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Subject: Suggestions for HDR and Realtime Dynamic Weather in Halo 3!
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Hey there! I just want to share some different suggestions and ideas that I've had for awhile regarding Halo 3. I'm not claiming to be the first to have spun them up, but I feel that I want to share them, and hopefully maybe even a few people from Bungie might stop by and at least take a look.

Feel free to comment or add your own opinions or thoughts as well!

HDR Lighting:

I've read that Bungie is busy implementing High Dynamic Range lighting into the engine. With the sorts of detailed varieties of signature civilized and desolate martian landscapes and environments that make up the Halo series, I know this is going to great if done properly, I can tell. Hopefully the studio is planning on implementing something similar to the sort of HDR that's seen in the Half-Life 2 Episodes, which is a great standard to cite as an example of HDR lighting done properly.

Realtime Dynamic Weather:

I really don't know whether or not this has yet to be officially mentioned, but a realtime weather system really seems like the next logical leap to make in regard to added realism. I imagine that it would most definately be possible to build each map in the Singleplayer Campaign so that the weather programmed for it would loosely obey some sort of prescripted instructions as to the map's intended environment; but then when it came down to it, loading up and playing the same map multiple times would yield different weather-related results.

Imagine: The player would be dropped into an overcast level, for example, with scattered clouds gathering overhead. I don't know if this is possible to achieve on the Xbox 360 hardware or not, but volumetric clouds could be programmed into the engine and given rain-conductive properties, which would allow for some really randomized dynamic behavior. Can you imagine this working in tandem with the HDR lighting system? Here you are, the player, fending off strings of enemy forces on the ground, while clouds are moving in from the east overhead. The ground grows darker, as the clouds slowly block the sun from view, rays diffusing and blooming from between the last remaining cracks. Suddenly a flash of lightning streaks across the sky, and a deafening roar of thunder is heard. Rain begins to fall by the bucketload, and the tides of the battle suddenly flip as your range of vision decreases substantially and mist begins to swell up from the dirt and grass; this would take replayability to an absolute whole new level!

Regarding Multiplayer Mode, could the HDR and realtime weather effects described above be implemented into online and offline multiplayer gameplay as well? The game host's console could give all of the server-side instructions to the other players' systems, and everyone would play under the same evolving environment conditions. Do you know how seriously cool this would be? Terrain vehicles like Warthogs and Scorpion tanks that were gaining the upper edge on the opposing team not five minutes ago suddenly begin to squeal and lose their traction as the ground begins to shine with moisture and previously stable collision and physics properties slowly turn the surface into mud; and now the frictionless Ghost suddenly becomes the vehicle of choice for the time being.

Nature has its way with the combatants on the field as well, and the sniper perched in the rocky alcoves high above the map picking off the other players slowly begins to lose his deadly aim as the storm settles in, the rain rendering visibility poor and fogging up and distorting the scope lense of his rifle and forcing him to scavange for a more close-range firearm. Another player was not so careful to recognize the sounds of lightning, and mistakes the far-off rumbling of thunder for a nearby explosion, rushing into a fray of deadly enemy fire. This would be insane!

What do you think about this?




[Edited on 7/4/2006]

  • 06.29.2006 2:08 PM PDT
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I said this a LONG LONG time ago, but everyone just shrugged it off as unimportant. This is what I really want the most for multiplayer. i wanted the weather and the weather affect for so long. I really really hope they implement a weather system into Halo3. Let's cross our fingers and hope that Bungie wants the same thing.

  • 06.29.2006 2:28 PM PDT
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I agree wholeheartedly, I think its an amazing idea and would be an absolute stunner if it were incorporated into the game like this.


I hope Bungie takes note, I'm sure loads of fans want to see this in Halo 3.

  • 06.29.2006 2:33 PM PDT
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Bump-a-dunk-dunk.

  • 06.29.2006 4:36 PM PDT

Don’t get mad if I flame you because you cannot spell, or because my three year old has better grammar and etiquette than you.

I am gonna go from a different angle of debate here, most people hated backwash with its dagobah effects. SO while its a good theory in your head, it doesnt always turn out to peoples liking, but in game I dont think they argue, but in MP they do.

Personally I liked it and I dig your idea, but just from the removal and hatred towards that map in MP I dont know how it would fair, and I do think it was done very well.

Just a quick thought anyhow.

  • 06.29.2006 4:41 PM PDT
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This just happens to be one of the more intelligent ideas that I have recently read about. The replayabilty would be enormous. Just think, a sunny zanzibar then clouds then storm and suddenly the waves get bigger half the map gets flooded (slowing movement and waves based physics so if you were on the beach and the tide comes in stuff gets thrown around). This would be totally awsome but would also have to be optional, obviously.

  • 06.29.2006 4:58 PM PDT
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I would also love this but imagine how hard it would be. sorry to rain on your parade (no pun intended) but they would need two discs to do this! Imagine the code!

[Edited on 6/29/2006]

  • 06.29.2006 5:04 PM PDT
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I would really like weather effects in multiplayer. I think that if a weather system was implemented right, it would great. As for HDR lighting, I haven't seen an example were I really liked it. Most of the time I think that it could be toned down a bit and made a bit more subtle. I thought the HDR and lighting in Half Life 2 episode one was ok, but it could use some work. I'm waiting to see some more of Halo 3 before I comment on it in the game.

[Edited on 6/29/2006]

  • 06.29.2006 5:06 PM PDT
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It's a wonderful thought-who knows what the 360 is capable of. I mean look at the first generation xbox games and compare them to the last wave of xbox games, if you would have shown someone doom 3 at xbox launch they would have said "NO WAY that has to be a next-gen game". I guess only time will tell.

[Edited on 6/29/2006]

  • 06.29.2006 5:07 PM PDT
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I think that my thoughts as to how it could be implemented well enough without interfering too much with gameplay would be thus: Build and program each Singleplayer and Multiplayer map that would take advantage of the weather system with some prescripted parameters that would tell the game engine what sort of weather on average this particular environment is prone to putting out -- For example, maybe a map like Coagulation, whose entire setting is supposed to come off as this barren, dry rocky quarry would not be prone to exhibiting weather effects that were as wild as, say, Zanzibar. Coagulation could see some cloud activity and whatnot, but nothing outside of what its limits would be written as.

Zanzibar, on the other hand, would be a perfect example of this. Imagine an updated physics system working in tandem with the weather engine, along with some better water effects akin to the absolutely wild shader effects that Ubisoft used in FarCry Instincts: Predator for the Xbox 360. A first play through the map may yeild nothing beyond some wind and a light rain -- However, another time through, and the wind starts to pick up even more than the last time around five or ten minutes in. Black clouds can be seen off in the distance, and the wind begins to blow violently out on the open beach, making palm trees sway and some loose canisters and rocks start to blow over and roll. Suddenly the waves are rolling in bigger laps, and the tide begins to rise and creep up on the beach.

This would be great! There's just an infinite number of scenarios that you could play out like this.



[Edited on 6/29/2006]

  • 06.29.2006 6:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: microapple
I would also love this but imagine how hard it would be. sorry to rain on your parade (no pun intended) but they would need two discs to do this! Imagine the code!


No. The code wouldn't be complicated at all. The important codes are AI and physics, not the sky... In Halo 2 it would be as simple as change the sky bitmap and maybe add basic effects like rain/snow which isn't going to take much space on the disc. I know in Halo 3 the clouds and background are in 3d but far objects dont have much polygon and clouds can be reused (there is no reason to have 1000 diferent cloud models, unless they are fully generated and not modelized). And there won't ever be a 2 disc game on Xbox 360 (except LE editions), there is enought room on them. Halo 2 was a very complete game that pushed the original Xbox to its limit and it was 2.8 GB. The maximum size of a DVD (double layer) is 9.4GB so there is enough place. I think the biggest Xbox 360 game so far is Oblivion (4.2GB) And it has a 16 square miles Map full of trees and thousands of 3d models, and like 100 hours of audio...

  • 06.29.2006 6:29 PM PDT
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this would be really cool. /congratulate. btw not enough for a cookie. you get like a coke or sprite.

  • 06.29.2006 6:35 PM PDT
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Got a root beer?

  • 06.29.2006 6:54 PM PDT
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Bump.

  • 06.29.2006 8:42 PM PDT
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Live!

  • 06.30.2006 8:39 AM PDT
Subject: Suggestions for HDR and Realtime Dynamic Weather in Halo 3... Pleas...

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I said somthing simmalier to this but it was about "randomly geneorated time of the day"
IE: when the game starts it randomly picks a time of day let's say 1:00 PM and Bungie could tune how fast time moves (Oblivion IV has a well tuned Time Movement thingy)

  • 06.30.2006 9:40 AM PDT
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there are good points here and like i said in my earlier post, we are not even out of the first gen 360 games theres no telling what bungie could pull off.

[Edited on 6/30/2006]

  • 06.30.2006 9:48 AM PDT

I think this is quite feasible. HDR is definitely in and I'm sure will look great.

Weather is another issue entirely, but I think it *could* be done, especially in Halo 3. Because Bungie is using a universal lighting system (not just lightmaps) where the sun actually is lighting everything, clouds affecting ambient lighting seems perfectly reasonable. Rain is an easy effect to throw around, though puddles and dynamic texture modification might not be so easy. I'm sure it could be done (and has been in some games), but it will surely come down to what's most important. Honestly, I don't know how important weather is. Sure, it would be 'cool', but is it worth spending a significant amount of time on instead of weapons balancing or level design? In my opinion, those things have a much greater impact on fun and replayability than dynamic weather. The physics system was rocky and a half in Halo 2, so if Halo 3's getting a full rewrite (and not more Havok), then terrain types impacting the system might be likely (where was the ice in Halo 2?).

Weather sure would be cool though. ;)

[Edited on 6/30/2006]

  • 06.30.2006 9:51 AM PDT
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Just think if you played lockout and a blizzard hit.....

  • 06.30.2006 9:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: EastBeast
I think this is quite feasible. HDR is definitely in and I'm sure will look great.

Weather is another issue entirely, but I think it *could* be done, especially in Halo 3. Because Bungie is using a universal lighting system (not just lightmaps) where the sun actually is lighting everything, clouds affecting ambient lighting seems perfectly reasonable. Rain is an easy effect to throw around, though puddles and dynamic texture modification might not be so easy. I'm sure it could be done (and has been in some games), but it will surely come down to what's most important. Honestly, I don't know how important weather is. Sure, it would be 'cool', but is it worth spending a significant amount of time on instead of weapons balancing or level design? In my opinion, those things have a much greater impact on fun and replayability than dynamic weather. The physics system was rocky and a half in Halo 2, so if Halo 3's getting a full rewrite (and not more Havok), then terrain types impacting the system might be likely (where was the ice in Halo 2?).

Weather sure would be cool though. ;)


Not everyone is working on the same thing at the same time you know. What is to stop bungie from hiring a few extra guys to do extra stuff? They've already done this in a few of there areas.(multiplayer) The ice is a good example also of how the environment can affect the vehicle handling.

[Edited on 6/30/2006]

  • 06.30.2006 10:01 AM PDT

Posted by: O R D O M
Not everyone is working on the same thing at the same time you know. What is to stop bungie from hiring a few extra guys to do extra stuff? They've already done this in a few of there areas.(multiplayer) The ice is a good example also of how the environment can affect the vehicle handling.


Yeah, I thought of that as I typed, but decided that it didn't really hurt my point too much. There are lots of reasons not to hire extra people. For one, team communication is far, far more important than most other aspects of development. Bungie is already nearing 100 people, so I don't think adding people is necessary. The more important thing is to rewrite the terrible implementation of Havok with a new system that feels more like Halo 1, yet also supports all objects and terrain variations. If that's done, then changing terrain friction values should be relatively easy.

That said, if adding different types of terrain (with different friction coefficients) is too hard/time-consuming, then perhaps it shouldn't be done. Halo 2 was perfectly successful without terrain differences (can someone confirm that this is true? I can only think of the conveyor belts as having different properties from all level geometry - I never thought about this and so can't help but wonder: is Havok the reason we don't have Sidewinder with ice in H2?).

So, what I should be getting across is that even if not everyone is working on the same thing, the physics system impacts a whole lot of stuff and therefore can't just be thrown to some extra employees. Not only that, but it has to be prioritized into the whole picture. You can't just hire more people when you want a new feature. That might work for a small team, but not for Bungie. People have to be assigned to tasks in groups, starting with the most important. I'm not sure weather is up there on the list.

Hope the ramble made sense. Time to get back to work.

[Edited on 6/30/2006]

  • 06.30.2006 10:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: EastBeast
Posted by: O R D O M
Not everyone is working on the same thing at the same time you know. What is to stop bungie from hiring a few extra guys to do extra stuff? They've already done this in a few of there areas.(multiplayer) The ice is a good example also of how the environment can affect the vehicle handling.


Yeah, I thought of that as I typed, but decided that it didn't really hurt my point too much. There are lots of reasons not to hire extra people. For one, team communication is far, far more important than most other aspects of development. Bungie is already nearing 100 people, so I don't think adding people is necessary. The more important thing is to rewrite the terrible implementation of Havok with a new system that feels more like Halo 1, yet also supports all objects and terrain variations. If that's done, then changing terrain friction values should be relatively easy.

That said, if adding different types of terrain (with different friction coefficients) is too hard/time-consuming, then perhaps it shouldn't be done. Halo 2 was perfectly successful without terrain differences (can someone confirm that this is true? I can only think of the conveyor belts as having different properties from all level geometry - I never thought about this and so can't help but wonder: is Havok the reason we don't have Sidewinder with ice in H2?).

So, what I should be getting across is that even if not everyone is working on the same thing, the physics system impacts a whole lot of stuff and therefore can't just be thrown to some extra employees. Not only that, but it has to be prioritized into the whole picture. You can't just hire more people when you want a new feature. That might work for a small team, but not for Bungie. People have to be assigned to tasks in groups, starting with the most important. I'm not sure weather is up there on the list.

Hope the ramble made sense. Time to get back to work.


Yes, yes, i see. I doubt that a weather system would help to sell more copies of H3 so really what is the point of putting one in? I can see where you are coming from. Though, it would be freaking sweet.

  • 06.30.2006 10:19 AM PDT

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Well, Halo 2 used some HDR.. I like the weather idea, but in my opinion, volumetric clouds are a waste of time, since the player never really gets close enough for it to matter.

As for Half-Life 2's (Episode 2) light adaption, it's actually incredibly unrealistic. It changes much differently than your eye would really change, and I'd assume a Spartan's visor would auto adjust tint to lighting conditions, just as an Air Force pilot's visor tints when he looks into the sun, so there wouldn't be a giant washed out screen if you look into the sky... As for random fog, that's not a bad idea. I think it'd be great to play Coagulation one game, with loads of fog, and then play another game right after, with a clear view of the canyon. Fog would make from some interesting close range battles on the larger maps. Also, thunder and lightning flashes would make the game even more intense..

I like the ideas. T'would truly be an epic experience.

  • 06.30.2006 10:19 AM PDT
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Do they have a middleware program or somthing that can randomly generate clouds? If they dont, they need one. It could make something as little as clouds, seem super sweet.

  • 06.30.2006 10:22 AM PDT

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