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Subject: Evidently Bungie didn't like Halo Wars

I'm just your average idiot savant.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/09/27/ensemble-claims-bungie -tension-over-halo-wars

I'm not sure if this is old news but this article was published about a month ago so probably not that old.
In any event, I'd always wondered what Bungie's take on Ensemble's game was and it seems it was none too positive...
Thoughts?

  • 10.29.2012 1:09 PM PDT
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Meh.

  • 10.29.2012 1:26 PM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
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The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

I brought that up on the Is Bungie Bitter tread, made a comparison that they might have thought the same about anyone else that made a Halo game.
But we'll never know, so...

Isn't this topic more suited for the Flood?

EDIT: post below: wouldn't Bungie have called it out if it was "false information", just wondering?

[Edited on 10.29.2012 1:33 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2012 1:31 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Something about that screams "false information" to me. Namely that Bungie would allow for books, t-shirts, comics, action figures, animes, etc etc, and yet call a new genre Halo game "whoring out."

To add to this, Halo Wars from the get-go was meant to be a Halo "skin" for another game's engine, not Halo from the ground up. This article claims differently. It also acts as though there has never been a console RTS game ever, yet this is clearly not the case as we see with Command and Conquer and Lord of the Rings: Battles for Middle Earth (though it is a port.)

From everything that we were told (and it does show in the game,) Bungie offered as much support as they could. I don't know what this article's aim is, but it seems very skewed and falsified.

[Edited on 10.29.2012 1:35 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2012 1:31 PM PDT

game was good though!

  • 10.29.2012 1:54 PM PDT

I'm just your average idiot savant.

Posted by: fatalred alarm
game was good though!

I don't think it was so much about the game itself than what it meant for the franchise which Bungie had so lovingly crafted.

  • 10.29.2012 1:57 PM PDT

I'm just your average idiot savant.


Posted by: the real Janaka
I brought that up on the Is Bungie Bitter tread, made a comparison that they might have thought the same about anyone else that made a Halo game.
But we'll never know, so...

Isn't this topic more suited for the Flood?

EDIT: post below: wouldn't Bungie have called it out if it was "false information", just wondering?

Like I said, it might not have been about the fact that someone else was making a Halo title but rather that Halo was sort of whimsically slapped on to something that was originally not supposed to have anything to do with it just so Microsoft could feel safer.

And on second thought yeah, maybe this thread would make more sense on the Flood. To late now though.

  • 10.29.2012 2:04 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Neon Android
Posted by: fatalred alarm
game was good though!

I don't think it was so much about the game itself than what it meant for the franchise which Bungie had so lovingly crafted.


It did nothing but good for the franchise, in fact the story was more competently crafted than most of Bungie's Halo games. This was the first time we'd seen a game properly connect to the novels through the introduction of Shield Worlds (having previously been in Ghosts of Onyx) among various other things whereas Bungie still dichotomised the games from other canonical material.

I find it highly ironic that they'd call Wars "whoring out the franchise" when they were simultaneously making Reach. Seems downright hypocritical since the story of Reach had already been told in 2 novels, and the game added nothing new to the story other than a collection of dull characters with no personality and a nostalgia-induced plot which only came into play at the end of the penultimate mission.

Wars did infinitely more for the Halo universe than Reach, if Bungie did indeed say that Wars was "whoring out the franchise" then they should hang their heads in shame.

  • 10.29.2012 2:21 PM PDT

Halo Wars was better than Halo 3 and Halo Reach in terms of campaign and story, and gave me the best online experience this console generation.

  • 10.29.2012 3:11 PM PDT

It looked like a lot of Halo Reach was inspired by Halo Wars though, in terms of art design.

  • 10.29.2012 3:57 PM PDT
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This information is from like the prehistoric era. This is so old.

  • 10.29.2012 4:01 PM PDT

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Posted by: ShortRoundMcfly
It looked like a lot of Halo Reach was inspired by Halo Wars though, in terms of art design.

Not too mention: Jorge - Forge.

Timer fries on Forge; sacrifices self.
Timer fries on Jorge; sacrifices self.

Both sacrifice themselves in place of a Spartan.

Forge - Spartan from Red Team.
Jorge - Noble Six.


I'm seeing a lot of similarities here ...

  • 10.29.2012 4:13 PM PDT

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Surely they must realise it was Microsoft's fault at the end of the day?

I didn't particularly like Halo Wars, but nonetheless ES put a lot of effort into the game. Hardly a "whore out" if you ask me.

  • 10.29.2012 4:14 PM PDT

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I think it has been obvious for a long long time that Bungie were not happy that Halo was so blatantly slapped into an RTS game to make money. The utter lack of endorsement said a lot.

I can imagine that this whole sequence of events was one of the catalysts that lead to Bungie leaving Halo and Microsoft behind when they realised that they didn't have control over their very own creation. Sad day for us all.

  • 10.29.2012 4:51 PM PDT

Seriously, that article does not sound legit in any way.

Why? Because both ensemble and bungie when the game was being made/just released talked about how (IIRC) helpful bungie was to ensemble about the units/making sure things fit.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Something about that screams "false information" to me. Namely that Bungie would allow for books, t-shirts, comics, action figures, animes, etc etc, and yet call a new genre Halo game "whoring out."

To add to this, Halo Wars from the get-go was meant to be a Halo "skin" for another game's engine, not Halo from the ground up. This article claims differently. It also acts as though there has never been a console RTS game ever, yet this is clearly not the case as we see with Command and Conquer and Lord of the Rings: Battles for Middle Earth (though it is a port.)

From everything that we were told (and it does show in the game,) Bungie offered as much support as they could. I don't know what this article's aim is, but it seems very skewed and falsified.


Agreed. I distinctly remember hearing about how Ensemble was thankful and happy to work closely with Bungie on the units and other things.

I wanna see a source for the article. It sounds false and fake otherwise.

  • 10.29.2012 5:01 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Neon Android
Posted by: fatalred alarm
game was good though!

I don't think it was so much about the game itself than what it meant for the franchise which Bungie had so lovingly crafted.


It did nothing but good for the franchise, in fact the story was more competently crafted than most of Bungie's Halo games. This was the first time we'd seen a game properly connect to the novels through the introduction of Shield Worlds (having previously been in Ghosts of Onyx) among various other things whereas Bungie still dichotomised the games from other canonical material.

I find it highly ironic that they'd call Wars "whoring out the franchise" when they were simultaneously making Reach. Seems downright hypocritical since the story of Reach had already been told in 2 novels, and the game added nothing new to the story other than a collection of dull characters with no personality and a nostalgia-induced plot which only came into play at the end of the penultimate mission.

Wars did infinitely more for the Halo universe than Reach, if Bungie did indeed say that Wars was "whoring out the franchise" then they should hang their heads in shame.



I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Reach showed us the Forerunner structure under Reach's surface which connects with First Strike (it even shows so in the first pages of the Definitive Edition), and Noble Team was far more compelling than Blue Team ever was. Seriously, who WERE the members of Blue Team?

Fred - He's good at close-quarters combat and blames himself for stuff.
Kelly - She's fast and "spunky".
Linda - She's good at sniping and she's quiet, but most Spartan-II usually weren't that fund of conversation either, so that's not exactly unique.

Now, what about Noble Team?

Carter - He's a no-nonsense kind of leader, however, the Legendary Commentary of Reach tells us that he and Kat once had a romantic relationship (which may have to have ended due their statuses as Spartans), which could possibly explain why he's so defensive of Kat when Halsey says "I could put you [Kat] in the brig for this...", due to residual feelings for her. Not to mention, he is the one carrying Kat's lifeless body after her death, yet he was not the one dragged her into the bunker after she got shot. This is just speculation, but perhaps part of the reason why Carter is so anxious to sacrifice himself in the Reach campaign is because after Kat died, he lost a piece of himself, and thus, nothing was preventing him from rejoining his lover and his family.

Kat - She's great with technology and is generally pretty snippy, even with Carter, who not even Emile tries to joke around with. To be honest, there's not much more to say for Kat that hasn't already been said in Carter's part, so I'll move on.

Jun - He's the sniper of the group and makes bad cooking jokes. For some reason, I really like that, just because I have never heard of that being a character trait before. Sadly, Jun seemed to have had pieces of dialogue (Let's bake this cake!) and other traits of his character cut out of the final product. That's a real shame, since after I read Fist Full of Arrows, I really wish there was more to Jun. Although, I guess you could say he's a bit childish when compared to everyone else.


Emile - This guy is really interesting because he has a bit of an artistic side, and as someone has pointed out before, he never removes his helmet (and thus, is faceless to the player) yet he draws a face on his visor. This is interesting because while every other non-playable member of Noble's faces are seen, Emile prefers to keep his helmet on. To me, Bungie was trying to convey that Noble Team aren't just suits of armor, but actual humans, Emile however IS his armor, yet he still has a "face". When Emile is killed, his "face" is covered, and when his identity is masked, he is impaled by an Energy Sword and later passes away. When Emile shouts out "I'm ready! How about'chu?", he is referring to death, and perhaps his skull represents Emile's preparation for the bitter end. Emile reminds me a bit of Shaun, actually. Shaun lives by thinking "It'll be easier to think that I'm already dead..", perhaps Emile saw himself as a shell of a man, and didn't fear the end because of this very reason.

Jorge - He's the one Spartan-II in Noble and is just MASSIVE, yet he just seems so harmless when he's helmet is not on, and when Emile isn't ripping on him. Gawd, I just love Jorge. His voice actor is great, his relationship with Noble Six and the player is greater than any other member of Noble, making his death the one with the most weight, at least to the player alone.



Also, The Battle of Reach felt like in after thought in tFoR, and it only described the space battle. First Strike gave us SOME insight to the ground engagements, but we only saw Red Team, and it just seemed like the whole purpose was to just say "Spartans died."


As for Halo Wars having a better story? I don't think I can agree to that either. I mean, I don't think it's worse than anything in the main trilogy, but like Halo CE - 3, it falls into the same basic events.

Act 1. The Covenant
Act 2. The Flood
Act 3. Both

It really doesn't bring anything groundbreaking in terms of story.

[Edited on 10.29.2012 5:43 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2012 5:35 PM PDT
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Posted by: Wolverfrog
Halo Wars was better than Halo 3 and Halo Reach in terms of campaign and story, and gave me the best online experience this console generation.
Worst Legendary difficulty, surpassing even Reach.

  • 10.29.2012 5:59 PM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
Praisers are going to praise.

The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
I'm not a fan of any of the teams you put under the loupe, but as I see it, there's a fairly obvious reason for why so many prefere Blue team.

They've only appeared in a book, which makes people apply their own imagination on who they are. A sentence is there, right infront of the reader, it is hard to miss. Noble team might be thoroughly depicted; their appearence is seen, not described, which removes any form of imaginationt (the same goes for their voice, and all other characterisations), but even though those parts are far more obvious and unequivocal, the things that define their persona, are spread throughout the game, making it harder to get a just and collected view on who they are. Noble team gets treated as a team from a bad Hollywood blockbuster, whilst Blue basks in the glory of ambiguity.

[Edited on 10.29.2012 6:07 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2012 6:00 PM PDT

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  • 10.29.2012 6:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
Carter - He's a no-nonsense kind of leader, however, the Legendary Commentary of Reach tells us...
That should have been in the game, not in some exclusive content that most people wouldn't see until it got on the torrents or uploaded.

Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
Kat - She's great with technology and is generally pretty snippy, even with Carter, who not even Emile tries to joke around with. To be honest, there's not much more to say for Kat that hasn't already been said in Carter's part, so I'll move on.
You forgot to mention she has a peculiar taste for Covenant blood, laughing when they die.

Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
Jun - He's the sniper of the group and makes bad cooking jokes. For some reason, I really like that, just because I have never heard of that being a character trait before. Sadly, Jun seemed to have had pieces of dialogue (Let's bake this cake!) and other traits of his character cut out of the final product.
Yeah I suppose he had the makings of a good character.

Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
Emile - really interesting

artistic side
lol!

Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
Jorge - He's the one Spartan-II in Noble and is just MASSIVE, yet he just seems so harmless when he's helmet is not on
yet his aim is so terrible it's hard to believe he could have come this far.

Nonetheless, he was a great character.

Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
I mean, I don't think it's worse than anything in the main trilogy, but like Halo CE - 3, it falls into the same basic events.

Act 1. The Covenant
Act 2. The Flood
Act 3. Both

It really doesn't bring anything groundbreaking in terms of story.
Not Halo 2. Halo 2 showed us the Covenant side of things. Chief doesn't encounter the Flood (in-game) until the last Chief mission.

  • 10.29.2012 6:05 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: ALPHAslayER1911
Reach showed us the Forerunner structure under Reach's surface which connects with First Strike (it even shows so in the first pages of the Definitive Edition)


Er... no it doesn't connect with First Strike at all. The Forerunner ruins under SWORD Base are only brought up in the game and briefly talked about in Halsey's Journal. It does not appear at any other point in the Halo series, nor is it otherwise even referenced. What it contains is never explained, the only exposition it got was Halsey saying "knowledge".

and Noble Team was far more compelling than Blue Team ever was. Seriously, who WERE the members of Blue Team?

If you're asking that after having 4 books focused on them with several comics and various other media then you've clearly mentally disregarded it to make such a terrible statement like that.

I would amend your post to this:
Emile - He's good at close-quarters combat and blames others for stuff.
Kat - She's good with tech and "spunky".
Jun - He's [really not] good at sniping and has terrible dialogue, but most Spartan-IIIs usually weren't that fond of conversation either, so that's not exactly unique.


Anyways...

Carter - He's a no-nonsense kind of leader, however, the Legendary Commentary of Reach tells us that he and Kat once had a romantic relationship (which may have to have ended due their statuses as Spartans)

Hold up a moment. I don't care what they said in the commentary, where is that referred to in the game? Or even at all?

Oh right, it never is.

which could possibly explain why he's so defensive of Kat when Halsey says "I could put you [Kat] in the brig for this...", due to residual feelings for her.

Or because he thinks Halsey is being stupid making threats to a Spartan? Or because he thinks a Spartan is more important in the fight against the Covenant than a random data chip they found? Or because he's loyal to his team?

How does him defending Kat prove in any way he has 'feelings' for her? She's part of his team, he's not just going to say "yup, here you go, stick her in the brig"...

Not to mention, he is the one carrying Kat's lifeless body after her death, yet he was not the one dragged her into the bunker after she got shot. This is just speculation, but perhaps part of the reason why Carter is so anxious to sacrifice himself in the Reach campaign is because after Kat died, he lost a piece of himself, and thus, nothing was preventing him from rejoining his lover and his family.

See above. Absolutely none of that is any sign of him loving her. Did he love Jorge too? He died, so it must be the case... The game makes absolutely no reference to any kind of relationship between the characters. Why didn't Kat know Six? They would have grown up in Beta Company together for about 8 years, but she doesn't know him... Why isn't Six her 'love interest', or at least some kind of conflict between her, Carter and Six?

What backstory is even explored in Reach? Absolutely none.

Kat - She's great with technology and is generally pretty snippy, even with Carter, who not even Emile tries to joke around with. To be honest, there's not much more to say for Kat that hasn't already been said in Carter's part, so I'll move on.

Meaning: "There's nothing to say about Kat because she receives almost no character development in the game at all".

Jun - He's the sniper of the group and makes bad cooking jokes. For some reason, I really like that, just because I have never heard of that being a character trait before.

This is neither a reason to like a character, nor does it make a character good. He's the sniper of the group, and yet the most sniping he does is... actually none at all. Linda hung upside down inside a Covenant ship and shot out 7 Banshee pilots with one hand during First Strike, she did more in 30 seconds of reading than Jun did for the whole game.

Sadly, Jun seemed to have had pieces of dialogue (Let's bake this cake!) and other traits of his character cut out of the final product. That's a real shame, since after I read Fist Full of Arrows, I really wish there was more to Jun. Although, I guess you could say he's a bit childish when compared to everyone else.

You are aware that 'A Fistful of Arrows' is non-canon, right? Instead of removing his dialogue, they should have just removed his character completely because he contributes absolutely nothing to the story and what can laughably be called the plot.

Emile - This guy is really interesting

Nope.

because he has a bit of an artistic side

Nope.

and as someone has pointed out before, he never removes his helmet (and thus, is faceless to the player) yet he draws a face on his visor. This is interesting because while every other non-playable member of Noble's faces are seen, Emile prefers to keep his helmet on. To me, Bungie was trying to convey that Noble Team aren't just suits of armor, but actual humans, Emile however IS his armor, yet he still has a "face".

Indulge me a moment, would you kindly?

When Emile is killed, his "face" is covered, and when his identity is masked, he is impaled by an Energy Sword and later passes away. When Emile shouts out "I'm ready! How about'chu?", he is referring to death, and perhaps his skull represents Emile's preparation for the bitter end. Emile reminds me a bit of Shaun, actually. Shaun lives by thinking "It'll be easier to think that I'm already dead..", perhaps Emile saw himself as a shell of a man, and didn't fear the end because of this very reason.

You use the word "perhaps" a lot when you talk about these characters because we're given absolutely no backstory or information about them beyond the archetypes they represent. Like Jun, Emile contributes absolutely nothing to the story other than being 'that guy' who makes snarky remarks and acts like a badass with a cutting fetish. I'm honestly surprised you managed to talk about him for so long when he could be cut from the game along with Jun and absolutely no difference would have been made to the story at all.

Jorge - He's the one Spartan-II in Noble and is just MASSIVE, yet he just seems so harmless when he's helmet is not on, and when Emile isn't ripping on him. Gawd, I just love Jorge. His voice actor is great, his relationship with Noble Six and the player is greater than any other member of Noble, making his death the one with the most weight, at least to the player alone.

Jorge I can give you. He was the only interesting character in Noble Team, and it came as a pretty huge middle-finger to me that he was killed off half way through the game. Couldn't they have killed off the rest of those loathesome twats instead? The biggest problem with Jorge though? He's just Kurt from Ghosts of Onyx under a new name and appearance, which honestly detracts from the whole point of Kurt being 'unique' among the Spartan-IIs.

Also, The Battle of Reach felt like in after thought in tFoR, and it only described the space battle. First Strike gave us SOME insight to the ground engagements, but we only saw Red Team, and it just seemed like the whole purpose was to just say "Spartans died."

And Reach's purpose wan't just to say "Spartans died"? Allow me to direct you to this article where Marcus Lehto makes it pretty clear that the game's ultimate point is to showcase Spartans dying:

Marcus Lehto, creative director: Well, the game's a tragedy overall. We wanted to tell the story of the Spartans sacrificing everything they had

I might point out that we only see the battle of Reach from Six's point of view in the game...

As for Halo Wars having a better story? I don't think I can agree to that either. I mean, I don't think it's worse than anything in the main trilogy, but like Halo CE - 3, it falls into the same basic events.

Act 1. The Covenant
Act 2. The Flood
Act 3. Both

It really doesn't bring anything groundbreaking in terms of story.


Er... what? I can disprove your final statement with 2 words:

Shield. World.

This was a concept only in Ghosts of Onyx at the time, one that was extremely vague and unexplored. About half of Halo Wars is set on Shield-0459, regardless of the conventional narrative formula it had, Wars was infinitely more groundbreaking than Reach in terms of story because the only story in Reach was moving from point A to B to get rid of Covenant in an area.

Wars also introduced a variety of new vehicles, expanded on various battles across Harvest and Arcadia, and was accompanied by a graphic novel setting the stage and tone for the game by bringing characters like Admiral Cole into the picture.

How you can believe what you have said is... astounding, to say at the least.

  • 10.29.2012 6:23 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

This is a thought that creeps into my head every time someone brings up Noble team / Blue team. Have you ever wondered if Blue team would have had nearly as much character (such as it is) if all they had was a single 8-10 hour campaign split between all of them? Maybe the reason Blue are good characters are because they have more to their name? Would any of the characters in the main games be considered even remotely good if they didn't have any EU to back them up? Would your opinion of Noble Team change if instead it was Blue Team with all the EU behind them with no dialogue or scene changes? Give Noble another chance before throwing them to the ground. Just look at Caveman's threads: obviously there is potential in these characters.

  • 10.29.2012 6:42 PM PDT



Posted by: TheSpiderChief

Not too mention: Jorge - Forge.

Timer fries on Forge; sacrifices self.
Timer fries on Jorge; sacrifices self.

Both sacrifice themselves in place of a Spartan.

Forge - Spartan from Red Team.
Jorge - Noble Six.


I'm seeing a lot of similarities here ...


Adding to that

The Exodus mission from Reach is almost the same as the Arcadia City mission in Halo Wars

The assassinations in Reach looked like the special Elite/Spartan kills from Halo Wars.

The Reach marines and grunts were designed to look a bit like the ones from Halo Wars.

The Spire from Reach was taken from Halo Wars iirc.

  • 10.29.2012 7:00 PM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307
You are aware that 'A Fistful of Arrows' is non-canon, right?


To be fair, it was made by Bungie - even if it was after the transition to 343i, I still hold it as canon in the absence of anything contradictory. What annoys me is that they imbued NOBLE team with personality in that comic and made me actually care for them, but in the game they're complete cardboard cut-outs.

It seems like they built this big backstory, made all these interesting character designs and basically loads of potential, and then couldn't work out how to fit it in the game.

[Edited on 10.30.2012 3:05 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2012 3:03 AM PDT

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I sorta enjoyed it, but to each their own i guess.

  • 10.30.2012 4:49 AM PDT

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