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Subject: Is it easy to have a sad story with an antagonist.

No walking dead spoilers below:

Hey flood. I'm really into writing. Movies, books, video games; Cant get enough of the stuff. I literally have pages upon pages-archives of stories i want to tell the world. The select few people who have seen have had nothing but positives.

But I have a question to those writing fanatics out there. Is it easy to have a sad story with a hated antagonist?

I recently bought and completed the walking dead (part of my purchase spree of various critically acclaimed post apocalyptic games out there). I found myself getting so mixed up with the stories of these characters and sadness overwhelmed me by the end of it all. But thats just it. Sadness is what I wish to capture. And yes, even though its a zombie apocalypse (not the most original concept) I liked it because of that. When calamity befell the groups and sadness and anger settled in, it was often directionless.

I want to capture that as I am writing about something of an alien apocalypse (TRUST me, its not what you think.)
But I keep finding that throughout the story whenever similar hardships became apparent, the initial and natural reaction would be hatred to these alien beings and not sadness based on the calamity itself.

Should the antagonist be faceless? Would that help direct attention away from him/it and more to the exact incident? What do the more literature friendly floodians think?

[Edited on 11.29.2012 2:30 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 2:28 PM PDT

I'm not a psycho. I'm cool. Calm your nipples.


Posted by: JohnyRL
Should the [i] antagonist [i] be faceless??
I wouldn't know. What are the i's doing in those brackets?

  • 11.29.2012 2:29 PM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

What? Are you asking something along the lines of "can I make you sympathetic towards someone evil?"?

  • 11.29.2012 2:29 PM PDT

Fixed. Dont often use italics.
Posted by: Jeff_The_Killer

Posted by: JohnyRL
Should the [i] antagonist [i] be faceless??
I wouldn't know. What are the i's doing in those brackets?

  • 11.29.2012 2:30 PM PDT

Something like that. Sorry for the vague question by the way. More, how can I make a story with an antagonist sad without that sadness being sidelined by anger towards said antagonist.
If that makes any sense.
Posted by: Bungie Sam
What? Are you asking something along the lines of "can I make you sympathetic towards someone evil?"?

  • 11.29.2012 2:32 PM PDT

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

In my opinion relatable and understandable antagonists doing supposed wrongs for a good/sad reason is the best type of antagonist.

I don't imagine it being easy to write though.

  • 11.29.2012 2:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: ListenClosely
bane: lets not stand on ceremony here mr wayne
batman: ok
bane: your punishment must be more severe
batman: im gothams rekoning
bane: me too
batman: oh


Posted by: McNut117
In my opinion relatable and understandable antagonists doing supposed wrongs for a good/sad reason is the best type of antagonist.

I don't imagine it being easy to write though.

  • 11.29.2012 2:33 PM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra

You'd have to do some serious background research on the 'hated antagonist' to check if there's anything people will show sympathy towards.
And obviously the unfortunate event of the hated antagonist would have to outweigh their negative acts.

[Edited on 11.29.2012 2:35 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 2:34 PM PDT

Proud Spartan II, COG soldier, Hero of time, and crowbar wielding scientist.


Posted by: JohnyRL
Fixed. Dont often use italics.
Posted by: Jeff_The_Killer

Posted by: JohnyRL
Should the antagonist be faceless??
I wouldn't know. What are the i's doing in those brackets?

Like this.

  • 11.29.2012 2:34 PM PDT

My troll sense is tingling.

Yes, especially with a sympathetic antagonist. Heavy Rain is something of a modern classic example.

Going more to your point, however; It's not so much the fact that the villain is faceless but that the characters are sympathetic. The Walking Dead: A young girl who a convicted murderer has to protect. The characters are fleshed out, sympathetic and relatable. In fact I consider Clementine one of the best child characters in fiction.

I'm writing a novel, a series in fact. In it the faceless villain trope is zigzagged constantly with the various villains but the emotional core remains the same.

  • 11.29.2012 2:35 PM PDT

Thanks guys. Thats just the thing. As I should of said before, antagonist is a wrong word to use. As I said in the OP, I'm writing with a setting of something along the lines of a alien-post apocalypse (Your initial reaction mind be that that sounds generic, but trust me, its nothing like what it sounds. Its difficult to make aliens relatable. For obvious reasons and for very specific reason related to my plot. As some say: What do?

  • 11.29.2012 2:44 PM PDT
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Darth Vader is supposed to be an example of this.

Menendez from BO II is also an example.

  • 11.29.2012 2:46 PM PDT

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Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers

It's cliche and generic to have the antagonist fueled by a rage built up from sadness. If the audience sympathizes with the antagonist then they are less likely to take them seriously and they may even expect him to do some good.

If that's what you want then go for it, but I prefer stories where the antagonist is motivated by something else other than personal loss/sadness. Things include greed, pride, jealously, lust for power, a distorted perspective of reality, a sadistic mindset, etc.

But they're doing bad because bad was done to them? Meh. It's too predictable. You'd expect the line "You took everything from me. Now I'm simply returning the favor"

Revenge is just a boring concept for villains/antagonists.

Also, I don't like antagonists behind masks because you then have to write in a bunch of supporting characters to expand upon their character.

[Edited on 11.29.2012 2:51 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 2:47 PM PDT


Posted by: darthnazgul
Yes, especially with a sympathetic antagonist. Heavy Rain is something of a modern classic example.

Going more to your point, however; It's not so much the fact that the villain is faceless but that the characters are sympathetic. The Walking Dead: A young girl who a convicted murderer has to protect. The characters are fleshed out, sympathetic and relatable. In fact I consider Clementine one of the best child characters in fiction.

I'm writing a novel, a series in fact. In it the faceless villain trope is zigzagged constantly with the various villains but the emotional core remains the same.


I originally had something like this but scrapped it. The alien apocalypse thing is set in stone. But whenever, in my story, something rightfully depressing occurs, the character's sadness feels misplaced.

Think about a relative or loved one being murdered (not in my story, just an example). For most people (or for a lot of people) sadness is there, but anger is the foremost and most apparent of emotions. I dont want that. Sadness is what I want to capture. True sadness.

  • 11.29.2012 2:48 PM PDT

I agree. But take into account the alien apocalypse thing I mentioned. Its too easy for someone's emotions to reflect. DAMN THOSE ALIEN SONS OF -blam!-ES than sadness at this point in the story.
Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
It's cliche and generic to have the antagonist fueled by a rage built up from sadness. If the audience sympathizes with the antagonist then they are less likely to take them seriously and they may even expect him to do some good.

If that's what you want then go for it, but I prefer stories where the antagonist is motivated by something else other than personal loss/sadness. Things include greed, pride, jealously, lust for power, a distorted perspective of reality, a sadistic mindset, etc.

But they're doing bad because bad was done to them? Meh. It's too predictable. You'd expect the line "You took everything from me. Now I'm simply returning the favor"

Revenge is just a boring concept for villains/antagonists.

  • 11.29.2012 2:51 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers

I'm also writing a story by the way, and I'm trying to convey that feeling of hopelessness and sadness without making it seem apocalyptic or 'invasion-like'. I sort of want the story to unfold from the inside out and the main character to turn from a curious and out-going archetype into a more hardened, conservative, and resistant one. I also think it would be interesting to have the primary antagonist start off strong but wane in their campaign as they realize the scale of what they have done. However, it has to be a delicate balance where they do not compromise their views or offer much hope of redemption.



[Edited on 11.29.2012 2:55 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 2:54 PM PDT
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I understand nothing because my life is a conspiracy.

Probably because you can't be angry at zombies; they didn't purposely become like that and then target your friends and family. Zombies aren't really an enemy, they're just a deadly object that's between you and what you need to survive. Aliens, in your case, are usually portrayed (when villainous) as intelligent creatures who exterminate, alla War of the Worlds. If you try to mimic this by giving the Aliens a very basic drive, then it will not become a very interesting story. I have two suggestions:

1.) Make the main protagonist bent on revenge, thusly getting many people killed by this obsession. It'll cause some drama between your band of survivors, which creates emotional moments.

2.) Make it post-apocalyptic. You know, a scorched earth sort of thing. This way, save the few survivors, the environment will be the obstacle instead of an enemy, which means you cannot fight back, but survive.

Well, that's all I got for now. Man, I really got to start writing this stuff down . . .

[Edited on 11.29.2012 2:56 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2012 2:56 PM PDT

My troll sense is tingling.

It's not impossible to make aliens relatable. But again, the key ingredient for sadness - ESPECIALLY in a setting that's related to an apocalypse or disaster of sorts - are characters that you root for. Relatablity, sympathy, likability, these are things that can help draw sadness to a character.

As for characters feeling more angry than sad and you don't want that? Well, how would the characters react to the situation. Get into their head; How significance is the loss? What has the character thought about the lost one? What was their link? What were they doing when the loss happened? Who is to blame?

Those are all ways of figuring out how a character would react, along with their personality as a canvas of sorts. If it's anger, it can still work, just keep in mind for the characters to genuinely miss the lost one.

  • 11.29.2012 2:56 PM PDT

I like that. I hope all goes well with your story man.
Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
I'm also writing a story by the way, and I'm trying to convey that feeling of hopelessness and sadness without making it seem apocalyptic or 'invasion-like'. I sort of want the story to unfold from the inside out and the main character to turn from a curious and out-going archetype into a more hardened, conservative, and resistant one. I also think it would be interesting to have the primary antagonist start off strong but wane in their campaign as they realize the scale of what they have done. However, it has to be a delicate balance where they do not compromise their views or offer much hope of redemption.

  • 11.29.2012 2:59 PM PDT
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Yeah its completely possible. If anyone here watches Sons of Anarchy, a good example would be when Clay broke down crying in this week's episode.

He's a man that has done some pretty horrible things, but believes it is for the greater good. And in the process, he loses everything he cares about and you see this hard, evil man break down and cry on your TV and it really got to me. For once throughout the whole show I actually felt bad for the guy.

  • 11.29.2012 3:00 PM PDT

Second one already covered. But I straying away from the dusty brown post apocalyptic setting. So scorched earth wouldnt quit cut it.

And I'm grateful for the advice, but Im not sure where you are getting at with the vengeful protagonist thing. The idea that rage fueling folks is exactly what Im trying to avoid.
Posted by: lime013
Probably because you can't be angry at zombies; they didn't purposely become like that and then target your friends and family. Zombies aren't really an enemy, they're just a deadly object that's between you and what you need to survive. Aliens, in your case, are usually portrayed (when villainous) as intelligent creatures who exterminate, alla War of the Worlds. If you try to mimic this by giving the Aliens a very basic drive, then it will not become a very interesting story. I have two suggestions:

1.) Make the main protagonist bent on revenge, thusly getting many people killed by this obsession. It'll cause some drama between your band of survivors, which creates emotional moments.

2.) Make it post-apocalyptic. You know, a scorched earth sort of thing. This way, save the few survivors, the environment will be the obstacle instead of an enemy, which means you cannot fight back, but survive.

Well, that's all I got for now. Man, I really got to start writing this stuff down . . .

  • 11.29.2012 3:02 PM PDT


Posted by: darthnazgul
It's not impossible to make aliens relatable. But again, the key ingredient for sadness - ESPECIALLY in a setting that's related to an apocalypse or disaster of sorts - are characters that you root for. Relatablity, sympathy, likability, these are things that can help draw sadness to a character.

As for characters feeling more angry than sad and you don't want that? Well, how would the characters react to the situation. Get into their head; How significance is the loss? What has the character thought about the lost one? What was their link? What were they doing when the loss happened? Who is to blame?

Those are all ways of figuring out how a character would react, along with their personality as a canvas of sorts. If it's anger, it can still work, just keep in mind for the characters to genuinely miss the lost one.

Who is to blame is my main problem. I dont want that blame to rest solely on these beings. That's why I was considering them being faceless.
And let me rephrase. Anger does play a role. It ought to. But I dont want it to be the primary thing that fuels characters.

  • 11.29.2012 3:06 PM PDT

Proving difficult to do with non-human beings.
Posted by: Dobatch
Yeah its completely possible. If anyone here watches Sons of Anarchy, a good example would be when Clay broke down crying in this week's episode.

He's a man that has done some pretty horrible things, but believes it is for the greater good. And in the process, he loses everything he cares about and you see this hard, evil man break down and cry on your TV and it really got to me. For once throughout the whole show I actually felt bad for the guy.

  • 11.29.2012 3:07 PM PDT

My troll sense is tingling.


Posted by: JohnyRL

Posted by: darthnazgul
It's not impossible to make aliens relatable. But again, the key ingredient for sadness - ESPECIALLY in a setting that's related to an apocalypse or disaster of sorts - are characters that you root for. Relatablity, sympathy, likability, these are things that can help draw sadness to a character.

As for characters feeling more angry than sad and you don't want that? Well, how would the characters react to the situation. Get into their head; How significance is the loss? What has the character thought about the lost one? What was their link? What were they doing when the loss happened? Who is to blame?

Those are all ways of figuring out how a character would react, along with their personality as a canvas of sorts. If it's anger, it can still work, just keep in mind for the characters to genuinely miss the lost one.

Who is to blame is my main problem. I dont want that blame to rest solely on these beings. That's why I was considering them being faceless.
And let me rephrase. Anger does play a role. It ought to. But I dont want it to be the primary thing that fuels characters.

A good way to deal with that is have some of the Human characters take the blame. Again, The Walking Dead is a great example of this.

  • 11.29.2012 3:09 PM PDT

That actually completely flews past my head.
Yea. That's what Ill do (of course in a more interesting way though).
But when people are dead and it all comes down to it (grand finale) should previous sadnesses fuel a protagonist's anger in the final run? I'd like to end of a sad though (not in the traditional sense though.)


Gah, I Guess some stuff will come to me over time.
Posted by: darthnazgul

Posted by: JohnyRL

Posted by: darthnazgul
It's not impossible to make aliens relatable. But again, the key ingredient for sadness - ESPECIALLY in a setting that's related to an apocalypse or disaster of sorts - are characters that you root for. Relatablity, sympathy, likability, these are things that can help draw sadness to a character.

As for characters feeling more angry than sad and you don't want that? Well, how would the characters react to the situation. Get into their head; How significance is the loss? What has the character thought about the lost one? What was their link? What were they doing when the loss happened? Who is to blame?

Those are all ways of figuring out how a character would react, along with their personality as a canvas of sorts. If it's anger, it can still work, just keep in mind for the characters to genuinely miss the lost one.

Who is to blame is my main problem. I dont want that blame to rest solely on these beings. That's why I was considering them being faceless.
And let me rephrase. Anger does play a role. It ought to. But I dont want it to be the primary thing that fuels characters.

A good way to deal with that is have some of the Human characters take the blame. Again, The Walking Dead is a great example of this.

  • 11.29.2012 3:18 PM PDT

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