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Subject: Shooting death of black teen puts Florida law back under spotlight

"When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change". - Avatar Aang to Korra


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srsly?

MIAMI (Reuters) - A Florida man appeared in court on Wednesday to face charges in the shooting death of an apparently unarmed black teenager in a case putting Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law back under the U.S. media spotlight less than a year after the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Michael Dunn, 45, is being held without bail on charges of second-degree murder for the Friday night shooting of Jordan Davis, who was also 17.
According to authorities, Dunn pulled into the parking lot of a Jacksonville, Florida, gas station alongside the SUV where Davis and three friends, all of them young African Americans, were listening to music.
Dunn asked them to turn their music down and, after an apparent exchange of words with Davis, he produced a gun and fired eight or nine shots at the SUV. At least two of the bullets hit Davis, causing his death.
Dunn, who was in Jacksonville for his son's wedding, sped off after the shooting but he was arrested on Saturday in Brevard County, Florida, police said.
Dunn's lawyer, Robin Lemonidis, told reporters that someone in the SUV brandished a shotgun and Dunn opened fire on the vehicle in self-defense.
"It will be very clear that Mr. Dunn acted responsibly, and as any responsible firearms owner would have acted, under these same circumstances," Lemonidis said.
She could not be reached for further comment on Wednesday but appeared to indicate that Dunn will invoke Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law in his defense.
The law gives legal protection to anyone, anywhere, to use deadly force in a case where a person is attacked and believes his life or safety is in danger.
Critics say the law, adopted under former Florida Governor Jeb Bush after a big push by pro-gun advocates, has been used to allow some Floridians to shoot and kill with impunity while also encouraging vigilante justice.
The law fell under a firestorm of criticism earlier this year when police in Sanford, Florida, cited it for their initial refusal to arrest George Zimmerman to face murder charges in the killing of Trayvon Martin.
Police say no shotgun or other weapon was found in the SUV where Davis, a high school student, was shot and killed.
Formal charges against Dunn will be filed at a court appearance set for December 19, said Jackie Barnard, a spokeswoman for the State Attorney's office for the Fourth Judicial District of Florida.
"The investigation is ongoing and we're waiting for the sheriff's office to finish their investigation," she said. "We'll review the evidence and the State Attorney's office will make the appropriate charging decision."


good lord Florida, get your -blam!- together



[Edited on 11.29.2012 7:50 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 7:50 AM PDT

I like to play Reach for fun. I hate MLG, campers, armor lock, and team killers because they ruin that fun. Deal with it.

I stopped caring about that case.

  • 11.29.2012 7:51 AM PDT

Studies show that men think about sex every 7 seconds. I do my best to eat hotdogs in under 6, just so things don't get weird.

Please allow me to introduce Myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith

Its the Uncle Jimbo and Ned school of self defense. ITS COMIN RIGHT FOR US!! *bang bang bang*

  • 11.29.2012 7:54 AM PDT

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What were the words than were 'exchanged'? Sounds like the Black Teen was being a disrespectful tough wannabe. Doesn't justify dying, but if the Teen and his friends threatened him (I.e, 'Shut up before we kick your ***/we'll kill you.') Then it's more understandable. Still doesn't make it right.

[Edited on 11.29.2012 8:41 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 7:59 AM PDT

Studies show that men think about sex every 7 seconds. I do my best to eat hotdogs in under 6, just so things don't get weird.

Please allow me to introduce Myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith


Posted by: SpeedyBlueDude
What were the words than were 'exchanged'? Sounds like the Black Teen was being a disrespectful tough wannabe. Does justify dying, but if the Teen and his friends threatened him (I.e, 'Shut up before we kick your ***/we'll kill you.') Then it's more understandable.

No. Just no.

You shouldn't be able to kill someone just because they threaten you. maybe if the teens showed him a gun, or something like that. But if those teens were unarmed, the man is just a murderer.

  • 11.29.2012 8:02 AM PDT
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Foman is my favorite moderator. <3

There isn't a problem with Stand Your Ground.

Stand Your Ground is fine if you can show reasonable threat to your life or safety. He'll have his time in court.

  • 11.29.2012 8:16 AM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!

Posted by: A Good Troll
There isn't a problem with Stand Your Ground.

Stand Your Ground is fine if you can show reasonable threat to your life or safety. He'll have his time in court.
The problem is inherent as the law addresses disputes between two parties and effectively allows either to be the executioner of the other, thus preventing their side of the story from being presented.

The Zimmerman case is a perfect example: only two people really know what happened that night between those two; one of them is now dead, so it's rather hard to refute the living party's recollection of the events.

Castle Doctrine is great, IMO, but SYG needs some work.

[Edited on 11.29.2012 8:27 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 8:26 AM PDT
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Yup.

Related. I don't really care if one white man shoots a black teen. There is far more black on white violence than white on black violence and it gets no media attention.

"Of the 1,700,000 interracial crimes of violence that involved Blacks and Whites, 90 percent were committed by Blacks against Whites; Blacks were thus 250 times more likely to commit violence against Whites than Whites against Blacks."

[Edited on 11.29.2012 8:30 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 8:29 AM PDT
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Foman is my favorite moderator. <3


Posted by: RighteousTyrant
Posted by: A Good Troll
There isn't a problem with Stand Your Ground.

Stand Your Ground is fine if you can show reasonable threat to your life or safety. He'll have his time in court.
The problem is inherent as the law addresses disputes between two parties and effectively allows either to be the executioner of the other, thus preventing their side of the story from being presented.

Our court system functions on innocent until proven guilty, so I have to default to that. Obviously even in cases where no eyewitnesses are present, you can go to forensic evidence. Angle of shot, proximity, etc.

At least in this case, this was done in front of decent eyewitnesses - both at the store and the dead guy's friends. So you have both sets of evidence to include.

  • 11.29.2012 8:30 AM PDT

In a time long past, the armies of the dark came again to the lands of men. Their leaders became known as the fallen lords, and their terrible sorcery was without equal in the west.
In 30 years they reduced the civilized nations into carrion and ash. Until the free city of Madrigal alone defined them. An army gathered there, and a desperate battle was joined against the fallen
Heros were born in the fire and bloodshed of the wars which followed and their names and deeds will never be forgotten

If a gun was pulled on him and his life was in jeopardy, I can understand.

[Edited on 11.29.2012 8:33 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 8:31 AM PDT
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deej pls

It's not the "stand your ground" law; it's idiots who kill people for looking at them wrong.

  • 11.29.2012 8:31 AM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Happened at a gas station/convenience store? I would hope and imaging that there is CCTV footage to corroborate any/wall witness testimony.

While there may be "stand your ground" laws and I understand and agree with the core concept of the Castle Doctrine, I have always held myself to a personal standard of "as long as I have a method of safe withdrawal, I am inclined to take it".

I am not about to "stand my ground" or "defend my castle" if there is the ability for me to retreat and the main reason to stay is just my pride, ego or even material possessions. I know that the laws allow others to do that, but (for me) that is where the law runs a risk of being difficult to determine and I would want to avoid that uncertainty, especially with life (mine or someone else) at stake.

The factor that would make me stand/defend would be a lack of ability or no route to escape, or if my escape would leave a loved one facing the danger I wanted to avoid. Then I would not and could not leave and would do anything that I could to make sure that we were not the party who is injured or killed due to the criminal acts of another.

  • 11.29.2012 8:34 AM PDT

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Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Posted by: SpeedyBlueDude
What were the words than were 'exchanged'? Sounds like the Black Teen was being a disrespectful tough wannabe. Does justify dying, but if the Teen and his friends threatened him (I.e, 'Shut up before we kick your ***/we'll kill you.') Then it's more understandable.

No. Just no.

You shouldn't be able to kill someone just because they threaten you. maybe if the teens showed him a gun, or something like that. But if those teens were unarmed, the man is just a murderer.
Wow. Sorry in a hurry I messed up my post. In class so I didn't pay full attention to what I posted and proof read. My post is suppose to say 'DOESN'T justify dying' not 'Does justify'. My bad >~<

And I agree, the man is still guilty and isn't justified for killing a child. I could understand maybe if they threatened him and he felt in danger, but doesn't mean he should have shot or reacted. The man is an idiot, and the worst type of idiot, and idiot with a gun.

  • 11.29.2012 8:39 AM PDT

RIP Logan ~B.B.

Suspect said they produced a shotgun in the car. No shotgun was found in the car. Guy is going to jail for murder, whether he tries to use stand your ground or not. As righteous said, this is quite a different situation than the Martin case, because this one has plenty of witnesses and a story that can be confirmed. In the Martin case, the unarmed teen that was killed doesn't get anyone to tell his side of it.

  • 11.29.2012 8:42 AM PDT
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Doesn't sound like the law applies in this case. At all..

  • 11.29.2012 9:00 AM PDT

On the Left

Godshatter: I can go all the way with someone without being attracted to them.
CamCamm: How does that work?
Godshatter: I'm easily aroused by anything that moves. It's a curse.
Brain says 'No, that's ugly', body says 'ugly is fine with me'.


Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie
Its the Uncle Jimbo and Ned school of self defense. ITS COMIN RIGHT FOR US!! *bang bang bang*

LOL, Man Florida is becoming DayZ.

  • 11.29.2012 9:03 AM PDT
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Posted by: RogueRainbowX
It's not the "stand your ground" law; it's idiots who kill people for looking at them wrong.

There's nothing wrong with the law when it's applied correctly. People argue that it tends to make people more trigger happy without thinking.

  • 11.29.2012 9:05 AM PDT

The shadow on the wall.

Silent

... "as any responsible gun owner would have done"

... Florida, your idiocy never ceases to amaze me.

To start off, I doubt there was a gun in the teens vehicle.

Secondly:

Step 1: Duck if you see a shot gun, and pull out your own firearm.

Step 2: shoot the closest tire on the others vehicle, shoot both that you can see if you can. (Do step one and two as fast as possible to avoid getting shot.)

Step 3: Drive off before they can get a shot off. This way you can't be accused of second degree murder.

or, if you want to play it safe and not be an idiot with a gun.

Step 1: Drive off.

Seriously.

  • 11.29.2012 9:05 AM PDT

Oh dear America.

  • 11.29.2012 9:08 AM PDT

The Spartan Special Ops - Now with more LOLgasms!

Posted by: EnragedElite67
"The problem with quotes on the internet is 95% are made up." - Socrates

Another one that crossed the line. He approached them. In my book, this isn't a case of stand your ground, it's a case of assault with a deadly weapon and subsequently murder.

No escaping the charges here.

  • 11.29.2012 9:13 AM PDT

A competitive players main goal is to win.
A casuals main goal is to have fun regardless of whether that results in a win or loss.
It has nothing to do with individual skill or knowledge, it has to do with the reason you play.

Americans and their guns.

  • 11.29.2012 9:16 AM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!


Posted by: A Good Troll

Posted by: RighteousTyrant
Posted by: A Good Troll
There isn't a problem with Stand Your Ground.

Stand Your Ground is fine if you can show reasonable threat to your life or safety. He'll have his time in court.
The problem is inherent as the law addresses disputes between two parties and effectively allows either to be the executioner of the other, thus preventing their side of the story from being presented.

Our court system functions on innocent until proven guilty, so I have to default to that. Obviously even in cases where no eyewitnesses are present, you can go to forensic evidence. Angle of shot, proximity, etc.
Problem is that none of that really does a lot to indicate who actually became a threat to the other first -- who approached who first, what was said and by whom, who first drew a weapon, etc. -- and hence whether the killing is justified, as we've seen in the Zimmerman case.

  • 11.29.2012 9:39 AM PDT

"If you want to test a man's character, give him power" -- Abraham Lincoln

Yet we hear no news on this when whites are killed by blacks.

  • 11.29.2012 9:40 AM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!


Posted by: ArchNinja64
Yet we hear no news on this when whites are killed by blacks.
You must be joking. Just turn on the local news one night.

  • 11.29.2012 9:42 AM PDT


Posted by: ArchNinja64
Yet we hear no news on this when whites are killed by blacks.

Do you hear 'blacks' claiming that they stood their ground?

  • 11.29.2012 9:42 AM PDT

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