Off Topic: The Flood
This topic has moved here: Subject: Do you think gaming will become more mature?
  • Subject: Do you think gaming will become more mature?
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3
Subject: Do you think gaming will become more mature?

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: BROWN HAWK
Posted by: swvjdirector
Of course. The level of interaction from the player combined with ever-improving visual technology has so much potential. Just thinking about the possibilities for storytelling and character development combined with player choice gets me pumped up-but then I remember that games like Halo and Battlefield are the most popular ones at the moment.

Not that they're bad games; they're fine. I just wish gaming would start taking itself seriously; it has the potential to make characters seem real. I know I've brought up Heavy Rain a lot already, but it's one of the games to make me feel as though I really knew the characters. I miss that.
Yes, I've heard it's notorious for its story, although I've never played it (don't have a PS3).

But I think that first-person shooters also have that potential, due to the fact that they're first-person and players can become a character in the game. And because of the fact that big-title FPSs have such a huge population, I think it's one of the best chances to give gaming a big boost, if there's a general sort of movement toward that side of gaming.


I think you have a very valid point. I don't know if you've heard of or played a game called Dear Esther? It's basically pure story, told from first person. It's not quite what it could be, but I think it validates your point that playing from first person can really increase immersion and player intimacy with their character. The trouble is this: The things I'm asking for don't sell. People want to just shoot things and blow them up. I know I'm in the minority here. And first and foremost developers have to make money. But I always feel so disappointed that games that (in my humble opinion) deserver massive amounts of respect (Journey, the recent The Unfinished Swan) are practically unherard of.

  • 11.29.2012 10:25 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"I know not what weapons World War III will be fought with, but I do know that World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

-Albert Einstein

They appeal to the majority of the market, and sadly, the majority of the market isn't into plots and story. They want quick, simple action.

  • 11.29.2012 10:27 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"The one who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The one who walks alone, is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been."
-Albert Einstein

"To live is the rarest thing in the word. Most people exist, that is all"
-Oscar Wilde

Steam


Posted by: swvjdirector

That's why I'm majoring in creative writing; I intend to be a writer for a game development company. I want to see the industry grow and be respected in a way nobody has seen yet. I have a lot of passion for the potential ahead of games; I really want to see them reach it. I think that makes it even more upsetting for me to see games that don't even make an effort to fufill that.


I'm actually happy to read this. I completely agree with you, though. Video games have potential to be masterpieces. We've already seem what they're capable of. I know I throw this game around a lot, but Planescape to me is one of the, if not the best example of video game writing we've seen to date. The story itself isn't complex, there are no major plot twists. But the attention to detail and general storytelling of that game is that of literature standard.

Then we've seen games like Shadow of the Colossus, we've seen that such a simple concept can be considered one of the greatest videos of all time. I personally believe that video games have so much potential to be great. I have passion for it. I love seeing a great immersive story-driven game.

I think that's what OP means when he says mature. Rather than the mindless shooters we have now that just focus on getting from point A to point B killing enemies on the way with a thinly veiled story laid gently over top.

  • 11.29.2012 10:27 AM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: teh Chaz
Posted by: swvjdirector
I agree, to an extent; but for that to happen, it needs to start being treated like the best medium for storytelling (which it has the potential to be.)
I don't entirely agree with this.

I think that interactivity from the player is more of a limitation on storytelling because the playable character generally needs to be somewhat of a blank slate in some respects that the player can fill in. Any actual character development can only really take place in cutscenes and that falls into the medium of film than games.

Games' defining feature, gameplay, doesn't actually have much to accommodate for storytelling because it is all "do" instead of "tell". The only games that really allow for some story to seep into gameplay are games like Mass Effect where you choose replies to conversations and what have you, but still, this is pretty basic and is nowhere near the level of storytelling that literature achieves.


This is a very strong and critical point. The trouble, as you said, is that you can't both develop the player character and have them be immersive. It's contradictory. My proposed suggestion would be to have every single word you choose to say, every action, and every interaction, to completely alter the way people view you and how the story unfolds. Is this inredibly difficult? Absolutely, but it would certainly push storytelling to the limit in a way we really haven't seen before. It's what makes characters seem real, in a way.

  • 11.29.2012 10:29 AM PDT

Posted by: Alex Mac Kee
If pen­ises were planes Jimmy's mouth would be an airport


Posted by: DarkBen64
Don't punch a British kid, the queen'll come after you.

Posted by: swvjdirector
This is a very strong and critical point. The trouble, as you said, is that you can't both develop the player character and have them be immersive. It's contradictory. My proposed suggestion would be to have every single word you choose to say, every action, and every interaction, to completely alter the way people view you and how the story unfolds. Is this inredibly difficult? Absolutely, but it would certainly push storytelling to the limit in a way we really haven't seen before. It's what makes characters seem real, in a way.
Then you have the issue of whether the person playing the game is an interesting character themselves.

Also something like that would leave no real room for backstory because the person making all the decisions would not be affected by any fictional past events.

Basically, interactivity limits storytelling because it doesn't allow the writer to create the world and the people within it entirely to their own vision, unlike film and even more so literature.

[Edited on 11.29.2012 10:35 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 10:33 AM PDT

I'm your biggest fan!

I think gaming's too limited to become true art. Gaming has to always, always put gameplay first and plot second. Other media like film and literature don't have this restriction.

So, let's look at gameplay and what it has going for it. When you make a film, it's perfectly acceptable to not have a single action sequence for the whole thing and for that not to affect the quality of it at all. With a game, the audience constantly has to be doing something. Sure, you can throw in cutscenes and in-game dialogue, et cetera but that can only do so much to tell a story.

Even with games like Bioshock and Red Dead Redemption, which are both among my favourite games and often regarded as the pinnacle of in-game story telling, they still don't come close to the likes of The Godfather and all your other classic movies. They're too limited by their nature.

  • 11.29.2012 10:34 AM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: jew man man

Posted by: swvjdirector

That's why I'm majoring in creative writing; I intend to be a writer for a game development company. I want to see the industry grow and be respected in a way nobody has seen yet. I have a lot of passion for the potential ahead of games; I really want to see them reach it. I think that makes it even more upsetting for me to see games that don't even make an effort to fufill that.


I'm actually happy to read this. I completely agree with you, though. Video games have potential to be masterpieces. We've already seem what they're capable of. I know I throw this game around a lot, but Planescape to me is one of the, if not the best example of video game writing we've seen to date. The story itself isn't complex, there are no major plot twists. But the attention to detail and general storytelling of that game is that of literature standard.

Then we've seen games like Shadow of the Colossus, we've seen that such a simple concept can be considered one of the greatest videos of all time. I personally believe that video games have so much potential to be great. I have passion for it. I love seeing a great immersive story-driven game.

I think that's what OP means when he says mature. Rather than the mindless shooters we have now that just focus on getting from point A to point B killing enemies on the way with a thinly veiled story laid gently over top.


You completely nailed down my point. I totally forgot to mention Planescape. You're absolutely right; the writing is some of the best to ever grace a video game, despite its age. The developers proved that writing is a facet that can be excellent no matter when the game is being developed. That's what makes the game special, and that's why I remember it. Clearly games like Planescape: Torment and Shadow of the Colossus leave a lasting impact; isn't that a cue for developers to start working toward that goal? I'll remember a big explosion for a shooter for roughly five seconds; I'll remember scenes from Heavy Rain (yes, maybe I will just marry that game), Planescape, Shadow of the Colossus, Alan Wake, Dear Esther, Journey, and The Unfinished Swan for the rest of my life.

  • 11.29.2012 10:34 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I totally agree with you, but I think you have to appreciate that for mature gaming to happen, the audience has to change. Let me be honest here: A lot of gamers are stupid. Not insulting them, it's just true. Spend a few hours in game chat on most online games and you'll agree. There aren't enough bright sparks to really appreciate mature plotlines, and, by extension, there aren't enough people to back them with their cash.

  • 11.29.2012 10:37 AM PDT

Posted by: Alex Mac Kee
If pen­ises were planes Jimmy's mouth would be an airport


Posted by: DarkBen64
Don't punch a British kid, the queen'll come after you.

What I would like to see

A Postmodernist game

  • 11.29.2012 10:39 AM PDT

I'm your biggest fan!


Posted by: teh Chaz
What I would like to see

A Postmodernist game

A what now?

  • 11.29.2012 10:40 AM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: teh Chaz
Posted by: swvjdirector
This is a very strong and critical point. The trouble, as you said, is that you can't both develop the player character and have them be immersive. It's contradictory. My proposed suggestion would be to have every single word you choose to say, every action, and every interaction, to completely alter the way people view you and how the story unfolds. Is this inredibly difficult? Absolutely, but it would certainly push storytelling to the limit in a way we really haven't seen before. It's what makes characters seem real, in a way.
Then you have the issue of whether the person playing the game is an interesting character themselves.

Also something like that would leave no real room for backstory because the person making all the decisions would not be affected by any fictional past events.

Basically, interactivity limits storytelling because it doesn't allow the writer to create the world and the people within it entirely to their own vision, unlike film and even more so literature.


In balance, though, there's also the possibility for gamers to create a unique and beautiful world entirely their own. We don't know if that's as effective as one created and defined by a writer or not, because we haven't seen games do this yet. There are totally unexplored possibilities in a very unexplored medium. That's what makes gaming exciting for me. If you try to look past the limitations, you can end up finding solutions that you certainly won't see if you don't look.

  • 11.29.2012 10:41 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: RECON828
I think gaming's too limited to become true art. Gaming has to always, always put gameplay first and plot second. Other media like film and literature don't have this restriction.

So, let's look at gameplay and what it has going for it. When you make a film, it's perfectly acceptable to not have a single action sequence for the whole thing and for that not to affect the quality of it at all. With a game, the audience constantly has to be doing something. Sure, you can throw in cutscenes and in-game dialogue, et cetera but that can only do so much to tell a story.

Even with games like Bioshock and Red Dead Redemption, which are both among my favourite games and often regarded as the pinnacle of in-game story telling, they still don't come close to the likes of The Godfather and all your other classic movies. They're too limited by their nature.


I think that this is true to an extent. Right now, the rule, as you said, is "gameplay first, writing second." What if that changed? What if a game focused entirely on the plot, and you just made every decision for the protagonist? Those games suck me in. Sure, there needs to be a balance, but I think too many developers haven't seen the power good writing has yet.

  • 11.29.2012 10:44 AM PDT

Posted by: Alex Mac Kee
If pen­ises were planes Jimmy's mouth would be an airport


Posted by: DarkBen64
Don't punch a British kid, the queen'll come after you.

Posted by: RECON828
Posted by: teh Chaz
What I would like to see

A Postmodernist game

A what now?
It's a cultural movement (well now it's more of a label) that has produced some brilliant film (Pulp Fiction, Donnie Darko, Eraserhead) and literature (Gravity's Rainbow, Infinite Jest, The Third Policeman).

If the styles could somehow be transferred into game form that would be interesting.

[Edited on 11.29.2012 10:46 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 10:44 AM PDT

Posted by: Alex Mac Kee
If pen­ises were planes Jimmy's mouth would be an airport


Posted by: DarkBen64
Don't punch a British kid, the queen'll come after you.

Posted by: swvjdirector
Posted by: teh Chaz
Posted by: swvjdirector
This is a very strong and critical point. The trouble, as you said, is that you can't both develop the player character and have them be immersive. It's contradictory. My proposed suggestion would be to have every single word you choose to say, every action, and every interaction, to completely alter the way people view you and how the story unfolds. Is this inredibly difficult? Absolutely, but it would certainly push storytelling to the limit in a way we really haven't seen before. It's what makes characters seem real, in a way.
Then you have the issue of whether the person playing the game is an interesting character themselves.

Also something like that would leave no real room for backstory because the person making all the decisions would not be affected by any fictional past events.

Basically, interactivity limits storytelling because it doesn't allow the writer to create the world and the people within it entirely to their own vision, unlike film and even more so literature.


In balance, though, there's also the possibility for gamers to create a unique and beautiful world entirely their own. We don't know if that's as effective as one created and defined by a writer or not, because we haven't seen games do this yet. There are totally unexplored possibilities in a very unexplored medium. That's what makes gaming exciting for me. If you try to look past the limitations, you can end up finding solutions that you certainly won't see if you don't look.
I dunno, I think storytelling is the wrong place to look for art in games. I really think that the medium lends itself more to visual art instead.

  • 11.29.2012 10:45 AM PDT

I'm your biggest fan!


Posted by: SorrowSlaying

Posted by: RECON828
I think gaming's too limited to become true art. Gaming has to always, always put gameplay first and plot second. Other media like film and literature don't have this restriction.

So, let's look at gameplay and what it has going for it. When you make a film, it's perfectly acceptable to not have a single action sequence for the whole thing and for that not to affect the quality of it at all. With a game, the audience constantly has to be doing something. Sure, you can throw in cutscenes and in-game dialogue, et cetera but that can only do so much to tell a story.

Even with games like Bioshock and Red Dead Redemption, which are both among my favourite games and often regarded as the pinnacle of in-game story telling, they still don't come close to the likes of The Godfather and all your other classic movies. They're too limited by their nature.


I think that this is true to an extent. Right now, the rule, as you said, is "gameplay first, writing second." What if that changed? What if a game focused entirely on the plot, and you just made every decision for the protagonist? Those games suck me in. Sure, there needs to be a balance, but I think too many developers haven't seen the power good writing has yet.

If you stop prioritising gameplay, you start making an interactive movie or, at the very least, you're sacrificing what makes it a game.

  • 11.29.2012 10:46 AM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: teh Chaz
Posted by: RECON828
Posted by: teh Chaz
What I would like to see

A Postmodernist game

A what now?
It's a cultural movement (well now it's more of a label) that has produced some brilliant film (Pulp Fiction, Donnie Darko, Eraserhead) and literature (Gravity's Rainbow, Infinite Jest, The Third Policeman).

If the style could somehow be transferred into game form that would be interesting.


There you go, driving my point home. There's a totally unexplored possibility just waiting to be fleshed out. Do you really expect it to happen, though? Not likely, certainly not with the current industry. That's too bad, because it sounds really interesting. I feel like so many cool ideas are discarded because they don't make money. A valid reason, sure, but that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed about it.

  • 11.29.2012 10:47 AM PDT

Posted by: Alex Mac Kee
If pen­ises were planes Jimmy's mouth would be an airport


Posted by: DarkBen64
Don't punch a British kid, the queen'll come after you.

Posted by: SorrowSlaying
Right now, the rule, as you said, is "gameplay first, writing second." What if that changed? What if a game focused entirely on the plot, and you just made every decision for the protagonist?
Then you're just making a "choose your own adventure" movie.

The game aspect is pretty small in that.

  • 11.29.2012 10:47 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"The one who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The one who walks alone, is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been."
-Albert Einstein

"To live is the rarest thing in the word. Most people exist, that is all"
-Oscar Wilde

Steam


Posted by: SorrowSlaying
Right now, the rule, as you said, is "gameplay first, writing second." What if that changed? What if a game focused entirely on the plot, and you just made every decision for the protagonist? Those games suck me in. Sure, there needs to be a balance, but I think too many developers haven't seen the power good writing has yet.


Likewise. I'd like to see a game built around an idea. I'd like to see a game built around a plot, a protagonist, a city. I hate when games are built around the gameplay.

  • 11.29.2012 10:48 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Braid was a bad game. Not sure why everyone thought it was so good and deep.

  • 11.29.2012 10:48 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: teh Chaz
Posted by: SorrowSlaying
Right now, the rule, as you said, is "gameplay first, writing second." What if that changed? What if a game focused entirely on the plot, and you just made every decision for the protagonist?
Then you're just making a "choose your own adventure" movie.

The game aspect is pretty small in that.


Fair point. But let's look beyond even that: What makes a game , anyway? Is it something purely for entertainment? If so, that seems really limited. Some of the gaming experiences I've had stick with me even more than literature or movies, because they're even more intense. It's, for fear of sounding childish, like I'm there and involved. That seems beautiful to me in a way no other medium ever can.

  • 11.29.2012 10:50 AM PDT

I'm your biggest fan!


Posted by: teh Chaz
Posted by: RECON828
Posted by: teh Chaz
What I would like to see

A Postmodernist game

A what now?
It's a cultural movement (well now it's more of a label) that has produced some brilliant film (Pulp Fiction, Donnie Darko, Eraserhead) and literature (Gravity's Rainbow, Infinite Jest, The Third Policeman).

If the styles could somehow be transferred into game form that would be interesting.

But what does it actually mean? What would a post modernist game look like?

As a side note, Donnie Darko was trash.

  • 11.29.2012 10:50 AM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: SorrowSlaying
Right now, the rule, as you said, is "gameplay first, writing second." What if that changed? What if a game focused entirely on the plot, and you just made every decision for the protagonist? Those games suck me in. Sure, there needs to be a balance, but I think too many developers haven't seen the power good writing has yet.


This is partially why I like independent developers so much. They don't have the resources or manpower of big development teams. What they do have is the raw passion to take an idea they love and make it come to life as best they can. They don't care if it sells, or if many people play it. They care about crafting an experience that's never been seen before, that's unique and fresh and fascinating. Similarly, games like Journey have that same feel. It communicates to me the idea of the developers saying "Look, we want you guys to see this. We want you to be a part of this." That's worth so much more to me than gameplay ever could be.



[Edited on 11.29.2012 10:55 AM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 10:53 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: swvjdirector

Posted by: SorrowSlaying
Right now, the rule, as you said, is "gameplay first, writing second." What if that changed? What if a game focused entirely on the plot, and you just made every decision for the protagonist? Those games suck me in. Sure, there needs to be a balance, but I think too many developers haven't seen the power good writing has yet.


This is partially why I like independent developers so much. They don't have the resources or manpower of big development teams. What they do have is the raw passion to take an idea they love and make it come to life as best they can. They don't care if it sells, or if many people play it. They care about crafting an experience that's never been seen before, that's unique and fresh and fascinating. Similarly, games like Journey have that same feel. It communicates to me the idea of the developers saying "Look, we want you guys to see this. We want you to be a part of this." That's worth so much more to me than gameplay ever could be.



Taking the words right out of my mouth. These are the ideas that get me excited about gaming, that make me love it. When I see something like this, that enraptures and enthralls me, I just can't let it go. It reminds me how much I like this medium and how much I hope it succeeds.

  • 11.29.2012 10:57 AM PDT

Butt ugly ape” remarked Sergeant Johnson always making fun out of the situation even though he had been hit by a spiker round in the arm. He mustered up the strength to continue and the team moved on. The Arbiter informed him that the next room held The Prophet of Truth and this was the final room before extraction. Jun proposed that he takes a shot from a distance the prophet and they all head back to the ship bay for extraction. The team agreed on this and breached the last door…

As long as it makes $$$$$$


Hold up let me change that to $$$$$$$$

  • 11.29.2012 10:59 AM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: Dobatch
Braid was a bad game. Not sure why everyone thought it was so good and deep.


I think the story was just so subjective, so open to interpretation, and that something like that had happened so little, made it cool. It's still not something we see much.

  • 11.29.2012 10:59 AM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3