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  • Subject: Why do people think socialized healthcare is a good thing?
Subject: Why do people think socialized healthcare is a good thing?
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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I would think keeping your citizens alive falls under "Promote the general welfare."


"Promote the general welfare" does not translate to "Give them Socialist Healthcare and entitlements," no it says "promote," as in, give things like Medical Insurance and incentive to actually give medical insurance. Removing cross-state business of medical insurance drives prices up. Medical insurance companies are limited to a few demographics within a state. Can you imagine trying to be successful as a health insurance company in Montana? While having to maintain competition? It's hard, all because they can't cover people in Montana and Wyoming. All the regulation is choking insurance companies, and driving the cost up.

Removing these regulations is the best way to make coverage more available and thus, Healthcare.

  • 12.06.2012 7:56 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Now, these are just 3 reasons why costs are so high. There are hundreds more. I won't say that I am for or against socialized medicine. I am saying our system is breaking, and we should be discussing ways to fix it, and looking at the problems with it.


Exactly what I'm saying. Our system is broken and we need to fix it.
(Not saying socialized medicine is the answer)

Charlie, have you ever taken a look at the German health care system?

  • 12.06.2012 7:56 PM PDT

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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Now, these are just 3 reasons why costs are so high. There are hundreds more. I won't say that I am for or against socialized medicine. I am saying our system is breaking, and we should be discussing ways to fix it, and looking at the problems with it.


Exactly what I'm saying. Our system is broken and we need to fix it.
(Not saying socialized medicine is the answer)

Charlie, have you ever taken a look at the German health care system?
Yes. As a part of my MBA we looked at a few. If I remember correctly, the Germans have a hybrid system that is clinic heavy. (meaning small clinics instead of giant hospitals)

  • 12.06.2012 7:58 PM PDT

Es ist Zeit für einige Gefahr-pay


Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie
Somehow I don't think people understand how socialized medicine actually works. Most of your posts make that pretty clear. Looking this thread over, and I see the most intelligent posts look like they are written by 20 year olds, to the worst looking like they are from 12 year olds.

The actual problem with any healthcare system is waste. People are willing to pay more for a system that works. The problem is that too few systems around the world work. From the "Barefoot Medics" (roaming nurses) in China, to the NHS is the UK. And the US system somewhere mixed in that.

Some facts about the US system:

Its inefficient. There is very little communication between the payment organizations and the doctors themselves. When there is, the communication doesn't work because you find doctors talking about procedures to high school drop outs. This adds time between the services rendered and payment for those services. Doctors have to keep their lights on, so they jack the rates up to cover this. It also leads to miscommunications, which causes people to get billed for the wrong things, and things not to be covered.

Not Everyone is covered. We still treat these patients. The hospitals can't turn anyone away from an ER. Its a law. When they dodge their bill, where do you suppose that money gets pulled from? Do you think the hospital eats the cost? Nope, they pass it along in higher prices. That's why a $3 catheter gets billed at $300. Those higher prices get passed to the insurance companies, and then on to the consumer.

Hospital Administration often times don't know what happens in their hospitals. It sounds strange, but often there are 2 or more organizations within one hospital building. I don't mean small solo practitioners or specialists. I mean different departments with different administrations. This often mean they don't communicate between the two (or more) sides. That often leads to doubled costs, as they take care of their own resources. Not to mention the payroll...

Now, these are just 3 reasons why costs are so high. There are hundreds more. I won't say that I am for or against socialized medicine. I am saying our system is breaking, and we should be discussing ways to fix it, and looking at the problems with it.

I do like this thread, as it keeps the conversation going. The problem is that the mix of ignorance and anonymity will mean it will inevitably get locked for some reason. That's too bad.


Adding to that, medicare also only pays something like 60 cents on the dollar (it may be less, not sure of the number of the top of my head)... passing more of the cost onto everyone else.

If they don't, then hospitals cannot remain open. In fact, as the system is right now; it is predicted that 1 in every 6 hospitals will close, further restricting availability of healthcare.

The system NEEDS a massive overhaul.

[Edited on 12.06.2012 8:01 PM PST]

  • 12.06.2012 7:59 PM PDT

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Posted by: A Blind Wolf

Posted by: Distant Dawn
Explain, because based on economics, it's not a very wise decision.


Prove how it isn't a wise decision. You provide NO proof for your claim. Canada has it and they're doing fantastic. Explain that, retard.

Ha! HAHAHA!!!

Good one. Yeah, Canada definitely has a great health care system. Totally!

Oh wait, u wur srs?

*backs away*

  • 12.06.2012 7:59 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: ErranInfigo

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I would think keeping your citizens alive falls under "Promote the general welfare."


"Promote the general welfare" does not translate to "Give them Socialist Healthcare and entitlements,"


What a huge leap in logic.

I am not saying socialized health care is the answer, nor am I condemning it.

However, in our current system, there are 75,000 unnecessary deaths a year from the flaws of our health care system.

It is the job of the states, and the Feds, to keep their citizens alive. We need to revamp our system.

[Edited on 12.06.2012 8:01 PM PST]

  • 12.06.2012 7:59 PM PDT

Es ist Zeit für einige Gefahr-pay


Posted by: Egerspurge
Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: Egerspurge
Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
2. Every person has the rights to life, liberty, and property.


How is healthcare apart of that?


Life.

The right to live.


Cheeseburgers help keep me alive. Do I have a right to cheeseburgers now?


That is one of the dumbest "arguments" you could have made, congratulations.

  • 12.06.2012 8:00 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Now, these are just 3 reasons why costs are so high. There are hundreds more. I won't say that I am for or against socialized medicine. I am saying our system is breaking, and we should be discussing ways to fix it, and looking at the problems with it.


Exactly what I'm saying. Our system is broken and we need to fix it.
(Not saying socialized medicine is the answer)

Charlie, have you ever taken a look at the German health care system?
Yes. As a part of my MBA we looked at a few. If I remember correctly, the Germans have a hybrid system that is clinic heavy. (meaning small clinics instead of giant hospitals)


Basically there's a payroll tax that funds private insurance companies with heavy regulation. It supposedly works very well.

  • 12.06.2012 8:01 PM PDT

Studies show that men think about sex every 7 seconds. I do my best to eat hotdogs in under 6, just so things don't get weird.

Please allow me to introduce Myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith


Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Now, these are just 3 reasons why costs are so high. There are hundreds more. I won't say that I am for or against socialized medicine. I am saying our system is breaking, and we should be discussing ways to fix it, and looking at the problems with it.


Exactly what I'm saying. Our system is broken and we need to fix it.
(Not saying socialized medicine is the answer)

Charlie, have you ever taken a look at the German health care system?
Yes. As a part of my MBA we looked at a few. If I remember correctly, the Germans have a hybrid system that is clinic heavy. (meaning small clinics instead of giant hospitals)


Basically there's a payroll tax that funds private insurance companies with heavy regulation. It supposedly works very well.
Like I said, a hybrid.

A Privately funded single payer system.

The Japanese do something similar. The funny part is, our most conservative capitalists set both countries up this way after WWII. Yet we abandoned it for what we have.

  • 12.06.2012 8:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: ErranInfigo

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I would think keeping your citizens alive falls under "Promote the general welfare."


"Promote the general welfare" does not translate to "Give them Socialist Healthcare and entitlements,"


What a huge leap in logic.

I am not saying socialized health care is the answer, nor am I condemning it.

However, in our current system, there are 75,000 unnecessary deaths a year from the flaws of our health care system.

It is the job of the states, and the Feds, to keep their citizens alive. We need to revamp our system.


Did you read the rest of my post? Of course it needs to be reformed. Giving the Health Insurance companies more room to compete is only one step in the process of making our healthcare better, among many more steps.

For instance, there needs to be better communication. My father is a PAX administrator at a hospital system in Tulsa and before then he was a Senior Systems Administrator in Salinas at Natividad Medical Center. He always told me how there is a huge disconnect between himself and the doctors and he was the one who made sure the medical records were being converted to digital and that the medical staff had access to them. He was in constant communication with the administration of the hospital, but the administration wasn't in good contact with the county (which ran the hospital) and the medical staff was not in good contact with the administration. It was a blubbering mess. He would come home talking about how the medical staff wasn't even talking to him about how to access medical servers, one nurse even wiped medical data from a server (some several thousand records) because she didn't ask how to access it, and did not know who to ask.

That's just one problem, we probably have hundreds.

  • 12.06.2012 8:15 PM PDT

Posted by: BOB THE DOCTER
People > figures

This, plus the facts man. The objectively best healthcare systems in the world are socialized. You can't argue with that.

  • 12.06.2012 8:17 PM PDT

Covan was here, December 20th.

Come back later, after he's out of Parris Island.

This stupid thread is still alive?

We need to kill this noise.

  • 12.06.2012 8:17 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.

I wonder how Bobcast feels about all this.

  • 12.06.2012 8:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lil Taco 117
Posted by: BOB THE DOCTER
People > figures

This, plus the facts man. The objectively best healthcare systems in the world are socialized. You can't argue with that.


Germany and Japan don't have socialized healthcare systems. They have a hybrid of the US Healthcare system, which gives good care, but at a high cost, and the Socialist Healthcare system, low cost, but really -blam!- long wait times that get people killed.

The Germans and Japanese manage to get the low cost of the Socialized system, but the good care of our system. Neither one is good on it's own.

EDIT: Our system doesn't work mainly because there is a disconnect on all sides. Government is interfering too much, Insurance companies don't listen to hospitals, and hospital staff doesn't communicate with hospital staff.

[Edited on 12.06.2012 8:21 PM PST]

  • 12.06.2012 8:20 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: ErranInfigo

Posted by: Lil Taco 117
Posted by: BOB THE DOCTER
People > figures

This, plus the facts man. The objectively best healthcare systems in the world are socialized. You can't argue with that.


Germany and Japan don't have socialized healthcare systems. They have a hybrid of the US Healthcare system, which gives good care, but at a high cost, and the Socialist Healthcare system, low cost, but really -blam!- long wait times that get people killed.

The Germans and Japanese manage to get the low cost of the Socialized system, but the good care of our system. Neither one is good on it's own.

EDIT: Our system doesn't work mainly because there is a disconnect on all sides. Government is interfering too much, Insurance companies don't listen to hospitals, and hospital staff doesn't communicate with hospital staff.


And the insurance companies screw over their patients however and whenever they can. Remember that huge -blam!--storm a few years ago about pre-existing conditions?

  • 12.06.2012 8:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
A real test of a man is if he is willing to scrape a sharpened razor up and down his junk just to please a woman.

Rose, just stop.

  • 12.06.2012 8:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie
Somehow I don't think people understand how socialized medicine actually works. Most of your posts make that pretty clear. Looking this thread over, and I see the most intelligent posts look like they are written by 20 year olds, to the worst looking like they are from 12 year olds.

The actual problem with any healthcare system is waste. People are willing to pay more for a system that works. The problem is that too few systems around the world work. From the "Barefoot Medics" (roaming nurses) in China, to the NHS is the UK. And the US system somewhere mixed in that.

Some facts about the US system:

Its inefficient. There is very little communication between the payment organizations and the doctors themselves. When there is, the communication doesn't work because you find doctors talking about procedures to high school drop outs. This adds time between the services rendered and payment for those services. Doctors have to keep their lights on, so they jack the rates up to cover this. It also leads to miscommunications, which causes people to get billed for the wrong things, and things not to be covered.

Not Everyone is covered. We still treat these patients. The hospitals can't turn anyone away from an ER. Its a law. When they dodge their bill, where do you suppose that money gets pulled from? Do you think the hospital eats the cost? Nope, they pass it along in higher prices. That's why a $3 catheter gets billed at $300. Those higher prices get passed to the insurance companies, and then on to the consumer.

Hospital Administration often times don't know what happens in their hospitals. It sounds strange, but often there are 2 or more organizations within one hospital building. I don't mean small solo practitioners or specialists. I mean different departments with different administrations. This often mean they don't communicate between the two (or more) sides. That often leads to doubled costs, as they take care of their own resources. Not to mention the payroll...

Now, these are just 3 reasons why costs are so high. There are hundreds more. I won't say that I am for or against socialized medicine. I am saying our system is breaking, and we should be discussing ways to fix it, and looking at the problems with it.

I do like this thread, as it keeps the conversation going. The problem is that the mix of ignorance and anonymity will mean it will inevitably get locked for some reason. That's too bad.

No mention of the overtesting doctors do to avoid malpractice lawsuits? No mention of spending thousands on saving an aging patient who didn't have long to live before the hospitalization?

  • 12.06.2012 8:24 PM PDT

Studies show that men think about sex every 7 seconds. I do my best to eat hotdogs in under 6, just so things don't get weird.

Please allow me to introduce Myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith


Posted by: Methew

No mention of the overtesting doctors do to avoid malpractice lawsuits? No mention of spending thousands on saving an aging patient who didn't have long to live before the hospitalization?
Like I said, JUST 3 of the reasons. There really are hundreds. The three I listed are in the top offenders.

  • 12.06.2012 8:26 PM PDT
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  • Legendary Member


Posted by: Garem
0/10

This.

You're trying too hard, Rose.

[Edited on 12.06.2012 8:27 PM PST]

  • 12.06.2012 8:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: ErranInfigo

Posted by: Lil Taco 117
Posted by: BOB THE DOCTER
People > figures

This, plus the facts man. The objectively best healthcare systems in the world are socialized. You can't argue with that.


Germany and Japan don't have socialized healthcare systems. They have a hybrid of the US Healthcare system, which gives good care, but at a high cost, and the Socialist Healthcare system, low cost, but really -blam!- long wait times that get people killed.

The Germans and Japanese manage to get the low cost of the Socialized system, but the good care of our system. Neither one is good on it's own.

EDIT: Our system doesn't work mainly because there is a disconnect on all sides. Government is interfering too much, Insurance companies don't listen to hospitals, and hospital staff doesn't communicate with hospital staff.


And the insurance companies screw over their patients however and whenever they can. Remember that huge -blam!--storm a few years ago about pre-existing conditions?


They aren't evil you know. They have to make money and making money involves having a good image. Since they are so restricted to one state, they have to make money somehow, and someone who gets health coverage because they suddenly got cancer is going to rob the company of money. Their goal IS to make money, but not at the cost of our lives if they can help it.

  • 12.06.2012 8:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Posted by: Methew

No mention of the overtesting doctors do to avoid malpractice lawsuits? No mention of spending thousands on saving an aging patient who didn't have long to live before the hospitalization?
Like I said, JUST 3 of the reasons. There really are hundreds. The three I listed are in the top offenders.

I'm inclined to argue differently but there really isn't much point to that.

AARP apparently reports that there is $765 billion in wasted money.

  • 12.06.2012 8:30 PM PDT

Please do not send me group invites.

Healthcare shouldn't be a for-profit industry.

  • 12.06.2012 8:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: Methew

Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Posted by: Methew

No mention of the overtesting doctors do to avoid malpractice lawsuits? No mention of spending thousands on saving an aging patient who didn't have long to live before the hospitalization?
Like I said, JUST 3 of the reasons. There really are hundreds. The three I listed are in the top offenders.

I'm inclined to argue differently but there really isn't much point to that.

AARP apparently reports that there is $765 billion in wasted money.


I believe he mentioned inefficiency.

  • 12.06.2012 8:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: ErranInfigo

Posted by: Methew

Posted by: MyNameIsCharlie

Posted by: Methew

No mention of the overtesting doctors do to avoid malpractice lawsuits? No mention of spending thousands on saving an aging patient who didn't have long to live before the hospitalization?
Like I said, JUST 3 of the reasons. There really are hundreds. The three I listed are in the top offenders.

I'm inclined to argue differently but there really isn't much point to that.

AARP apparently reports that there is $765 billion in wasted money.


I believe he mentioned inefficiency.

They said that overtesting accounts for the biggest waste of money out of that $765 bill at $210 billion.

In the end me and Charlie are arguing over which color a particular shade of red is.

Me: Rogue.
Charlie: Russet.
Me: WTF? No.
Charlie: It's totally Russet.

[Edited on 12.06.2012 8:35 PM PST]

  • 12.06.2012 8:34 PM PDT

You got stuck by FalconStickr

It would work a lot better than the system we have now. I support socialized medicine and while it has flaws it has great perks to it. You mean to tell me our system is so great? Where have you been?

  • 12.06.2012 8:35 PM PDT