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  • Subject: Project: Balance, Version 3
Subject: Project: Balance, Version 3

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

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Posted by: PK 11
The assault rifle sounds good. Probably because I believe the new assault rifle is slightly more accurate.

Alright, that'll work.

I'd still like to have a single shot weapon as secondary though...


You mean this?

[Edited on 7/1/2006]

  • 07.01.2006 6:00 PM PDT

Sorry, but IMO, a lot of that stuff sounds really un-Haloesque. It sounds more like a Rainbow Six type of game, which is not what Halo is. If you want to balance the weapons THAT badly (which evidently you do, since you spent that much time making three different threads that obvioulsy took a lot of time and energy to put together--however misguided it may be) just go directly to Bungie with it, or make your own game.


I guess what I'm saying is that what you are saying sounds like its well thought out, but it just doesn't sound like it would fit with Halo very well.

  • 07.01.2006 6:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Savag3Shadow
Sorry, but IMO, a lot of that stuff sounds really un-Haloesque. It sounds more like a Rainbow Six type of game, which is not what Halo is. If you want to balance the weapons THAT badly (which evidently you do, since you spent that much time making three different threads that obvioulsy took a lot of time and energy to put together--however misguided it may be) just go directly to Bungie with it, or make your own game.


I guess what I'm saying is that what you are saying sounds like its well thought out, but it just doesn't sound like it would fit with Halo very well.


Halo is a game that needs balanced weapons. There are alot of games that can get away with unbalanced weapons, but Halo isn't one of them.

  • 07.01.2006 6:32 PM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

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Hmm, how does it sound anything like Rainbow Six? Do you have energy shields and easy headshots? I wouldn't think so. If you look at more then just Halo 2 and see their previous game, you'll see that major changes can still be made for H3, but this is not an extreme change. All it does is mess with the weights. A modder could do that now!

  • 07.02.2006 12:08 AM PDT
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There is one thing that I didn't see in there. Maybe I'm overlooked it, I'm not sure. But...

Balance CANNOT be achieved by spawning with a crap weapon. I believe you posted that the SMG would still be the spawn weapon of choice on most maps.

Now, you can defend the SMG all you want. I know that you very easily kill people at close range with it. A few shots and a running melee and you and the pea-shooter get a kill. However, the SMG is simply not versatile enough to serve as a spawn weapon.

The spawn weapon of choice for Halo 3 needs to be a weapon that can hold off a sniper, simply put. Because, like EVERY FPS, there will be many situations where one team simply spawns closer to a sniper rifle. That's not a bad thing if your team starts out with a weapon that can counter it (if you're good).

Some people counter this argument with, "You should have to EARN the best weapons." I agree with this statement. You should have to earn your power-ups, as they are what decides the game in the long run. However, this goes two ways.

If you spawn closer to the sniper and your team gets it first, holding that sniper rifle should not be a given. The other team should ALWAYS have a versatile weapon capable of countering a sniper rifle. This makes holding and earning power weapons a more difficult task.

I'm glad that there is a Project: Balance and I'm glad that there is a community behind it supporting it. As such, I'm going to place my proposal here:

Make the Battle Rfile a 5-shot kill (with the last shot required to be a headshot). 8 shots to the body if you don't go for the head.

Increase it's firing rate by a hair to make it slightly faster.

Increase the Battle Rifle's range.

A general decrease in the magnetism of aiming (it's simply too high in Halo 2) should mean that you have to be accurate with the Battle Rifle to win a fight, not get the first shot in. It must be a skill weapon.

Increase the Battle Rifle's accuracy so that the burst stays tightly together.

Finally, the most important part: let players spawn with a Battle Rifle and either:

A) an Assault Rifle, or

B) a SMG that is a fair bit stronger and more accurate than the current version.

I really hope this post doesn't spawn a flame war. I just hope that everyone learns the true importance of spawning with a versatile weapon that takes skill to use. That, truly, is the key to balance.

  • 07.02.2006 12:48 AM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

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You're right, there's no question about that. People have been saying that from the beginning. The balance system I've made for weapons, in my opinion is almost perfect. The real challange is the maps themselves. Each map has certain needs to keep the game from getting too one-sided.

[Edited on 7/2/2006]

  • 07.02.2006 6:49 AM PDT
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A Guide to Networking, Matchmaking, and Host in Halo (HBO mirror)

Bungie Friends and Family invitee, and sender of "random emails" about networking.

Some very good ideas in there. I like the idea of seeing the secondary weapon, being able to toggle the sword on and off (useful for when hiding, or when you have camo), longer weapon switch times, and having to pick ammo and grenades from a body by running over it, rather than having the ammo magically attached to the gun.

What I'd also like is an improved reloading system that keeps track of things more. For instance, you have to do several things when you reload. Eject the spent magazine, slap a new one in, -blam!- the gun, then start firing. What'd be great is if the game were to keep track. So say you melee after ejecting the clip, you've still got to put the new one in and crank the firing lever, instead of either reloading magically, or ejecting the already removed clip (as in Halo 1 and 2).

Good stuff. I don't agree with everything there, but you wouldn't expect most people to. But you're thinking, and I like that.

  • 07.02.2006 8:30 PM PDT
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if you had time to type all that.... damn,..... u must have no life..... go get laid

  • 07.02.2006 9:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: PK 11
Posted by: Savag3Shadow
Sorry, but IMO, a lot of that stuff sounds really un-Haloesque. It sounds more like a Rainbow Six type of game, which is not what Halo is. If you want to balance the weapons THAT badly (which evidently you do, since you spent that much time making three different threads that obvioulsy took a lot of time and energy to put together--however misguided it may be) just go directly to Bungie with it, or make your own game.


I guess what I'm saying is that what you are saying sounds like its well thought out, but it just doesn't sound like it would fit with Halo very well.


Halo is a game that needs balanced weapons. There are alot of games that can get away with unbalanced weapons, but Halo isn't one of them.


I'm pretty sure it already did...

Anyway, I read the whole thing. I like most of the stuff, But the instant kill thing is a little silly. It would be fun to use, but after a short time it would become useless because everyone will be able to predict it and dodge it. More often than not, you would screw yourself by accidentally power meleeing. So if anyone of import reads your post, I hope they scrap that part.

I like your concept for the PR's but I think you got it backwards. Agreed, if the elites use the PR more than any other weapon, it should be decent. However, A stock wouid be an unrealistic addition this late in the series. besides, the elites are less concerned with brute force, that's why the BPR is more powerful, but it overheats faster. I also think it has a (very) slight advantage in ROF. If you have never tried, take a pair of BPR's to some bloke with an overshield. remember to pump. you will be amazed.

Well, I don't know if I was going anywhere with that train of thought, so I'll just wrap it up. Other than the stuff I mentioned, I like what you've got. nice work.

  • 07.02.2006 9:48 PM PDT
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Hehe Dominus, you are right. Neither Halo 1 nor 2 are perfectly balanced (the latter is a mess!) but they are still more balanced than some other games out there...

  • 07.02.2006 10:42 PM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

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Posted by: Mr PWNAG3
if you had time to type all that.... damn,..... u must have no life..... go get laid


1. Unlike most people, I actually know how to type
2. This took me months to make, I take my time and have a life
3. I just like to do this

  • 07.02.2006 10:54 PM PDT
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The plasma pistol, when charged, should only charge for a few seconds, then it would release. It would probably make it more even. People wouldn't be running around with it charged the whole game.

  • 07.02.2006 11:24 PM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

☼►Popular Fusion - Doing anything, everything, and then some.◄☼

Hmm, not bad. I thought about adding that. What do the rest of you think?

  • 07.03.2006 7:42 AM PDT
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i just skiped to the bottom so that i could post nobody is gonna read all that your wasting your time writing so much

  • 07.03.2006 7:45 AM PDT
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As interesting as that all was, I can't help but feel that Bungie don't go into the mathematics of balance quite as much as you guys. I mean at the end of the day, however balanced you feel weapons are, you're not accounting for position or placement within maps, the frequency with which they respawn, the number of said weapon on each level, the way each of the weapons work together, not to mention the very obvious (but very pertinent) issue of personal favourites... These are issues you cannot resolve outside of testing, and without these variables, your very well thought out plan is, dare I say it... a little redundant.

Not to take anything away from your efforts, I just think that Bungie will spend more time playing and going 'yeah that feels right' or 'this is a little overpowered', rather than sitting there, writing guestimate numbers for how 'Powerhouse' each weapon is.

[Edited on 7/3/2006]

  • 07.03.2006 8:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: Zephrix
The plasma pistol, when charged, should only charge for a few seconds, then it would release. It would probably make it more even. People wouldn't be running around with it charged the whole game.


That'd be lame.

  • 07.03.2006 2:12 PM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

☼►Popular Fusion - Doing anything, everything, and then some.◄☼

Posted by: graffam93
i just skiped to the bottom so that i could post nobody is gonna read all that your wasting your time writing so much


just because you think that way doesnt mean everyone else will especially when you use no punctuation that makes it really hard to read sometimes you know what i mean youre never going to read this again so why am i responding to you

Posted by: DocRobotnik
As interesting as that all was, I can't help but feel that Bungie don't go into the mathematics of balance quite as much as you guys. I mean at the end of the day, however balanced you feel weapons are, you're not accounting for position or placement within maps, the frequency with which they respawn, the number of said weapon on each level, the way each of the weapons work together, not to mention the very obvious (but very pertinent) issue of personal favourites... These are issues you cannot resolve outside of testing, and without these variables, your very well thought out plan is, dare I say it... a little redundant.

Not to take anything away from your efforts, I just think that Bungie will spend more time playing and going 'yeah that feels right' or 'this is a little overpowered', rather than sitting there, writing guestimate numbers for how 'Powerhouse' each weapon is.


That is right. I'm not creating a map here, but with universal weapons and such that aren't too overpowering or too weak, it's easier to make a fair map for all games.

[Edited on 7/3/2006]

  • 07.03.2006 11:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: bansheeownz
That is right. I'm not creating a map here, but with universal weapons and such that aren't too overpowering or too weak, it's easier to make a fair map for all games.


I understand that point, but wouldn't removing the power weapons take some of the 'halo' out of halo and make it more like a generic shooter? Surely some of it's charm comes from the irritance of big weapons in unfortunate places :)

I mean, I can't even count how many times the sniper and rocket were the topic of conversation, the source of my anger, AND my humour... I think they make the game what it is. Sure, I agree that things like non-respawning power weapons made the second game woefully unbalanced compared to CE, but I think removing or dampaning their ferocity would be changing the game too much.

I can't help feel that whenever people get a good thing i.e. a new game (halo) - original - fun - exciting - they spend the rest of their time thinking of ways to change it. No, it's not neccessarily the game you would make and no, you aren't going to love all of it - it's bungie's game. Let's leave them to make it their way and whether it's perfect or not, they'll have playtested it enough to know that it'll be damn good fun.

  • 07.04.2006 1:35 AM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

☼►Popular Fusion - Doing anything, everything, and then some.◄☼

Posted by: DocRobotnik
I understand that point, but wouldn't removing the power weapons take some of the 'halo' out of halo and make it more like a generic shooter? Surely some of it's charm comes from the irritance of big weapons in unfortunate places :)

I mean, I can't even count how many times the sniper and rocket were the topic of conversation, the source of my anger, AND my humour... I think they make the game what it is. Sure, I agree that things like non-respawning power weapons made the second game woefully unbalanced compared to CE, but I think removing or dampaning their ferocity would be changing the game too much.

I can't help feel that whenever people get a good thing i.e. a new game (halo) - original - fun - exciting - they spend the rest of their time thinking of ways to change it. No, it's not neccessarily the game you would make and no, you aren't going to love all of it - it's bungie's game. Let's leave them to make it their way and whether it's perfect or not, they'll have playtested it enough to know that it'll be damn good fun.


People, please take the time to read what I actually have to say rather then make assumptions because of the detail. One of the first things I said in the very first post is that the Sniper or Rockets will still have power and kept saying that throughout the entire project. This project will make everything worth picking up, but will not make everything exactly the same. I said that a million times, yet no one seems to hear me. The best system is a slightly rigged Halo system. And by the way, you want to try to stop me after all I've done? You don't know how long it took me to make all this. I know you didn't mean it that way, but I'm just making a point.

  • 07.04.2006 3:43 PM PDT
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dang! the parts that i read, i agree with, i think Weapons should show up on the body's person.

  • 07.04.2006 4:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: bansheeownz
People, please take the time to read what I actually have to say rather then make assumptions because of the detail. One of the first things I said in the very first post is that the Sniper or Rockets will still have power and kept saying that throughout the entire project. This project will make everything worth picking up, but will not make everything exactly the same. I said that a million times, yet no one seems to hear me. The best system is a slightly rigged Halo system. And by the way, you want to try to stop me after all I've done? You don't know how long it took me to make all this. I know you didn't mean it that way, but I'm just making a point.


Woah... Don't take it so personally dude. I'm simply making an observation. This is a discussion thread, right? And it wasn't entirely directed at you either - There have been many posts in this thread that have suggested major overhauls to the weaponry; my point was to those posters more than anything - I'm not trying to stop you :) You've worked very hard on this thread and I think it's a good one too.

Personally, I think that any kind of balance even comparable to Halo CE was ditched as soon as duel wielding was introduced. No way back now! :)

  • 07.05.2006 1:27 AM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

☼►Popular Fusion - Doing anything, everything, and then some.◄☼

Really? I hadn't noticed them. Sorry.

New discussion. What do you think about the new Plasma Rifle? It almost makes it worth picking up, doesn't it?

[Edited on 7/6/2006]

  • 07.06.2006 3:59 AM PDT
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Posted by: bansheeownz
Really? I hadn't noticed them. Sorry.

New discussion. What do you think about the new Plasma Rifle? It almost makes it worth picking up, doesn't it?


No problem ;)

I never really has a problem with the old plasma rifle. Why fix what aint broke?

[Edited on 7/6/2006]

  • 07.06.2006 4:44 AM PDT

Good thread, and I agree with most of your points, but one thing I do not agree with is....

The 'real weapon change thing' and showing ammo and grenades, its a bit too much for Halo. As in, abit too Realistic, it doesn't really help that Master Chiefs suit isn't really designed for holding ammo/greandes ;). It would probably slow down the pacing as well, and frustrate players as they've desperatly try to switch weapons when someone is shooting at them.

Also, I think theres too many weapons appearing now ;o

Now, I got a kind of suggestion about the BR/ Assault Rifle thing.... How about, the AR is stronger than the BR at taking people down in terms of when their shield is down, but the catch is that the AR is full auto and suffers from recoil (not the -blam!- recoil that the SMG has). You could say the BR is a more noob friendly weapon, because of the 3 shot, it'll help it in medium range and be 'acceptable' in short range, but with the AR, the full auto will make newbs panic at middle range combat (and more skilled players will learn to shoot in bursts) and be pretty good in close range, but some control of the trigger will still be needed or else you won't hit nowt.

[Edited on 7/6/2006]

  • 07.06.2006 6:24 AM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

☼►Popular Fusion - Doing anything, everything, and then some.◄☼

Hm, that's just putting it into words. That's about the way it's already going to be.

  • 07.06.2006 8:15 AM PDT