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  • Subject: Why do people think socialized healthcare is a good thing?
Subject: Why do people think socialized healthcare is a good thing?
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Posted by: DatDudeBV

Posted by: CND AAA Beef
Okay, I'll bite.

50.7 million Americans don't have health insurance.

Estimated US 2011 population: 311,591,917

Percentage of population without health insurance: 16%

In the world's largest economy, 16% of its population does not have access to affordable health care. In countries with socialized health care, all you have to do is sign up for a health card, which takes about an hour. And that's it, you have full access to primary care anywhere in your province/country.


Who pays for that 16%'s healthcare?

Me.

My taxes are high enough. Sorry, I already give 30-40% of my paycheck away. I dont want to give anymore away.
Spread the cost over the other 311,591,916 people. I doubt your tax increases would be notably more than your current insurance premiums.

Besides, our income tax rates are pretty close. The difference is in consumption taxes.

  • 12.06.2012 4:44 PM PDT

If we disagree, it's nothing personal, opinions are opinions.
Antagonizing me to build a false sense of worth is so damn cute.

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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: DatDudeBV

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: Distant Dawn

If someone cant afford their healthcare, they're probably not contributing much.


This is a dangerous way of thinking.

Just because someone doesn't make as much money, doesn't mean they have any fewer rights than you or I do.


So if someone doesnt make as much money, should they be able to walk into the walmart and have whatever they want?


Except people don't choose to become sick.

You choose what job you want, you choose what you buy, etc. Those are your decisions and yours alone, and you accept whatever responsibilities and punishments that come with it.

But being sick/injured is different. It's outside your control.

You can't deny someone the right to life for things that are outside their control.

This.

  • 12.06.2012 4:46 PM PDT

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Use your head. The one on your shoulders. No really, just try. Please?

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Posted by: DatDudeBV
Sorry, I already give 30-40% of my paycheck away. I dont want to give anymore away.

If you're in the United States, and you're paying that high of a tax rate, you're either doing it wrong or riding on the backs of the poor and uninsured. Change your deductions or quote the statistic of your effective yearly tax rate after deductions and credits and what not.

I'm getting 23% of my income withheld for taxes on state and federal level, with an additional 5% of my income going to insurance. And at the end of the year I will get a refund, lowering the effective tax rate.

  • 12.06.2012 4:47 PM PDT

Es ist Zeit für einige Gefahr-pay


Posted by: DatDudeBV

Posted by: Sgt Drifter

Posted by: DatDudeBV

Posted by: Sgt Drifter

The other issue is those like you who have this stupid idea in their heads that everyone, or even the smallest majority of people who can't afford basic needs don't work or live wastefully.

You have no idea what you are talking about and you should hang your head in shame with those generalisations.


I dont? I grew up in Innercity Philly. Ive seen thousands of people abuse the system.


Not thousands, no. Hundreds? I'll give you that.

Still, that is merely a fraction of the entire population that is in the same boat and a grossly incorrect generalisation you have made.


No, it was thousands. And that was just around me.

Theres probably a million people abusing the system.


Probably is a bad assumption, facts are needed.

  • 12.06.2012 4:48 PM PDT

Because unlike some idiots, the rest of us realize that people have a universal right to life.

  • 12.06.2012 4:48 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.

Here's what I think.

Our current system is broken. There are many aspects of it, the main one being the insane costs of care.

Is socialized healthcare the answer? I'm not sure. America is considerably different from its European counterparts, the biggest difference being population.
I think we should examine the strongest country in Europe right now; Germany. Even in this time of trouble, it had a surplus in the first half of 2012.

Basically, there are private insurers funded by the government with very tight regulation, so the end results benefit the people and not the employers wallet.
In Germany, statutory health insurance is financed by a payroll tax. This covers like 90% of the population. These funds then go to 200 something private insurance companies who then dish out the insurance.

It works great for them. The regulations ensure that the people get the benefits, and the presence of private companies creates competition.

[Edited on 12.06.2012 5:07 PM PST]

  • 12.06.2012 5:05 PM PDT


Posted by: Distant Dawn

Posted by: Sgt Drifter
The quality is not horrible by any means.

I can't believe you are stupid enough to even suggest this.

More people die from not being able to afford healthcare than because they are on a waiting list.

I can't argue against an opinion that has no factual basis.

I like how you resort to name calling because you're not smart enough to make valid claims. The fact of the matter is Canadian healthcare is worse that American healthcare, and that's still regarding the fact that your taxes are significantly higher to support that failed system. More people may die, but at least people who can afford healthcare are guaranteed valid care instead of a long wait time for lower quality healthcare.

I'm canadian and I've gotta say, that is really wrong. Us Canadians love socialism healthcare, and we constantly laugh at you you americans.

  • 12.06.2012 5:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: George S Patton

Posted by: Distant Dawn

Posted by: Sgt Drifter
The quality is not horrible by any means.

I can't believe you are stupid enough to even suggest this.

More people die from not being able to afford healthcare than because they are on a waiting list.

I can't argue against an opinion that has no factual basis.

I like how you resort to name calling because you're not smart enough to make valid claims. The fact of the matter is Canadian healthcare is worse that American healthcare, and that's still regarding the fact that your taxes are significantly higher to support that failed system. More people may die, but at least people who can afford healthcare are guaranteed valid care instead of a long wait time for lower quality healthcare.

I'm canadian and I've gotta say, that is really wrong. Us Canadians love socialism healthcare, and we constantly laugh at you you americans.
We like the equity behind it. I've worked a stint in health care, and their is much that needs to change within the system to solve some of its flaws.

However, I find it hard to understand why so many Americans cling to the half-truths and outright lies tossed out by Republicans and other right wingers who can't even locate Canada on a map!

  • 12.06.2012 6:01 PM PDT

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Posted by: DarkSunnyboy1
Posted by: Sgt Drifter
So you think we should turn down healthcare because they have no money?

Grow up kiddy.

I said that where?

And what?
You implied it which was very stupid.

  • 12.06.2012 6:05 PM PDT

I get free health care from University of Michigan but before that getting care was a disaster.

  • 12.06.2012 6:06 PM PDT

they are both bad options. Socialist medicine cant afford real tools, and American medicine is over priced I say there needs to be a middle ground

  • 12.06.2012 6:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: Gottalovec4
Oh, and finally! Since we're $16 trillion in debt and have no money in the budget for such a plan, the only solution is to take $600 billion from the Medicare budget (not that the money was there in the first place). Meaning that the money that was supposed to pay for Grandma's knee replacement will be going to pay for the crack head's visit to the ER because he cut himself on a beer bottle. Great.

MFW

Blame the victim! They are responsible for their own suffering and it is not our duty to help them!

  • 12.06.2012 6:08 PM PDT

I have moral qualms with just seeing health care as another economic transaction. In fact, I hold issue with money being involved with it at all.

Healthcare is not like other services. I can choose to buy a computer, I can choose to buy a hamburger, and I can choose to buy a book. These are voluntary transactions made through free will.

With healthcare, you will die or your life will constantly be of an objectively lower quality, if you do not receive the service. No other consumer choice will directly affects you to such an extent. People have to be psychopathic to claim that it is just like any other service.

"It's great for the people that can afford it!" If this is your argument, you are a disgusting excuse for a human being.

[Edited on 12.06.2012 6:53 PM PST]

  • 12.06.2012 6:51 PM PDT

OBONGO 2012, -blam!-ES! HOORAW!

I'm not even gonna bother going through this thread. I can predict it's full of nothing but butthurt Libtards.

lol, keep it up Flood. The Libtard tears get me hard. This is why I always come back...

  • 12.06.2012 6:53 PM PDT

They don't. They just voted for Obama becuase he's black and Obama wants a fascism government

  • 12.06.2012 6:54 PM PDT
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This Day is Going to Be Perfect

Well if that were the case then Canada, Norway, France, Sweden and many other countries wit socialized Healthcare would be destroyed economically. But they're not. Hell some are doing better then the US.

  • 12.06.2012 6:56 PM PDT

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Works for Australia just fine.

  • 12.06.2012 6:57 PM PDT


Posted by: Queen Chrysalis
Well if that were the case then Canada, Norway, France, Sweden and many other countries wit socialized Healthcare would be destroyed economically. But they're not. Hell some are doing better then the US.
they reason the US is in heavy debt is becuase people want they government to pay for everything

  • 12.06.2012 6:58 PM PDT
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lol

  • 12.06.2012 6:58 PM PDT

I think healthcare should be the same for everyone to a certain extent. If you pay a large amount, or have some uber benifits, you should be able to get even moar better ductors and medichienes.

k?

  • 12.06.2012 7:00 PM PDT

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Hello.


Posted by: Distant Dawn

Posted by: A Blind Wolf

Posted by: Distant Dawn
Explain, because based on economics, it's not a very wise decision.


Prove how it isn't a wise decision. You provide NO proof for your claim. Canada has it and they're doing fantastic. Explain that, retard.

And now you look like an idiot.


Coming from USNews, a biased news resource.

  • 12.06.2012 7:01 PM PDT


Posted by: Savage Opress

Posted by: Queen Chrysalis
Well if that were the case then Canada, Norway, France, Sweden and many other countries wit socialized Healthcare would be destroyed economically. But they're not. Hell some are doing better then the US.
they reason the US is in heavy debt is becuase people want they government to pay for everything

There are a lot of reasons the US is in debt.

That isn't one of them.

  • 12.06.2012 7:01 PM PDT

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Posted by: Gottalovec4
I am very nearly at the end of a college degree in Economics. Explain why Economics dictates that socialised healthcare is a bad thing, and then rationalise that against the empirical realities of healthcare quality in the US (both raw and per $ spent) compared to other countries which have socialised systems (just so you know, US healthcare provision is empirically worse)[/quote]

Because the current reason why costs are so rediculously high in the US is that over regulation in the markets is driving up price, the most major cause being that insurance companies can't trade over state lines.

This in turn means that companies have far less competition, and as such, less customers, and much raise prices in order to gain enough revenue to stay in business.

Meanwhile, if a government run health program goes into effect, they don't have to deal with their insane regulation, because they invented it, and as such can easily under sell any private insurance or healthcare company. Thus, people go to the fed instead of a private company, which then goes out of business, or faces severe losses in revenue, and must either shut down, or fire a large amount of it's workers, leading to rapid increases in unemployment.

Effectively, it kills the private market.

So, the government over regulates something, driving up cost, then decides the only way to fix the over regulation is to regulate the over regulation.

Oh, and finally! Since we're $16 trillion in debt and have no money in the budget for such a plan, the only solution is to take $600 billion from the Medicare budget (not that the money was there in the first place). Meaning that the money that was supposed to pay for Grandma's knee replacement will be going to pay for the crack head's visit to the ER because he cut himself on a beer bottle. Great.

What kills the idea of socialized healthcare is that if the government would step back instead of raising predatory regulation, companies would have lower costs of care and more people could be insured. Believe it or not, corporations and companies are not evil fat cats who would run over their own parents for a dime. In fact, companies thrive on something called "reputation". If a company has a bad one, people won't buy stuff from them.

Companies would LOVE to adopt plans of people with pre-existing conditions, companies would love to pay 100% of someone's medical bill, it leads to good publicity. Unfortunately, they can't, because Uncle Sam is charging them so much for even existing.

And funnily enough, this is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT we're talking about here. Tried to file your income taxes lately? We really want the same group that recently filed a Report about Reports about Reports handling your health care? Really? How is this better and more efficient than letting people with DEGREES in business do it?

If you answered yes, then fine, whatever, I give up.



Ding ding ding. We have a winner.



Posted by: Scoopicus

There are a lot of reasons the US is in debt.

That isn't one of them.


Actually, yes, it is. We have an incredible amount of "entitlement" spending that we simply cannot afford.

  • 12.06.2012 7:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: Gottalovec4
the only solution is to take $600 billion from the Medicare budget


Why not take it from that massively bloated military budget?

  • 12.06.2012 7:08 PM PDT