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Subject: Question on specifics of NSFW and ToU "obscenity"

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Related: http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76127831

After the locking of the above thread, Foman encouraged us to make a new thread that called to question the specifics on what we should and should not consider objectionable content under NSFW. While such matters will always have a gray area, the rules are largely useless in aiding those who are confused as to what content would be considered obscene in the workplace. Obscenity itself can mean many things, it is a matter of ethics and is often backed by law, and in certain countries it can related to speech, adult films, or even the dress of certain people (ie: Burqas).

It is too much to ask for every single objectionable content to be listed; however, a guideline on another side or perhaps the laws and court rulings of a specific state or region may be helpful. Much is questionable, because in certain areas adult films may be obscene, and in others they are perfectly legal.

Recently, the rules and even the Code of Conduct have been heavily simplified in a move to make them more readable. However, this move ultimately made it much more difficult for users who wish to post questionable material and are unsure whether it would be in accordance with the rules.

While adult pictures and films are specified by the moderation team as unfit, I am confused as to what standard, or perhaps what workplace in NSFW, this stems from.

I conclude this a layover question for Atomic Tea, sorry to waste space, but the previous thread was locked.Posted by: Atomic Tea
2: Nudity (exposed skin, since you want me to be ultra-specific) falls under the "What is safe, and not safe for work" category. It doesn't matter what your place of employment is. Bungie.net has members that are under the age of 18, and thus you cannot post that kind of material, even if it is considered "safe" in your line of work. Why? Because it violates U.S. law and thus the Bungie Code of Conduct.

We're talking about adult materials, not nudity in the workplace, right? I am unfamiliar with a law that prohibits viewing adult film in the workplace, or the viewing of adult films by someone under the age of 18 (not to be confused with adult films depicting someone under the age of 18). Could you tell me which federal laws these are? I would like to know.



[Edited on 12.02.2012 6:43 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 6:42 PM PDT

In a time long past, the armies of the dark came again to the lands of men. Their leaders became known as the fallen lords, and their terrible sorcery was without equal in the west.
In 30 years they reduced the civilized nations into carrion and ash. Until the free city of Madrigal alone defined them. An army gathered there, and a desperate battle was joined against the fallen
Heros were born in the fire and bloodshed of the wars which followed and their names and deeds will never be forgotten

I say use common sense.

Recon number 54 posted pics of a nude guy on a statue.

  • 12.02.2012 6:46 PM PDT

Key

If someone would not be allowed to walk around in public in the clothing (or lack thereof) they're in in the picture you post, it's nudity and isn't allowed to be posted.

©

  • 12.02.2012 6:49 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: spartain ken 15
I say use common sense.
Common sense only works for driving and language*. There is no such thing as common sense when it comes to ethics, and common sense itself is intrinsic and specific only to the individual. It brings about the Burqa example, what may be "common sense" obscenity for me may not be for you.

If someone would not be allowed to walk around in public in the clothing (or lack thereof) they're in in the picture you post, it's nudity and isn't allowed to be posted.So any pictures of women not wearing Burqas is a bannable offense?

[Edited on 12.02.2012 6:54 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 6:50 PM PDT

Ad Infinitum

It's REALLY simple. If it meets the Miller Test (tested by Congress) then it is ILLEGAL for EVERYONE. In the United States, it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE to distribute pornographic material to ANYONE that is UNDER the age of 18. Why do you think strip clubs require an ID?

Since Bungie.net has members that are well under 18, they cannot legally allow you to distribute pornographic material on their website. Obviously this counts as NSFW.

"But what about simple nudity, like a nudist posing for a photograph next to a pretty mountain?" This is where things get gray.

[Edited on 12.02.2012 6:59 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 6:55 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: Atomic Tea
It's REALLY simple. If it meets the Miller Test (tested by Congress) then it is ILLEGAL for EVERYONE. In the United States, it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE to distribute pornographic material to ANYONE that is UNDER the age of 18. Why do you think strip clubs require an ID?
So it's by the standards of the community? That's rather subjective, and every community even within the U.S. is different. 18 may be the age of majority from where you're from but you still haven't pointed out a federal law which states that it's illegal for people under 18 to view such materials. You've just named the legal standard for classifying obscenity as to whether or not a material is legal or protected by freedom of speech/expression. So are we to define obscenity by Bungie's location, the webserver's location, or our location?

Since Bungie.net has members that are well under 18, they cannot legally allow you to distribute pornographic material on their website. Obviously this counts as NSFW.The ToU clearly states "Bungie does not claim ownership of the images, video, text, or other materials you provide to Bungie (including feedback and suggestions) or post, upload, input or submit to any Bungie Service or associated services (collectively "Submissions"), to the extent what you post does not include materials provided to you or otherwise owned by Bungie or its licensees." Wouldn't thus the legal responsibility fall to the user, and if in a private group of users known to be over 18, be perfectly legal?

[Edited on 12.02.2012 7:02 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 7:01 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
If someone would not be allowed to walk around in public in the clothing (or lack thereof) they're in in the picture you post, it's nudity and isn't allowed to be posted.So any pictures of women not wearing Burqas is a bannable offense?
In America.

©

  • 12.02.2012 7:12 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
If someone would not be allowed to walk around in public in the clothing (or lack thereof) they're in in the picture you post, it's nudity and isn't allowed to be posted.So any pictures of women not wearing Burqas is a bannable offense?
In America.
©
Where in America? I'm not aware of an federal laws that dictate attire. In Oregon public nudity is perfectly legal.

  • 12.02.2012 7:16 PM PDT

What are you on about again duck?

  • 12.02.2012 7:25 PM PDT

Ad Infinitum


Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
Posted by: Atomic Tea
It's REALLY simple. If it meets the Miller Test (tested by Congress) then it is ILLEGAL for EVERYONE. In the United States, it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE to distribute pornographic material to ANYONE that is UNDER the age of 18. Why do you think strip clubs require an ID?
So it's by the standards of the community? That's rather subjective, and every community even within the U.S. is different. 18 may be the age of majority from where you're from but you still haven't pointed out a federal law which states that it's illegal for people under 18 to view such materials.


18 U.S.C. § 1470 : US Code - Section 1470: Transfer of Obscene Material to Minors

It's not illegal to view it. It's illegal to distribute it.

[Edited on 12.02.2012 7:27 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 7:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

If you wouldn't want your 8-year-old sister to see it, don't post it.

If this remains unclear, feel free to post a link to a questionable picture. If you receive a long ban, you'll know you're over the line.

  • 12.02.2012 7:28 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: Atomic Tea
18 U.S.C. § 1470 : US Code - Section 1470: Transfer of obscene material to minors

It's not illegl to view it. It's illegal to distribute it.
Thanks that's pretty helpful. 16 not 18, but that's details. What bugs me still is what defines obscenity? You said to use the Miller Test, but from what community do you think we should base it from? Should it be Bungie HQ, should it be our location, or should it be the location of the recipient (especially since they're the one that this law exists to protect)?

Posted by:x Foman123 x
If you wouldn't want your 8-year-old sister to see it, don't post it.
I don't have an 8-year-old sister. Do I have to borrow one?

If this remains unclear, feel free to post a link to a questionable picture. If you receive a long ban, you'll know you're over the line.I'm sure most users would prefer not to be banned. Shouldn't we have a clear standard to avoid such complications? Should bans really be the first line of clarity?

[Edited on 12.02.2012 7:31 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 7:29 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
If someone would not be allowed to walk around in public in the clothing (or lack thereof) they're in in the picture you post, it's nudity and isn't allowed to be posted.So any pictures of women not wearing Burqas is a bannable offense?
In America.
©
Where in America? I'm not aware of an federal laws that dictate attire. In Oregon public nudity is perfectly legal.
In Pennsylvania.

©

  • 12.02.2012 7:34 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
In Pennsylvania.

©
Are you sure?

  • 12.02.2012 7:36 PM PDT

In a time long past, the armies of the dark came again to the lands of men. Their leaders became known as the fallen lords, and their terrible sorcery was without equal in the west.
In 30 years they reduced the civilized nations into carrion and ash. Until the free city of Madrigal alone defined them. An army gathered there, and a desperate battle was joined against the fallen
Heros were born in the fire and bloodshed of the wars which followed and their names and deeds will never be forgotten

if we are going to talk laws, what are the laws in Washington?

  • 12.02.2012 7:39 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: spartain ken 15
if we are going to talk laws, what are the laws in Washington?
So then laws are the deciding factor to NSFW content?

  • 12.02.2012 7:40 PM PDT

I would say if you have to question yourself on whether or not the material is safe to post, then I wouldn't post it. But that's just my opinion

  • 12.02.2012 7:44 PM PDT

In a time long past, the armies of the dark came again to the lands of men. Their leaders became known as the fallen lords, and their terrible sorcery was without equal in the west.
In 30 years they reduced the civilized nations into carrion and ash. Until the free city of Madrigal alone defined them. An army gathered there, and a desperate battle was joined against the fallen
Heros were born in the fire and bloodshed of the wars which followed and their names and deeds will never be forgotten


Posted by: SilverBulitt82
I would say if you have to question yourself on whether or not the material is safe to post, then I wouldn't post it. But that's just my opinion


Bungie.net is not the place to post nude photos and I don't see it being necessary.

  • 12.02.2012 7:46 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: SilverBulitt82
I would say if you have to question yourself on whether or not the material is safe to post, then I wouldn't post it. But that's just my opinion
I question everything I post, especially this thread. The rules require us to post relevant and appropriate content, and as to what degree relevance becomes irrelevance will never be clear. If we are never certain as to what is or is not appropriate (which is the matter at hand), then by your opinion we should never post at all.

Posted by:sparten ken 15
Bungie.net is not the place to post nude photos and I don't see it being necessary.
We must be concerned with the why, for understanding the why helps us understand the standard by which things other than nude photos may be appropriate or inappropriate.
Do you know why?

[Edited on 12.02.2012 7:48 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 7:46 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
In Pennsylvania.

©
Are you sure?
Yes.

©

[Edited on 12.02.2012 8:30 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 8:30 PM PDT

Perpetual Ninja in training.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

DMH

Los Paranoias

Um dude OP, NSFW means Not Suitable For Work, as in, if your damn boss saw it on your damn computer, your damn ass would be god damn fired.



Jesus, you all really over analyze things that are quite simple. Damn. It isn't all that hard to understand, and there is no need to bring feds into this discussion, it has nothing to do with the rule.

  • 12.02.2012 8:35 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: edableshoe
Um dude OP, NSFW means Not Suitable For Work, as in, if your damn boss saw it on your damn computer, your damn ass would be god damn fired.



Jesus, you all really over analyze things that are quite simple. Damn. It isn't all that hard to understand, and there is no need to bring feds into this discussion, it has nothing to do with the rule.
But shoe, everyone's workplace is different. Currently, my boss is pretty lax about such things so long as they don't interfere with productivity. So NSFW would mean anything that interferes with productivity? So I can't discuss games or solitaire or minesweeper? I don't think this boss standard is a good idea, because that's really subjective.

  • 12.02.2012 8:43 PM PDT

Key

Typically, the NSFW tag is used in e-mail, videos, and on interactive discussion areas (such as Internet forums, blogs, or community websites) to mark URLs or hyperlinks which contain material such as nudity, -blam!- or profanity, which the viewer may not want to be seen accessing in a public or formal setting such as at work.-Wikipedia

©

[Edited on 12.02.2012 8:47 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 8:47 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Typically, the NSFW tag is used in e-mail, videos, and on interactive discussion areas (such as Internet forums, blogs, or community websites) to mark URLs or hyperlinks which contain material such as nudity, -blam!- or profanity, which the viewer may not want to be seen accessing in a public or formal setting such as at work.-Wikipedia

©
"Such as" doesn't really help other than for those three things, which may not even be the case in our own set of rules. Also, what classifies something as profanity? God forbid you're saying we can't post blasphemy.

  • 12.02.2012 8:53 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Typically, the NSFW tag is used in e-mail, videos, and on interactive discussion areas (such as Internet forums, blogs, or community websites) to mark URLs or hyperlinks which contain material such as nudity, -blam!- or profanity, which the viewer may not want to be seen accessing in a public or formal setting such as at work.-Wikipedia

©
"Such as" doesn't really help other than for those three things, which may not even be the case in our own set of rules. Also, what classifies something as profanity? God forbid you're saying we can't post blasphemy.
I'd say BNet's NSFW is mainly concerned with illegal substances, nudity, -blam!-, and bypassing the -blam!- filter. Though anything else is up to moderator discretion so if you're banned for something that isn't one of those four things you still have no defense.

©

  • 12.02.2012 8:57 PM PDT

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