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Subject: Spartan Ops Ep. 4
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Posted by: the real Janaka
OT: wonder if Jul will be in-game, or if he'll be killed in a cutscene?
Knowing 343, it will be horribly done if in-game.

Their last mini-bosses were barely fleshed out Generals with fuel rod guns. @_@

Halo 4 could have been an opportunity to give the General rank more depth (not to mention design unique AI for it) but like Reach*, it fails so hard in integrating them into canon** and making them interesting**.

AT first I was excited about Thunderstorm skull's unique upgrade but now I think it'd have been better to upgrade every Elite to Zealot since there would be more variety (some Elites cloak). Halo 2 Thunderstorm had it right: most Elites become capable of pulling out swords

All 343 would do is give Jul an assortment of power weapons and make him behave like any other Elite. I doubt they'd give him a Sangheili point defense gauntlet or make him dual wield guns or swords or make him do anything unique.

Cutscene would be better.

But if it were gameplay, I hope it's sandbox like the fight with Regret and Tartarus. You could stay out of the bosses' reach and take a break. You could glitch the battles for amusing results (knock Regret out of his seat, plant a grenade into him, have Keyes distract Tartarus, clone Johnson, Elite army).

*They were never mentioned, there was not one marked as a high priority target, they never appear in Noble Six's death cutscene despite making prominent appearances before it, and instead of Zealots appearing as the last waves on Lone Wolf, it was all Generals, despite the fact that Zealots were fought on the prior level and there'd have been a ton more given the situation

**a couple of names, some mentions, and a waypoint over their heads don't convince me of their value. They felt like your average disposable minion. Look at Sesa Refumee. He had how many cutscene appearances? I was sure this guy was no ordinary Heretic. Even the Zealot on ToTS felt significant in that I had to pursue him.

[Edited on 11.27.2012 1:33 AM PST]

  • 11.27.2012 1:18 AM PDT

If they kill Jul in Spartan Ops, after becoming the most developed and interesting character in the entire series after Glasslands and The Thursday War, I will not be happy at all.

But with the emphasis they're putting on him, I fear it's what they're going to do. Deep down, he's a good man. But he fears for his people, and with good reason too - ONI's got plans to commit genocide on their entire species. If I were in his shoes, I'd want humanity wiped out.

I feel this conflict will resolve itself, though. And I want Jul alive to see that, and realise his errors. His character development arc has only just begun, and if they kill him now it'd be a terrible shame - a much, much bigger one than anything 343i has done with Halsey or ONI.

  • 11.27.2012 6:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: Wolverfrog
If they kill Jul in Spartan Ops, after becoming the most developed and interesting character in the entire series after Glasslands and The Thursday War, I will not be happy at all.

But with the emphasis they're putting on him, I fear it's what they're going to do. Deep down, he's a good man. But he fears for his people, and with good reason too - ONI's got plans to commit genocide on their entire species. If I were in his shoes, I'd want humanity wiped out.

I feel this conflict will resolve itself, though. And I want Jul alive to see that, and realise his errors. His character development arc has only just begun, and if they kill him now it'd be a terrible shame - a much, much bigger one than anything 343i has done with Halsey or ONI.


I totally agree, he just needs to realize his errors.
But i doubt that oni will let him live after his agression towards humans and after his escape from onyx.

  • 11.27.2012 10:25 AM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

My biggest problem with SOPS still is that the missions don't fit with the episode very well. I would like missions that had objectives that both connected with the cutscene and seemed to be important. SOPS has so far delivered some great episodes, and even some fun gameplay, but it lacks greatly in cohesion.

  • 11.27.2012 10:50 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost


Halo 4 could have been an opportunity to give the General rank more depth (not to mention design unique AI for it)


The problem is, they neither have distinctly unique armors, or distinctly unique colors (If they do, they blend together for me).

So I only know that it's a general if it has a fuel rod and a yellow tint. The minors, zealots, and officers blend together (unless I'm scoped, then the officers I can pick out) and I've hardly seen any real color difference.

I'd personally like if it either the colors or designs were visually distinct so we could spot-see an elite and go "Oh crap, that's a zealot." or "Eh, minor. no big deal."

edit: Ah, unique AI. Well, I recall they said the AI would actively pursue/flush us from cover... the most I've gotten was elites with swords charging me. In episode 4 there was a cluster of elites (two with fuel rods) who simply never advanced forward. Even if I popped from cover and then retreated. :/.

[Edited on 11.27.2012 11:25 AM PST]

  • 11.27.2012 11:23 AM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
Praisers are going to praise.

The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

Posted by: Sliding GhostYes! That's one of the points with Halo isn't it; to take the A.I a step further, every time one has the chance.

The better A.I the enemies have, the more interesting encounters one can have, within the same gameplay mechanics. Not going that direction is what stagnates gameplay for me.

The pinnacle would be if a boss battle wasn't a scripted event, but something that could happen in-game, just cause of the A.I.Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The problem is, they neither have distinctly unique armors, or distinctly unique colors (If they do, they blend together for me).

So I only know that it's a general if it has a fuel rod and a yellow tint. The minors, zealots, and officers blend together (unless I'm scoped, then the officers I can pick out) and I've hardly seen any real color difference.

I'd personally like if it either the colors or designs were visually distinct so we could spot-see an elite and go "Oh crap, that's a zealot." or "Eh, minor. no big deal."
You mean like CE, 2, 3, ODST, and Reach? I'm sure you didn't mean to, but the way you phrased it made it seem like you suggested something new; a solution for the problem. :P

I agree btw, personality in the battlefield helps increase how engaged one is, and it allows for more strategy.

  • 11.27.2012 12:23 PM PDT


Posted by: the real Janaka
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: the real Janaka
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I'm going to laugh really hard if the Librarian comes out and goes "Humanity are reclaimers, stop hating them." and seeing the Elite's reactions :P.
Conflict resolved by logic and negotiation; that would be refreshing.

I imagine the Elites suddely entering idle mode, like the horde of Smiths' did when Neo left.. *awkward pause* Wort, now? *end scene*


I'd picture an awkward silence, then suddenly a fight as you got Jul/his pals vs the Elites going "Forerunner has spoken, no going against that." and all.
It'd be like one of those classic bar fight scenes. Chief's got Jul's head in an arm lock and then the Librarian sways open the doors and tries to be all wise and whatever *moment of silence* A Grunt drops a grenade or something, and then they're back at it.

I'm more and more looking forward a non-canonical comedy version. Spartan Ops...

OT: wonder if Jul will be in-game, or if he'll be killed in a cutscene?


I don't think it'd be good for the story if Jul M'dama was killed off in Spartan Ops. I think they should actually include him in a campaign for another Halo game before he gets killed. He could fit that dark villain very well in Halo V...

  • 11.27.2012 12:54 PM PDT

About me: I am a vicious wolf of a man.

But really am sweet at heart. =)


Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: ajw34307
I'm pretty sure it's the Librarian, and I have to say I -blam!- love the way the story is developing. Jen is getting some really great material as Halsey, and, as usual, is giving a stellar performance throughout.

Nice to see that the Spartan-IVs aren't being wasted as actual characters too.

Yeah they could have easily been throwaways but I think they are being handled well.


This. And I appreciate that 343i hasn't turned them all into hilarious Mary Sue characters with no faults, they are in fact regular soldiers made to be Spartans. It's really noticeable when Thorne says he was in the Army before joining the Spartans. First time we've heard of the Army in the UNSC being actively involved, rather than the Marines and Navy.

  • 11.27.2012 2:15 PM PDT

I gaze upon the stars and see the majesty that is the universe.


EGO mos bulla astrum.


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
My biggest problem with SOPS still is that the missions don't fit with the episode very well. I would like missions that had objectives that both connected with the cutscene and seemed to be important. SOPS has so far delivered some great episodes, and even some fun gameplay, but it lacks greatly in cohesion.
This is true. There should at least be missions where you're helping out Majestic Squad and contributing to their objectives.

  • 11.30.2012 12:52 AM PDT

A simple life.

Omg Didact's Hand is hilariously fun with all the rocket launchers and sniper rifles. 88 kills is my record with 4 people in matchmaking not bad

  • 11.30.2012 1:03 AM PDT

"Moooooooo"
-Ghost cow

Jul needs to stay. He's a very good "bad guy". His motives and character have been fleshed out extremely well. It shows that Sangheili aren't just dumb bipedals going "Human bad. We kill", but an interesting, multi-faceted people. He makes us sympathise with Sanghelios and see them not as faceless killing machines, but a people struggling to survive. I will be extremely disappointed if he's killed off in Spartan Ops.

  • 11.30.2012 1:09 AM PDT

I am a monument to all your sins


Posted by: Gottalovec4

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: ajw34307
I'm pretty sure it's the Librarian, and I have to say I -blam!- love the way the story is developing. Jen is getting some really great material as Halsey, and, as usual, is giving a stellar performance throughout.

Nice to see that the Spartan-IVs aren't being wasted as actual characters too.

Yeah they could have easily been throwaways but I think they are being handled well.


This. And I appreciate that 343i hasn't turned them all into hilarious Mary Sue characters with no faults, they are in fact regular soldiers made to be Spartans. It's really noticeable when Thorne says he was in the Army before joining the Spartans. First time we've heard of the Army in the UNSC being actively involved, rather than the Marines and Navy.
The UNSC soldiers in Reach were Army.

  • 11.30.2012 1:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Sliding Ghost


Halo 4 could have been an opportunity to give the General rank more depth (not to mention design unique AI for it)


The problem is, they neither have distinctly unique armors, or distinctly unique colors (If they do, they blend together for me).

So I only know that it's a general if it has a fuel rod and a yellow tint. The minors, zealots, and officers blend together (unless I'm scoped, then the officers I can pick out) and I've hardly seen any real color difference.

I'd personally like if it either the colors or designs were visually distinct so we could spot-see an elite and go "Oh crap, that's a zealot." or "Eh, minor. no big deal."

edit: Ah, unique AI. Well, I recall they said the AI would actively pursue/flush us from cover... the most I've gotten was elites with swords charging me. In episode 4 there was a cluster of elites (two with fuel rods) who simply never advanced forward. Even if I popped from cover and then retreated. :/.
Agreed, the colors are lackluster.

It feels so scripted. Actively pursuing with fast running feet was not what I had in mind.

Most Spartan Ops maps were already on the disc so 343 seems to have rushed these episodes out (given the tiny Covies, the enemies being spawned/ending up outside of the map, some AI not doing anything, etc.).

Posted by: the real Janaka
Posted by: Sliding GhostYes! That's one of the points with Halo isn't it; to take the A.I a step further, every time one has the chance.

The better A.I the enemies have, the more interesting encounters one can have, within the same gameplay mechanics. Not going that direction is what stagnates gameplay for me.

The pinnacle would be if a boss battle wasn't a scripted event, but something that could happen in-game, just cause of the A.I.
Exactly.

I hated Tartarus and Regret in Halo 2, but they had something else to offer. You weren't forced into the fights. Regret in particular wasn't presented as a boss battle but it naturally became that way when you realized your rockets didn't work on him... The Tartarus fight has many glitches that make it replayable and if it weren't for the level design, I'd be playing that often.

The Heretic leader, 343 Guilty Spark, and Didact were some of the most disappointing bosses. The former lacked cover and freedom respectively while the latter felt like it was rushed. I find it interesting that the grav lift to go back onto the hardlight bridge is still functioning.

Posted by: the real Janaka
I agree btw, personality in the battlefield helps increase how engaged one is, and it allows for more strategy.
Agreed.

Just look at CE's AI. The marines berserked when they were about to die, the chain gunners threw their fists into the air when the Hog got decent height. All the base Covies sans Hunters tried to get the stuck plasma grenade off of them or responded to being stuck by a dozen needles. The Elites pointed, the Grunts and sword Elites stalked, the Grunts slept, the Hunters slept, and the AI would revert to casual patrols if the action died down.

Halo 4 is probably the closest right now, but it's hindered by the lack of characterization. Elites ought to speak in English or translated so they don't look like a bunch of idiots. Marines need to speak more clearly and show a little more ferocity in combat (like the marine who blows himself and the Knight with a grenade).

  • 11.30.2012 11:08 AM PDT
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Posted by: Wolverfrog
If they kill Jul in Spartan Ops, after becoming the most developed and interesting character in the entire series after Glasslands and The Thursday War, I will not be happy at all.

But with the emphasis they're putting on him, I fear it's what they're going to do. Deep down, he's a good man. But he fears for his people, and with good reason too - ONI's got plans to commit genocide on their entire species. If I were in his shoes, I'd want humanity wiped out.

I feel this conflict will resolve itself, though. And I want Jul alive to see that, and realise his errors. His character development arc has only just begun, and if they kill him now it'd be a terrible shame - a much, much bigger one than anything 343i has done with Halsey or ONI.
Agreed.

He's become like Thel and Rtas in that he understands the gravity of a situation, though a bit misguided.

[Edited on 11.30.2012 11:10 AM PST]

  • 11.30.2012 11:10 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Just look at CE's AI. The marines berserked when they were about to die, the chain gunners threw their fists into the air when the Hog got decent height. All the base Covies sans Hunters tried to get the stuck plasma grenade off of them or responded to being stuck by a dozen needles. The Elites pointed, the Grunts and sword Elites stalked, the Grunts slept, the Hunters slept, and the AI would revert to casual patrols if the action died down.

Halo 4 is probably the closest right now, but it's hindered by the lack of characterization. Elites ought to speak in English or translated so they don't look like a bunch of idiots. Marines need to speak more clearly and show a little more ferocity in combat (like the marine who blows himself and the Knight with a grenade).


I was wondering what felt 'off' about Halo 4's AI, and I think you just nailed it. They don't have personality, and adding to what you said it's also because of the small pool of animations - headshot a Sangheili and it will usually fall the same way, a charging Sangheili will always come at you with that same gait.

Maybe it was the same in the other games, but post-CE the ragdoll physics made sure every enemy died differently and it did feel like the AI had more life.

  • 11.30.2012 2:21 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

CE's AI remains the best in the series IMO. As Sliding Ghost pointed out, they actually had character to them. In the second mission when you're in the Warthog and emerge out the "not a natural formation" cave, there's a hill I always speed over because it gives you a lot of height and the Marines start cheering as you land. A plasma grenade comes their way while on foot, they'll combat roll out the way to avoid being hit.

Then when you stick enemies they'll start flailing around trying to pull the grenade off their doomed faces. They'll run blindly into a horde of their own ilk and make the job of cleaning up the latest wave of enemies a bit easier for me.

It was truly great stuff. I've played through Halo 4's campaign about 4 times now and in the sections where you are with Marines or Spartan-IVs (both of which are pretty rare anyway), they demonstrate none of the characteristics they did in CE. Nor do the Covenant, and the Promethean-Knights are pretty dull as their cowardly AI takes over and teleports them out of danger, or delivers an overpowered lunge from half a mile away.

If there's one major thing I can criticise Halo 4 for, it's that the AI have been very dumbed down.

  • 11.30.2012 2:43 PM PDT

Also, Wort Wort Wort is cooler than pseudo-Japanese.

  • 11.30.2012 3:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Just look at CE's AI. The marines berserked when they were about to die, the chain gunners threw their fists into the air when the Hog got decent height. All the base Covies sans Hunters tried to get the stuck plasma grenade off of them or responded to being stuck by a dozen needles. The Elites pointed, the Grunts and sword Elites stalked, the Grunts slept, the Hunters slept, and the AI would revert to casual patrols if the action died down.

Halo 4 is probably the closest right now, but it's hindered by the lack of characterization. Elites ought to speak in English or translated so they don't look like a bunch of idiots. Marines need to speak more clearly and show a little more ferocity in combat (like the marine who blows himself and the Knight with a grenade).


I was wondering what felt 'off' about Halo 4's AI, and I think you just nailed it. They don't have personality, and adding to what you said it's also because of the small pool of animations - headshot a Sangheili and it will usually fall the same way, a charging Sangheili will always come at you with that same gait.

Maybe it was the same in the other games, but post-CE the ragdoll physics made sure every enemy died differently and it did feel like the AI had more life.
Yep. This is especially noticeable when you shoot the Jackal in the gun arm.

Yeah that's one good thing about the newer Halo games. Halo 4's death animation for the Elites is much more convincing than the twirling Brutes in Halo 3.

Posted by: ajw34307
CE's AI remains the best in the series IMO. As Sliding Ghost pointed out, they actually had character to them. In the second mission when you're in the Warthog and emerge out the "not a natural formation" cave, there's a hill I always speed over because it gives you a lot of height and the Marines start cheering as you land. A plasma grenade comes their way while on foot, they'll combat roll out the way to avoid being hit.

Then when you stick enemies they'll start flailing around trying to pull the grenade off their doomed faces. They'll run blindly into a horde of their own ilk and make the job of cleaning up the latest wave of enemies a bit easier for me.

It was truly great stuff. I've played through Halo 4's campaign about 4 times now and in the sections where you are with Marines or Spartan-IVs (both of which are pretty rare anyway), they demonstrate none of the characteristics they did in CE. Nor do the Covenant, and the Promethean-Knights are pretty dull as their cowardly AI takes over and teleports them out of danger, or delivers an overpowered lunge from half a mile away.

If there's one major thing I can criticise Halo 4 for, it's that the AI have been very dumbed down.
Saving marines in CE was actually worthwhile. It doesn't even have to be a grenade. If the enemy shoots in their direction, they'll do their evasive maneuver. Same with Jackals.

It was a marvelous gameplay mechanic.

They're slightly better Reach marines really. The Spartan IVs have better firing range but that's about it. They all tend to shoot at dead bodies for a long time. Yep. I think the sword Elites have a more OP lunge.

  • 11.30.2012 5:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: Wolverfrog
Also, Wort Wort Wort is cooler than pseudo-Japanese.
Even though I couldn't understand them, there was always a different remark from them.

The Halo 4 Elites tend to repeat things they've already said.

  • 11.30.2012 5:11 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
They all tend to shoot at dead bodies for a long time.


Yes. They certainly bloody do! :P

I was just replaying the level Infinity actually, got 4 Spartans on the Scorpion and instead of firing at the oncoming Wraith, they decided the dead Grunt was a much higher priority.

  • 11.30.2012 5:20 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Also, Wort Wort Wort is cooler than pseudo-Japanese.

"Wor wort wort" is in Halo 4. I heard it in Spartan ops. It was nice to finally hear it back.

  • 11.30.2012 6:10 PM PDT

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