's writing team. I honestly do not believe that this is her fault (after all, on the basis of my father's extreme reading habits, he absolutely adored her previous work).

So if there's no action, empty plotlines, irritating filler, it's unavoidable for her to have avoided that. There's only so much artistic license you can have as a contracted author.

It's the same issue I had with the Forerunner books. It's not the authors; it's the plot. It's hard to fill in the gaps in an exciting way. I believe they were actually technically well written, but plot content is definitely poor.

Although, on the whole, I believe the stories are okay, but I'm sure that there's a lot of magic missed and lost in the communication between the team and the authors. Another person's vision is hard to achieve.

I think I agree more with this notion now.

  • 10.31.2012 2:40 PM PDT

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Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: MasterSin
The thing is, she writes what she's told to write, it wouldn't really matter if they pick another writer, but I do believe Eric Nylund would do a way better job than hers.
Umm...I'm sure all writers are giving a very basic outline on what to write, like no magic purple flying unicorns. It would no sense to hire a writer if you told everything to write.


It's like this, they hire a writer and they tell the writer, "we want a story about demonizing Halsey, the rescue of spartans and we want a conflict / alliance with the elites. Go!"

She doesn't really have a "free to write whatever comes in mind", 343 tells her in what direction they want the story to go, she just makes the story readable and she has certain freedom in details.

[Edited on 10.31.2012 2:44 PM PDT]

  • 10.31.2012 2:43 PM PDT


Posted by: jack0fhearts
What book is that one in? I'd have to read it again, but I highly doubt that Halsey was just all "Hey, you should totally kill yourself because that's the ONLY way to destroy that crystal."


First strike

  • 10.31.2012 3:37 PM PDT