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Subject: Question on specifics of NSFW and ToU "obscenity"

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Though anything else is up to moderator discretion so if you're banned for something that isn't one of those four things you still have no defense.
©
No defense? For violating a rule that isn't stated? Don't you see the problem here? NSFW means something more, and we need to find out, because there being "no such rule" is the ideal defense.

  • 12.02.2012 9:00 PM PDT

Key

Do you actually expect them to list every possible thing that could be considered NSFW? That's just ridiculous.

©

  • 12.02.2012 9:03 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Do you actually expect them to list every possible thing that could be considered NSFW? That's just ridiculous.

©
No, and I stated so in the OP, please read it. I want a guideline, because the rules are designed to stop people from posting inappropriate content, but the rules are also pointless if they don't even provide a framework of what should and shouldn't be NSFW.

  • 12.02.2012 9:05 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

In other words, you want us to spell out what you can and can't do on this site because you can't be bothered to exercise your own faculties?

The rules have a clause that says "use common sense" for a reason.

  • 12.02.2012 9:15 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: BobBQ
In other words, you want us to spell out what you can and can't do on this site because you can't be bothered to exercise your own faculties?
Guidelines would be helpful, but ultimately it's pointless to have rules as vague as our current set. Rules are designed to aid the posting process, and ours are posted so that users know what they can post without disrupting discussion. If rules are extremely vague, such matters are not clear and users are either forced to not post or left to the mercy of the highly subjective and moody interpretation of the moderation team. If you don't want to detail what shouldn't be posted, why post rules in the first place?

The rules have a clause that says "use common sense" for a reason.Common sense is an intrinsic perception that differs by every person and societal context. What may be "common sense" about thermodynamics might be different for others. In turn, there is no "common sense" when it comes to ethics and etiquette. There is no such thing as common sense in this case, only a misplaced belief that everyone else share's the exact same opinions to you as to what is and is not obscene or objectionable.
Common sense may be to not post a picture of a woman who is not wearing a Burqa, common sense may be to greet everyone in the forum before starting a conversation. What you're asking is impossible.

[Edited on 12.02.2012 9:25 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 9:24 PM PDT

Is this really necessary?

Think about it. This is a gaming website. Most people here talk about games. We do have an off topic forum where "anything goes", provided it doesn't break the rules. But do we even need to consider what "NSFW" and "SFW" really are?

There are literally thousands of other topics we can discuss. NSFW content exists on literally thousands of other websites, and there are several forums dedicated solely to that discussion. If you really want to discuss NSFW items, then I would strongly encourage you to take it to another site.

If you don't like the "grey area" of authority that the developers have given the dedicated members of the community, then I'd strongly suggest either

Getting over it
Leaving the site
Taking it up with management.

That's just my two cents.

  • 12.02.2012 9:46 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: Navweb3620
Is this really necessary?
As necessary as the rules.

Think about it. This is a gaming website. Most people here talk about games. We do have an off topic forum where "anything goes", provided it doesn't break the rules. But do we even need to consider what "NSFW" and "SFW" really are?I don't think arguing for ignorance is a good idea. If you don't like a topic of discussion, there are plenty of others. This discussion spawned from another thread, so clearly it is discussed.

There are literally thousands of other topics we can discuss. NSFW content exists on literally thousands of other websites, and there are several forums dedicated solely to that discussion. If you really want to discuss NSFW items, then I would strongly encourage you to take it to another site.That is not what this topic is discussing.

If you don't like the "grey area" of authority that the developers have given the dedicated members of the community, then I'd strongly suggest either

Getting over it
Leaving the site
This is very helpful, thanks!
Taking it up with management.This is not a private matter. It concerns every user here, and frankly I feel that if something is revealed here, it should be added to the rules because everyone holds opportunity to benefit from it.

  • 12.02.2012 9:55 PM PDT
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Come on duck, don't be that guy.

  • 12.02.2012 10:03 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: Elite Mouse
Come on duck, don't be that guy.
You're right. How dare I ask for clarification! What could I possibly be thinking? I should just leave the system vague and unhelpful.

  • 12.02.2012 10:04 PM PDT

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Posted by: x Foman123 x
If you wouldn't want your 8-year-old sister to see it, don't post it.

If this remains unclear, feel free to post a link to a questionable picture. If you receive a long ban, you'll know you're over the line.
Are you advocating the learning of the rules using trial and error?

[Edited on 12.02.2012 10:09 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 10:08 PM PDT

Hi. My name is Sean. I've been a Bungie fan since Halo launched. Some of my interests include games, exercising, laser tag, martial arts, movies, music, sports, and technology. Feel free to contact me at any time.

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Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
I'm sure most users would prefer not to be banned. Shouldn't we have a clear standard to avoid such complications? Should bans really be the first line of clarity?
I understand the point you're trying to make. I agree that clarifying rules would cause less confusion in regards to what is a violation. I think you're taking Foman's post the wrong way.

Active users should know what topics/content can be shared and what cannot. Topics/content that may or may not be in violation of the rules is known as the gray area. Newcomers should avoid the gray area until they observe the forums and have a good sense of what types of threads get locked. Mythics are more than welcome to post topics/content from the gray area, but they're doing so at their own risk.

My suggestion would be to run your ideas by a moderator via PM. Although a moderator cannot "approve" posts, their words of wisdom will hopefully give you the clarification you need. Bungie's games are geared toward a 17+ audience, but this website is 13+. With that in mind, it doesn't surprise me that Bungie made changes to their guidelines. They want to keep things simple, but on the other hand, some things need to be clarified. Almost everything has pros and cons.

[Edited on 12.02.2012 10:22 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 10:18 PM PDT

When I grow up I want to be bitter and spiteful.

"i liked the reality where everything was on fire better"
-legato on remedial chaos theory

Posted by: Cryptic
Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
I'm sure most users would prefer not to be banned. Shouldn't we have a clear standard to avoid such complications? Should bans really be the first line of clarity?
I understand the point you're trying to make. I agree that clarifying rules would cause less confusion in regards to what is a violation. I think you're taking Foman's post the wrong way.

Active users should know what topics/content can be shared and what cannot. Topics/content that may or may not be in violation of the rules is known as the gray area. Newcomers should avoid the gray area until they observe the forums and have a good sense of what types of threads get locked. Mythics are more than welcome to post topics/content in the gray area, but you're doing so at your own risk.
This only seems to apply to a topic that has been already been posted in a similar form. Experience can only grant so much knowledge, and in some cases trying something new can be just as dangerous whether you're a new user or a veteran. I would say there's an unspoken rule of composure, but clearly that doesn't apply to all discussion. I suppose it would depend on the discussion matter as to whether or not we advocate users post in the gray area.

My suggestion would be to run your ideas by a moderator via PM. Although a moderator cannot "approve" posts, their words of wisdom will hopefully give you the clarification you need. Bungie's games are geared toward a 17+ audience, but this website is 13+. With that in mind, it doesn't surprise me that Bungie made changes to their guidelines. They want to keep things simple, but on the other hand, some things need to be clarified. Almost everything has pros and cons.There are certainly some rules that can be left in their general form, such as the foreign language rules, but the language of the current rules and the current Code of Conduct are worryingly unclear. Some people are even jerks all the time and yet I still haven't been banned!

The issue is that many users may desire to post in the gray area, and due to the limitations of the moderation team in both their numbers and human ability to respond to thousands of PMs, clarifying the rules would save much more effort that having each topic individually assessed in the long run.

  • 12.02.2012 10:29 PM PDT


Posted by: BobBQ
In other words, you want us to spell out what you can and can't do on this site because you can't be bothered to exercise your own faculties?

The rules have a clause that says "use common sense" for a reason.


You're the people enforcing the rules, not us.

"Common sense" (which, it is important to remember, does not actually exist) does not tell me what you would find objectionable. I might be perfectly fine with reading something that you find offensive.

You're asking us to read your mind, and labeling it "common sense". It's really not helpful.

  • 12.02.2012 11:12 PM PDT

Key

Common sense, as noted in this thread by the OP and others, is subjective and is different for each person. Let's say User X's common sense of what is allowed consists of Fish, Toaster, Xbox, Basketball, and Cat. On the other hand, Moderator Y's common sense of what is allowed consists of Fish, Toaster, Playstation, Basketball, and Dog. Now, if User X attempts to exercise the use of Fish, Toaster, or Basketball, Moderator Y will be fine with it and let User X go about his day. However, if User X decides to use Xbox, Moderator Y may or may not allow it, as it somewhat aligns with what they believe is OK since Xbox is similar to Playstation, but maybe they think it's just different enough to warrant a ban or warning.

Now, if User X is so unlucky as to use Cat, they're most certainly getting a ban. For whatever reason what they think is common sense and allowed is the exact opposite of what Moderator Y thinks is common sense and allowed.

But lets say Moderator Q(bix89) comes along and he thinks that Fish, Crab, Norway, Very Well Groomed Woman-like Hair, Xbox, and Cat are okay, then User X has no gray area to deal with, but him and the moderator have very different opinions on about half of the things that, for them, fall into the realm of common sense. User X has a 100% chance of getting banned if he goes into the wrong territory, and that's just how it works.

Subjectivity is as subjectivity does.

©

  • 12.02.2012 11:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

We're not going to start citing laws or ethics codes. The rules are intentionally vague, at the mandate of our hosts. This is how they want it, and our consistent advice is to stay out of the gray areas.

(which you already do anyway -- all you ever post is sarcastic comments in the Community Forum... why are you so interested in this?)

If you want a guideline as to what the gray areas are for the NSFW rule, use the same one that we've stated before in this forum: if you could see it in a PG-13 movie, it's okay. If you could only see it in an R movie, it's in the gray area. If you could only see it in an NC-17 movie, it's prohibited.

[Edited on 12.02.2012 11:42 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2012 11:41 PM PDT


Posted by: x Foman123 x
If you want a guideline as to what the gray areas are for the NSFW rule, use the same one that we've stated before in this forum: if you could see it in a PG-13 movie, it's okay. If you could only see it in an R movie, it's in the gray area. If you could only see it in an NC-17 movie, it's prohibited.


Nope.

A fair amount of sex talk, as well as drug references, are allowed in PG-13 movies. That last thread you warned me for falls perfectly within PG-13's guidelines: A drug reference, but with no drug use and with educational merit.

Let's try again, see if you are capable of giving us a guideline that actually means something. Be honest, please.

  • 12.03.2012 8:04 AM PDT

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Posted by: Duck duck DEATH
Posted by: edableshoe
Um dude OP, NSFW means Not Suitable For Work, as in, if your damn boss saw it on your damn computer, your damn ass would be god damn fired.



Jesus, you all really over analyze things that are quite simple. Damn. It isn't all that hard to understand, and there is no need to bring feds into this discussion, it has nothing to do with the rule.
But shoe, everyone's workplace is different. Currently, my boss is pretty lax about such things so long as they don't interfere with productivity. So NSFW would mean anything that interferes with productivity? So I can't discuss games or solitaire or minesweeper? I don't think this boss standard is a good idea, because that's really subjective.
Alright, if you know that everyone has differing bosses, then let's go with the most stringent and tight-assed boss for this example, and call it a day.


No need to get our collective panties in a collective knot over some silly rule on some silly website. We have better things to be concerned with, such as the slow and crushing iron fist of the governments of our world. There should be actions being taken to prevent the limitations of the internet, and the rights of a person. Why care what some private sector company wants to do on their own rightfully own plot of internet space, when the government sector wants to come in and tell you what you can and cannot do at all on the internet?


This silly bickering is just....too silly.

  • 12.03.2012 9:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: coolmike699
Posted by: x Foman123 x
If you want a guideline as to what the gray areas are for the NSFW rule, use the same one that we've stated before in this forum: if you could see it in a PG-13 movie, it's okay. If you could only see it in an R movie, it's in the gray area. If you could only see it in an NC-17 movie, it's prohibited.
Nope.

A fair amount of sex talk, as well as drug references, are allowed in PG-13 movies. That last thread you warned me for falls perfectly within PG-13's guidelines: A drug reference, but with no drug use and with educational merit.

Let's try again, see if you are capable of giving us a guideline that actually means something. Be honest, please.
I was talking about posts that are otherwise within the other forum rules, obviously.

  • 12.03.2012 10:11 AM PDT


Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: coolmike699
Posted by: x Foman123 x
If you want a guideline as to what the gray areas are for the NSFW rule, use the same one that we've stated before in this forum: if you could see it in a PG-13 movie, it's okay. If you could only see it in an R movie, it's in the gray area. If you could only see it in an NC-17 movie, it's prohibited.
Nope.

A fair amount of sex talk, as well as drug references, are allowed in PG-13 movies. That last thread you warned me for falls perfectly within PG-13's guidelines: A drug reference, but with no drug use and with educational merit.

Let's try again, see if you are capable of giving us a guideline that actually means something. Be honest, please.
I was talking about posts that are otherwise within the other forum rules, obviously.


I was assuming that you were saying that if it isn't PG-13, then it's probably against the rules.

So the "PG-13" suggestion is outside of the rules? It is in addition to the rules that we already have? How would a post be within the rules, but still R rated enough to tempt a ban?

You said: "If you want a guideline as to what the gray areas are for the NSFW rule, use the same one that we've stated before in this forum: if you could see it in a PG-13 movie, it's okay."

If we aren't allowed any sex talk, or drug references, what else is there? Language? We have the filter for that. Curse words are filtered already, which covers that. Is this referring to links to other sites? Not exactly obvious, is it?

  • 12.03.2012 10:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: coolmike699
So the "PG-13" suggestion is outside of the rules? It is in addition to the rules that we already have?
It's just a guideline, nothing official. And let's be clear, this is just me, not some kind of official moderator policy.

How would a post be within the rules, but still R rated enough to tempt a ban?There are numerous possible ways. For example, a thread in the Flood Forum saying "Who do you think is the hottest woman in the world?" and linking to a nude woman would be analogous to "R-rated" content and would tempt a ban.

If we aren't allowed any sex talk, or drug references, what else is there? Language? We have the filter for that. Curse words are filtered already, which covers that. Is this referring to links to other sites? Not exactly obvious, is it? Nobody ever said sex talk and drug references are prohibited. Just like a PG-13 movie, things like innuendo, non-explicit discussion, and references are generally not prohibited. In-depth discussions, explicit links, and explicit language are going to be in the gray area or prohibited, depending on what exactly it is we're talking about. Obviously, some curse words are not prohibited here.

References to drug use are not necessarily prohibited. In-depth discussions about drug use generally are.

[Edited on 12.03.2012 10:49 AM PST]

  • 12.03.2012 10:47 AM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

Posted by: x Foman123 x
(which you already do anyway -- all you ever post is sarcastic comments in the Community Forum... why are you so interested in this?)

Seven bucks says the entire point of this thread is to sound for exploitable loopholes.

  • 12.03.2012 1:09 PM PDT

In a time long past, the armies of the dark came again to the lands of men. Their leaders became known as the fallen lords, and their terrible sorcery was without equal in the west.
In 30 years they reduced the civilized nations into carrion and ash. Until the free city of Madrigal alone defined them. An army gathered there, and a desperate battle was joined against the fallen
Heros were born in the fire and bloodshed of the wars which followed and their names and deeds will never be forgotten


Posted by: BobBQ
Posted by: x Foman123 x
(which you already do anyway -- all you ever post is sarcastic comments in the Community Forum... why are you so interested in this?)

Seven bucks says the entire point of this thread is to sound for exploitable loopholes.


The rules are made to have loopholes for broad interpretation and to be not as tough.

  • 12.03.2012 1:11 PM PDT

@trueunderdog

Chapter

Narwhallace Smithington: Gone, but not forgotten. Never approve of anything lil guy. <3
Furious George: The new -blam!-

What Bungie means as common sense isn't too hard to figure out. The usual suspects seem to crave being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Personally, I'm going to moderate the way that I've been trusted to moderate and if it ruffles the feathers of those who choose to be obtuse, I'm ok with that.

I want to make sure that Bungie.net is a place where friendly, positive discussion can take place. It seems that most people can grasp the concept of common sense and what I mean by friendly, positive discussion. Those that get their jollies by skirting the line will either find themselves thrilled to be able to discuss their borderline naughty subjects, or they'll find themselves in time out.

  • 12.03.2012 1:22 PM PDT
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  • 12.03.2012 1:27 PM PDT

Please stop complaining about the 'death of a loved one' it's my job. They probably deserved it anyways. Here's a warning, if you keep making pentagrams out of the neighbors livestock I will personally come to your house and kill everyone you love. Now leave me alone, I got to get back to work.
~M.D~

If it's borderline Pg-13 Rated R then that is inappropriate

  • 12.03.2012 1:58 PM PDT

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